Okay sooo this description is just marketing (scam) then... ?I know. His company is up for sale now so…
Chanel’s Rise & STALL: Defects, Difficulties & Deflection (formerly the 19 tote saga thread)
- Thread starter TraceySH
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yep, I had a long discussion with a person more knowledgeable by far re fashion production, made in Italy. Total scam. And I still own some old Tom Ford Gucci and YSL RTW that I purchased back in the day. I was a fan. it’s kind of like you have to be careful about the purchase of olive oil, bc labels can legally hide key information.
as far as I know, of the relatively well known premier brand fashion names, brunello is the one that is really made in his Italian factory. where incidentally his workers (including tailors trained by his school in Solemeo) all have a subsidized 3 euro 1.5 hour daily lunch of three courses plus wine. (I partook of this).
@tulipfield, I think you asked whether you would be better off going vintage or chanel RTW; perhaps repost in the chanel RTW thread in chanel clubhouse subforum to get replies. I personally still buy current RTW, but I have changed by diet exercise and lifestyle, in part, to be able to wear my own vintage decades old RTW. A two piece pantsuit I bought in 2001 spring is still classic and wearable today.
@bagsaremyjam, I learned from the points you made, and I actually agreed with your assessment of chanel. i think we may be in the minority on TPF. IMO, if one is unhappy with Chanel’s opaque practices, one can simply not purchase. For my part, I’m less bothered by chanel’s lack of transparency than by the chanel customers who demand complete symmetry from a soft sided bag. ( I am not joking that a Tory Burch tote may better satisfy some of the disgruntled chanel customers).
I do learn a great deal from threads of many TPFers including @TraceySH, and I very carefully and suspiciously handled a 19 tote last week. I count myself exceedingly fortunate that my recent purchases compare satisfactorily to my past purchases, mainly bc I can examine in person. I’m actually much more bothered by the fact that Hermes, though it operates and owns the best tannery, makes it so difficult, next to impossible, for independent leather artisans to buy the best hides wholesale.
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Personally I'm less concerned with the country of manufacture and care more about quality and craftsmanship, so as long as a bag/item is well made using quality materials I'll be a happy customer.
Generally speaking, clients in Asian countries fetishize (go nuts over) the Made-In-Italy and Made-In-France designation, associating this label with quality and craftsmanship, but as we've seen here it can clearly be a marketing ploy.
I dropped by my local boutique today, armed with the knowledge of this thread and took a closer look of the 19 + 22 bags. It just feels like plastic and not leather. BUT the metallic beige lambskin trench coat did feel and smell like leather.
My Hermès briefcases also smell heavenly after a decade of use. I own three in Epsom, Togo and Vache liégée respectively.
Thank you for the tip! One thing I like about the vintage items is they tend to be made of all natural fibers rather than blended with polyamide, so I might go vintage just with that in mind.
On another note, a lot of folks here have mentioned that their items “smell like leather”… not saying Chanel does this, but there are sprays you can use to impart a leather smell to items. So I wouldn’t necessarily trust that something’s leather just based on smell. =\
I love vintage mid century deadstock RTW. Yes re all natural fibers. But, they are heavy as F— lol. A Norman Norell coat feels like 25 pounds. Your comment about leather smell Makes me think chanel should put a scratch and sniff card in its bags.
apologies for OT
I couldn’t agree with you more! Seriously. We are definitely in the minority here. A TPF member dm’d me and pointed out that there will always be flaws with any major designer fashion brand where human hands are involved. She’s right, and it’d be silly to expect utter perfection.
I’ve seen plenty of Hermes bags with imperfect, slightly crooked,
or not perfectly filled stamping and certainly not “perfect” stitching. Same with Chanel. I’m extremely particular but also understand the way these bags are made, so I will never expect perfectly straight symmetrical lines in every single crevice of a bag. Overall symmetry, yes, but I’m talking about corners, etc.
I hear you about disgruntled Chanel customers. I’ve seen threads where people are complaining about how cheap the soft bags look because they’re not structured. Chanel bags aren’t all meant to be structured to look like a classic flap. Soft leather, wrinkling leather, unpuffy quilts, etc, doesn’t equate to inexpensive materials or quality. It’s a completely different look and vibe and a choice they make to differentiate seasonal bags from the classics. Sometimes it seems many aren’t familiar with how these bags are made or aren’t educated with the type of leather they’re buying, and can have unrealistic expectations.
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+1000; there are tons of articles about this, like this one https://www.marketplace.org/2014/09/24/made-italy-may-not-mean-what-you-think-it-does/
The answer to why buy a 19 tote, bonded leather, machine made with some hand assembly ? because chanel markets it as desirable. TPF is a forum that is extremely brand focused. Big Brands mean fantasy, marketing, runway shows. Well, it’s wrapped in fancy natural cardboard box with ribbons and camellias.
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I couldn’t agree with you more! We are definitely in the minority here. Another TPF member dm’d me and pointed out that there will always be flaws with any major designer fashion brand, because human hands are involved in making the items. She has a valid point, and it’d be silly to not expect mistakes or to expect utter perfection.
