Scarves Hermès Carrés d’art lV: Classic Scarves- edits & discussion

[turfnsurf]

Yes, thanks! I just copy-pasted from our conversation.



I think there was one that was not embroidered at all -- I am sure I saw one in the boutique that was not exceptional. Let me know if I am mistaken.



Thanks!



Thanks for these examples -- very helpful. The Thalassa with dots was a Comme des Garcons special edition.

I am pretty sure I have seen l'Elegance et le Confort en Automobile in CA3... perhaps under a different name?

I don't know re: the alphabetizing rules. Perhaps there were enough non-French speakers using the book who were confused. My understanding is that it is standard to do things the way it is done in the 3rd edition. Interestingly, the Chinese version is gone, so perhaps those readers are not from China...

Shoot- you’re right on l’Elegance et le Confort en Automobile - it’s listed under shortened name Confort en Automobile. Apologies, I thought I had looked in index for other possibilities, but it was late... clearly I missed it.

You’re also right about the Thalassa dotted SpEd being Comme des Garcons, but regular design w/o dots should appear IMO and was left out.

I’ll be interested to hear addt’l feedback on the scrambled modifiers... it just strikes me as strange that author would change position in book; they already had alphabetical space in last book, so it had to be conscious decision?

 

[de vent]

I for one am so grateful for the knowledge generously shared here so far!

My notes:

*Alliance Franco-Anglaise also released in scalloped jacquard (a la @Cookiefiend)

*Contrasts had a modern reissue (‘99-‘13 ballpark)

*Rose Compass- wrong image (should have waving flags, fleur des lis, water babies-type figures; considered putti possibly?)

*Tableau Des Marques listed as new scarf to CA4, but design was included in CA3 (pg183) as Peugeot. CA4 added artist R.Lewis as a collab, & dropped rating.

*Thalassa P.Peron 1973 re:1990 5D omitted. There’s a sp.Ed. w/dots which will go in other volume, but original design should still be included, right?

* l' Elegance et le Confort en Automobile" by Latham, 1996 missing from both CA3 & CA4 (I’ve seen 90 & plisse formats)

Ques: Can someone fluent in French enlighten me as to why only some title listings have changed from the standard format of definite article (L’, La, Le, Les) appearing after title?

Specific Examples:
Flore (La) to La Flore and
Trois Mousquetares (Les) to
Les Trois Mousquetares

They appeared as former in CA3, but switched to latter in CA4. It wasn’t a universal format change though...
Is there a grammatical reason for these specific titles or did author switch ‘em around for some other unknown reason?

Thank you, I’m finding all this updated info this very informative.

 

[turfnsurf]

@AnnaE - I remember you were wishing for jacquard info & I just came across this from @27leborse on the jacquard thread that there’s a compiled jacquard list by a fellow tpf’er:
“Unsure how complete it is, but Seton posted a list of jacquards in 2008 on her website digitalurbana.com.

List of Jacquard Carres”

Thought this might be great knowledge to print, add-to and then slip in the back of CA4

 

[AnnaE]

@AnnaE - I remember you were wishing for jacquard info & I just came across this from @27leborse on the jacquard thread that there’s a compiled jacquard list by a fellow tpf’er:
“Unsure how complete it is, but Seton posted a list of jacquards in 2008 on her website digitalurbana.com.

List of Jacquard Carres”

Thought this might be great knowledge to print, add-to and then slip in the back of CA4

Ah thank you! As far as I remember, it was fairly comprehensive.

I am making my way through the book now and will post more if I find anything...

 

[AnnaE]

Shoot- you’re right on l’Elegance et le Confort en Automobile - it’s listed under shortened name Confort en Automobile. Apologies, I thought I had looked in index for other possibilities, but it was late... clearly I missed it.

You’re also right about the Thalassa dotted SpEd being Comme des Garcons, but regular design w/o dots should appear IMO and was left out.

I’ll be interested to hear addt’l feedback on the scrambled modifiers... it just strikes me as strange that author would change position in book; they already had alphabetical space in last book, so it had to be conscious decision?

My only guess for the alphabetization problem remains feedback from non-French speakers (which most collectors worldwide are likely not). Every single French reference book I have ever seen omits those articles when organizing the information. Same as we would not use the ‘The’ and ‘A’ to alphabetize in English.

The issue of naming is getting to me. I think the book needs a reference table of common names and their ‘proper’ equivalents. The very first scarf in the book is 1789, which the vast majority of people refer to as ‘Liberté, égalité, fraternité.’ Let’s say you are buying this scarf on eBay and want to look it up, you may not find it unless you know the ‘proper’ name.

 

[turfnsurf]

My only guess for the alphabetization problem remains feedback from non-French speakers (which most collectors worldwide are likely not). Every single French reference book I have ever seen omits those articles when organizing the information. Same as we would not use the ‘The’ and ‘A’ to alphabetize in English.

The issue of naming is getting to me. I think the book needs a reference table of common names and their ‘proper’ equivalents. The very first scarf in the book is 1789, which the vast majority of people refer to as ‘Liberté, égalité, fraternité.’ Let’s say you are buying this scarf on eBay and want to look it up, you may not find it unless you know the ‘proper’ name.

