Has anyone ever met an original scarf without the copyright sign? Model Le rosee did not always have C sign. I think there will be a few more models. When someone is doing such a good fake with signatures, ideal print, material,even weight, why not print C on this fake? I think it's may be original scarv. Maybe you know some good websites with information about it?
Reference: Guide to Hermes Scarves
- Thread starter jag
- Start date
TPF may earn a commission from merchant affiliate
links, including eBay, Amazon, and others
Yes, Hermes has printed scarves & failed to copyright them, more so for the oldies than for today.
On the subject of modern 90cm twills ONLY eg after 2012, in the last five years or so
I cant think of an example of a recent scarf, that hit the stores without a copyright (but of course, as soon as I finish typing I will remember ...) so, I would compromise and say uncopyrighted scarves today are rare - less than 1 %, allowing the possibility (since it has happened so often in the past ..)
What is far more common, is that people cannot FIND the copyright on a scarf & thus they claim it is uncopyrighted, copyrights are small, they are not in the same place on scarves, busy designs are very busy and people cannot find the copyright, different issues are copyrighted in different styles and locations on the silk
In authentication, more than once, I have seen panic due to a buyer of a modern scarf who was unable to find a copyright that was on the scarf
All of that applies only to recent 90cm twill scarves, eg after 2012, older scarves are different, there is a different story for each decade of production and other sizes and fabrics (dip dye, mousse, cashmere etc.) are a different story.
As to fakes, yes there are copies without logo, title or copyright. IMHO that is due to Chinese copyrighting laws, a manufacturer can get by under Chinese law with printing a copy as long as it lacks logo, title or whatever. There was a story, years ago that Hermès had trouble copyrighting its name in China - there are many variants of the name in China (depending on Western alphabet, Chinese characters or whatever ) and some of the variants are not copyrighted by Hermès Paris. Or so, I remember, but I am not an expert on Chinese copyright laws nor on the Chinese market. Maybe someone has more solid information than I do ... since I only have a vague recollection
It came to me , an example of recent uncopyrighted scarf ? I don't own a lalbhai but other tpfers have searched theirs and failed to find a copyright
Yes , very busy design , not in 90 cm , but one where I have an independent confirmation of the lack of a cp
Yes , very busy design , not in 90 cm , but one where I have an independent confirmation of the lack of a cp
Just now seeking info re. the Barcarolle/Toulon scarf, as for year of issue, and came across your post. I have one with a yellowy/verging on mustardy border, and I can't find a copyright sign on it. Piwigo lists it from 1950-60'ies, so if that is correct it means copyrighting would have started later than that.
Is this the design you mean? First of all, very cool design. This image is from Fontain book called carres d'art II
It shows first issued in 1961.
Wow - I am amazed - yes, this is it in a different CW - mine has a cream background and and hints of navy blue and purplishy accents. I love this scarf - very soft hand - sadly a ripped thread but no big deal. Too dark to take photo now, but can try tomorrow. So nice to know a date, thank you so much for taking the trouble to post it
Haha! Yes, I noticed that!PS: One of the fishing boats is called Bouillabaise
Sorry about the wrinkly state of the scarf, just about to start trying to pick up a loose thread - not bad for a 1961 scarf though :-
Regarding Coqs - see authentication thread & post 2208 above, it is an older scarf
Many scarves, Coqs included are known with various types and locations of changed copyrights, borders changes, title changes etc. The screens were modified to make the change, and the design was reprinted. As your post stated Coqs was not «resumed» (read: reissued) yet, all the variants exist - it was undeniably reprinted
Ca 2008 , Hermes talked of - recolorations - more cws of same design and reissues - an oldie trotted resurrected for a new collection. Vif Argent was done in the fall and winter seasons of 2007 - fair to say the fall issues were recolorations. Passementerie was redone in 2007 after a long rest, fair to call that a reissue. BUT that was 2008 ...and things have changed ...
Ca 2017, What does one call all the millions of variants of Ex Libris & Brides de Gala - fleuries, tattoo, cravates, kimonos etc etc are they reissues ??? Surely not recolorations ... Discuss... And does a dip dye version of BdG count was a reissue ?? Recoloration ? in the 2017SS collection
Yes, some of the store books - not for the public - triage designs into new and recoloration categories - but these are not widely available ...
My point is that the old designs have been reprinted since time immemorial with more or less changes in the reprint.