I’ve seen plenty of Hermes bags with imperfect, slightly crooked or imperfect stamping or not fully and certainly not “perfect” stitching. Same with Chanel. I’m extremely particular but also understand the way these bags are made, so I will never expect perfectly straight symmetrical lines in every single crevice of a bag. Overall symmetry, yes, but I’m talking about corners, etc.
I hear you about disgruntled Chanel customers. I’ve seen threads where people are complaining about how cheap the soft bags look because they’re not structured. Many don’t realize Chanel bags aren’t all meant to be structured to look like a classic flap. Soft leather, wrinkling leather, un-puffy quilts, etc, doesn’t equate to inexpensive materials or quality. It’s a completely different look and vibe and a choice they make to differentiate seasonal bags from the classics.
these days, there are more convoluted and shady things happening beyond manufacturing the majority in China and bring to Italy for finishing.
There are cases where the item is definitely 100% assembled in Italy, but in places like Prato. The factories there often comprise undocumented Chinese immigrants, where the stuff is often done off the books, and the work conditions and pay is awful — sweatshops basically.
+1000
China finds new way to invade - The Riverdale Press
In the Tuscan city of Prato, Italy, there are nearly 5,000 workshops run by Chinese entrepreneurs turning out cheap clothing for the fast-fashion companies of Italy and Europe.
www.riverdalepress.com
The leathers from Fleuron have been beautiful (same tannery as Hermes...) they are pretty new. OT but a nice little plug there for the little guy.
What an eye-opening thread, thank you v much to all with both sides of the discussion for my education! If anything, I am pretty pleased that my only Chanel is a small caramel lambskin C19. I have been babying her like anything but can now rest easy knowing that she is next to indestructible!
Many good points made here. And I did know the answer to my question about why would you want to buy a $5k bag thats not leather....I know its all due to marketing. The power of the CC attributes to 90% of the value of that item in people's eyes. I never did think Chanel was for the client that wanted everything perfect. Luxury however should be at least able to give you better quality, service, something....
When Im talking about items being finished in Chinese factories in Italy, yes, Im talking about Prato. Chanel is not alone, many of the designers are manufacturing there. And the conditions are reportedly not good.
I think the point of this thread from the beginning was there are recent bags that appear to not be leather, that are called calfskin/lambskin on the website and they have issues. OP was trying to bring awareness and clarity. Certainly people are still buying them, I guess we will see what happens.
When Im talking about items being finished in Chinese factories in Italy, yes, Im talking about Prato. Chanel is not alone, many of the designers are manufacturing there. And the conditions are reportedly not good.
I think the point of this thread from the beginning was there are recent bags that appear to not be leather, that are called calfskin/lambskin on the website and they have issues. OP was trying to bring awareness and clarity. Certainly people are still buying them, I guess we will see what happens.
Just want to share this from my SA:
Chanel doesn’t even disclose all the specifics to us lol…the 19 tote is a known issue, and I wouldn’t really recommend that tote to anyone lol…
Also:
In regards to lambskin, Chanel treats it as little as possible to preserve the natural suppleness and soft texture. That being said, I have noticed that sometimes the lambskin seems to feel more durable some seasons than it does in others. I don’t know why that woman is even putting acetone and rubbing clorox wipes on her bag, which will most likely cause damage later on for her bag lol.
I asked her if she knew what the coating is on the classic 19 bag as there’s debate on this thread and referenced the tests being done on it. Also brought up the 19 tote.
Chanel doesn’t even disclose all the specifics to us lol…the 19 tote is a known issue, and I wouldn’t really recommend that tote to anyone lol…
Also:
In regards to lambskin, Chanel treats it as little as possible to preserve the natural suppleness and soft texture. That being said, I have noticed that sometimes the lambskin seems to feel more durable some seasons than it does in others. I don’t know why that woman is even putting acetone and rubbing clorox wipes on her bag, which will most likely cause damage later on for her bag lol.
I asked her if she knew what the coating is on the classic 19 bag as there’s debate on this thread and referenced the tests being done on it. Also brought up the 19 tote.
Again, I rarely have time to come to TPF anymore but I caught up and felt that I needed to chime in on this one.
There is very little human interaction with the leather goods anymore. Everything is machine made other than most of the Metiers that is still hand assembled in France. Notice that I said most.
Also, Chanel closed their Prato operation in the 2010s when the Italian labour union raided the factories for unsafe work environment. They still use a small group there for some hardware assembly. To be clear, this is not just Chanel. This is most of the self proclaimed “luxury” brands.
Chanel now has a large, unmarked factory in Pulia and the locals have now removed from office the officials who approved this move as they were sold on it being brought to Pulia to employ Italians. That didn’t happen. Don’t bother Googling this because you won’t find it or maybe someone who is more savvy than I can. I know this because my family’s business is there. So I do know this first hand.
Lastly, and this is not directed at any one person, please educate yourselves on the distinct difference between “Made In…” and “100% Made In…”. Insert whatever country you want.
There is a huge difference.