I remembered something in CA3 about naming... pg15 says, “I wanted my descriptions to be as precise as possible, all the while respecting the names under which the scarves are designated by the brand even if the ‘regulars’ call them otherwise.” Author defers to her notes from H, but I agree that she should still mention popular alt.names.

Whilst looking for the above notation I also consulted CA4 & found the answer to my modifier/article question (pg23):
“The classification is made using the official name of the scarf in alphabetical order (without the article except for: Le, La, Les, d’, De, Des, The” when it’s not a proper name).”

So I conclude La Flore and Les Trois Mousquetares are the “proper names.”

 

[textilegirl]

I've been doing a bit of spreadsheet updating today and noted that CA IV references the design Manufacture de Boucleries (Gianpaolo Pagni) as the detail edition, 2018. I'm pretty sure that was the year the GMCS and gavroche were issued; the vintage 70 came out in AW 2015. I don't recall a 90 twill or other format but I'm not certain about that. I guess it makes sense to include the design so that at least there's a reference for it (even though the book is supposed to be limited to 90 silk twills) but why not use the first edition of the design? (Fontan's notation suggests the 2018 is the 1st edition). I suspect there quite a few designs never issued in 90 twill format and I wonder whether they are included and how they are referenced....

 

[Nomad]

I've been doing a bit of spreadsheet updating today and noted that CA IV references the design Manufacture de Boucleries (Gianpaolo Pagni) as the detail edition, 2018. I'm pretty sure that was the year the GMCS and gavroche were issued; the vintage 70 came out in AW 2015. I don't recall a 90 twill or other format but I'm not certain about that. I guess it makes sense to include the design so that at least there's a reference for it (even though the book is supposed to be limited to 90 silk twills) but why not use the first edition of the design? (Fontan's notation suggests the 2018 is the 1st edition). I suspect there quite a few designs never issued in 90 twill format and I wonder whether they are included and how they are referenced....

Interesting. My take was that the original issue, even if it was a 70 at original release, would be issued in this book and listed as a 70.
sorry if this doesn’t make sense. I’m not looking at the book right now

 

[AnnaE]

Interesting. My take was that the original issue, even if it was a 70 at original release, would be issued in this book and listed as a 70.
sorry if this doesn’t make sense. I’m not looking at the book right now

This is my understanding too, although some 70s are listed as 90s...

 

[Nomad]

I’m not looking at my book right now , but I always called one of the scarves Liberté or liberty or liberté Francais or something since I’ve always seen it called different things. And come to find out in her book that it’s called 1789 ( or some number). But then when I went to mark up the index ( as I do)....I think it wasn’t listed as the first listing of the index like in the book. Its the first picture. I had to handwrite it in on the index To my memory

 

[turfnsurf]

I've been doing a bit of spreadsheet updating today and noted that CA IV references the design Manufacture de Boucleries (Gianpaolo Pagni) as the detail edition, 2018. I'm pretty sure that was the year the GMCS and gavroche were issued; the vintage 70 came out in AW 2015. I don't recall a 90 twill or other format but I'm not certain about that. I guess it makes sense to include the design so that at least there's a reference for it (even though the book is supposed to be limited to 90 silk twills) but why not use the first edition of the design? (Fontan's notation suggests the 2018 is the 1st edition). I suspect there quite a few designs never issued in 90 twill format and I wonder whether they are included and how they are referenced....

MdB is listed as a 1st issue CSGM in CA3 and there’s a notation in CA4 Forward that those weren’t included [this time]. If it was released as a 70 (or 90), then I’m guessing it’s possibly a limited edition & may appear in forthcoming parts ll or lll.
Details have been treated as separate design from parent, so would explain the 1st issue 2018 date I think?

 

[turfnsurf]

I’m not looking at my book right now , but I always called one of the scarves Liberté or liberty or liberté Francais or something since I’ve always seen it called different things. And come to find out in her book that it’s called 1789 ( or some number). But then when I went to mark up the index ( as I do)....I think it wasn’t listed as the first listing of the index like in the book. Its the first picture. I had to handwrite it in on the index To my memory

You’re absolutely correct- great catch!
Author omitted 1789 as well as 1821 from Index

 

[Nomad]

I was looking at a list of jacquard scarves and found some I have never heard of and can’t find in the book.
Does anyone know the “Fauconnerie Royal Deduit”, “Hallali du loup” or “Insectes”?

 

[Nomad]

I was looking at a list of jacquard scarves and found some I have never heard of and can’t find in the book.
Does anyone know the “Fauconnerie Royal Deduit”, “Hallali du loup” or “Insectes”?

Nope. I found insects in the book just now!! My old sad eyes lol

 

[ARFON]

I found an “Impose Ta Chance” (Valerie Dawlat-Dumoulin)2004 -rocks arranged in spiral design- that has no title on scarf and ‘Rougeur Matinaux’ in one corner.

We have indicated the names that appear in the registers of the House of Hermès. "Impose ta chance" is the official name for the square signed René Char. The same is true for other squares in the Hermès collection. ARFON MDE