The concept of reissues/recolorations/reprint is quite fluid - my friend and I both look at the same list for 2017SS and have different opinions which were «reissues», she counts only one, I count 6 designs that are derivative of older designs
It is complicated, but to me, it is undeniable that many of the supposedly never reissued deigns were reprinted
Many scarves, Coqs included are known with various types and locations of changed copyrights, borders changes, title changes etc. The screens were modified to make the change, and the design was reprinted. As your post stated Coqs was not «resumed» (read: reissued) yet, all the variants exist - it was undeniably reprinted
Ca 2008 , Hermes talked of - recolorations - more cws of same design and reissues - an oldie trotted resurrected for a new collection. Vif Argent was done in the fall and winter seasons of 2007 - fair to say the fall issues were recolorations. Passementerie was redone in 2007 after a long rest, fair to call that a reissue. BUT that was 2008 ...and things have changed ...
Ca 2017, What does one call all the millions of variants of Ex Libris & Brides de Gala - fleuries, tattoo, cravates, kimonos etc etc are they reissues ??? Surely not recolorations ... Discuss... And does a dip dye version of BdG count was a reissue ?? Recoloration ? in the 2017SS collection
Yes, some of the store books - not for the public - triage designs into new and recoloration categories - but these are not widely available ...
My point is that the old designs have been reprinted since time immemorial with more or less changes in the reprint.
The concept of reissues/recolorations/reprint is quite fluid - my friend and I both look at the same list for 2017SS and have different opinions which were «reissues», she counts only one, I count 6 designs that are derivative of older designs
It is complicated, but to me, it is undeniable that many of the supposedly never reissued deigns were reprinted
So, when I understood correctly, it is an authentic prototype (I guess it could be 1967) ... I'm impressed. Where do you get such precise knowledge? I am looking and looking and find nothing .... Thank you very much for your comment.
This scarf impressed me. It's so ugly that it's beautiful. Sorry for my English, I know it's tragic.
I am not sure what you mean by prototype ... sorry to split hairs ... to me a prototype is an early version , also called a test printing , that may differ from the final product
Coqs is not a prototype in that sense, I believe it was just a reprint with a slight change to the copyright , hermes printed the scarf but slightly differently
I like the word reprint for that , the word reissue has too much baggage attached to it ,
Yes, I am totally splitting hairs on definitions ....
Coqs is not a prototype in that sense, I believe it was just a reprint with a slight change to the copyright , hermes printed the scarf but slightly differently
I like the word reprint for that , the word reissue has too much baggage attached to it ,
Yes, I am totally splitting hairs on definitions ....
Where do I get my knowledge ?
1 . Years of interest since I was little when mothers came to pick class mates while wearing scarves
2. Vast library , mostly difficult to find / rare books, mostly in French but some in Japanese ! , Italian , ex I have old books on hunting and they cover many of the hunting scarves or books on the Lyon silk industry that also touch on the subject
3 Lots of hard work going through old french magazines , lots of old copies of scarf booklets and Le Monde d Hermes , each magazine has very little but if you read enough of them .... there are 80 years of scarves and I have 80 years of magazine articles
4 I collect photos from the internet and am rather meticulous about recording when and where info came from , I put metadata on all the photos so they can be searched
5 I organize what I have and I am good at that , plus I speak several languages
Basically, I got the information the hard way, by research , you won't find the information already put together for you . Hermes chooses not to publish it and now intellectual property laws make it impossible to put the info out on a public forum , ex photocopies of book pages for my own private use is ok but not for general dissemination
1 . Years of interest since I was little when mothers came to pick class mates while wearing scarves
2. Vast library , mostly difficult to find / rare books, mostly in French but some in Japanese ! , Italian , ex I have old books on hunting and they cover many of the hunting scarves or books on the Lyon silk industry that also touch on the subject
3 Lots of hard work going through old french magazines , lots of old copies of scarf booklets and Le Monde d Hermes , each magazine has very little but if you read enough of them .... there are 80 years of scarves and I have 80 years of magazine articles
4 I collect photos from the internet and am rather meticulous about recording when and where info came from , I put metadata on all the photos so they can be searched
5 I organize what I have and I am good at that , plus I speak several languages
Basically, I got the information the hard way, by research , you won't find the information already put together for you . Hermes chooses not to publish it and now intellectual property laws make it impossible to put the info out on a public forum , ex photocopies of book pages for my own private use is ok but not for general dissemination
This is why I love you.