WARNING, Paypal just made me lose $20 THOUSAND dollars from a scamming buyer

[BittyMonkey]

I feel like my chance at a case is gone because paypal had the main piece of "evidence" destroyed!! Maybe them ordering it's destruction will be a blessing in disguise from a legal standpoint. Perhaps paypal ordering someone to destroy property that was not theirs AND the buyer got a refund, will somehow help me?

I have so many thoughts swirling in my head I feel delirious.

Personally, I think PayPal ordering property for destruction that was in the midst of dispute by someone that is not a disinterested party will likely be the key thing in a lawsuit.

I second the suggestions of going after PP directly and contacting the CA AG.

 

[karen02840]

How about filing a Police report where you live? What it comes down to is that you have had merchandise stolen, right?

 

[CobaltBlu]

You said that you had the bag authenticated at a firm that has a division that specializes in copyright protection. Is it possible that they can help you as part of the service. After all, this also flies in the face of the authentication they provided as well. Maybe they can help you go after paypal???

Have you googled the buyer and her address to see if there were any shady dealings going on?

Hopefully tomorrow will yeild some more answers. Did paypal indicate that anything would have been different if this had been an ebay transaction?

I just want to reiterate how thankful I am for everyone's support.

If I sound ungrateful or snappy at any time it is only because I am extremely stressed out from this. I did not sleep last night even though I was exhausted from a 10K run/race that was very challenging. I came home from my race to the emails sent by paypal. The physical and mental exhaustion as well as feeling helpless because of Paypal's decision is just the WORST feeling. It is indescribable how I feel. It is like justice and sense of right and wrong does not exist.

I feel like my chance at a case is gone because paypal had the main piece of "evidence" destroyed!! Maybe them ordering it's destruction will be a blessing in disguise from a legal standpoint. Perhaps paypal ordering someone to destroy property that was not theirs AND the buyer got a refund, will somehow help me?

I have so many thoughts swirling in my head I feel delirious.

Personally, I think PayPal ordering property for destruction that was in the midst of dispute by someone that is not a disinterested party will likely be the key thing in a lawsuit.

I second the suggestions of going after PP directly and contacting the CA AG.

 

[AmbassadorBri]

Ok, I don't know if this applies... I recently (as in NOV '10) bought a bag that turned out to be a BLANTANT fake and PP made me return the bag to the seller, and the seller NEVER went to the PO to pick it up! PP never told ME to destroy the bag, although I had proof from Carol that it was a fake (sent to PP) as well as the confirmation by the ladies here on TPF.

PayPal never, ever told ME to destroy the bag. I cannot fathom they told this lady to do so??!!! - esp. b/c it was $11,000!!!

PS... PP is sowing the seeds of its own destruction.

 

[CobaltBlu]

was the paypal transaction specifically for merchandise? Or did you choose gift?

 

[*Heather*]

The more i think about this, the more it bothers me....besides the fact that this is so bloody unfair.

It completely baffles me that someone at Paypal would instruct that the EVIDENCE be destroyed. Unless they, (Paypal) has something to hide?
Perhaps it became apparent that they had mishandled this, and needed to destroy the proof of their error, to hide the mistake?


I just doesn't add up.........

I agree....I still think it could be an inside job. Years ago, I bought a dress, and it was SNAD. Paypal asked me to send it to them...?...and it wasn't designer or anything special. I still wonder what they did with it.

 

[nazaluke]

Sadly, I think the day has come when it is no longer safe to sell on online sites. OP did her due diligence and still the scammer was able to work the system. I can't imagine how you feel, but you have my deepest sympathies for all the stress and aggravation you are undergoing now.

 

[lizmil]

If one could sue for stupidity, the courts would have more people in them than they already do

 

[cbarrus]

Kristie, please do not apologize for anything. You did nothing wrong here. If people need to apologize for trusting other people, then we are in a lot more trouble than we think. I was scammed, too, but for $1500 - not $11000. But, regardless of the amount, there is no excuse whatsoever for a thief.

There is a misconception, in my opinion, about what seller protection is with ebay/PayPal. They protect sellers from unauthorized transactions and items not received but not from SNADs (don't get me wrong here - I am not fond of PayPal in the least). I agree that going after them for having the bag destroyed (if that is true) and not taking your side of the story into consideration is the best way to approach the situation. Paypal needs to be exposed for these actions where they set them self up as judge and jury. It would be much better for them to suggest that legal action is taken outside of PayPal to solve some of these disputes - especially when this much money is involved.

You mentioned that you are in law enforcement. My husband was, too. You are correct, unfortunately, that this is considered a civil matter. That baffles me, however, because it is clearly theft. You did say that PayPal suggested that you take it up with their "legal department," right? That sounds like an invitation to me. That may be their arrogance talking, but it may also be a different story if they are actually sued. If you search google, there are stories of people who have successfully sued them (of course, you never know what stories are true on the internet).

I, too, hope this works out in your favor somehow. I don't think I would be functioning at all if I were dealing with this, but, sometimes we are stronger than we think. I tend to be at my strongest when I am angry

 

[mmmsc]

I don't think that anyone is saying that you should have known better. Some posters were simply pointing out various ways to protect yourself. As I said before, no one deserves to get burned. Regardless of how it all went down, you still found yourself in an extremely unfortunate situation. I sincerely hope that you can find a positive outcome. Please keep us updated. *Crossing fingers* for you.

It seems that no matter WHAT you do, the odds are nowadays that you WILL eventually get scammed on ebay and/or PP.
Pulling for you Kristie. I hope this will have a solution that is favorable to you. Just unbelievable this happened.

 

[CobaltBlu]

This looks like trouble...
In the User Agreement it states that if the item is counterfeit, it will be destroyed. It is vague enough to not state how, however.

10.1 Your Liability. You are responsible for all Reversals, Chargebacks, Claims, fees, fines, penalties and other liability incurred by PayPal, a User, or a third party caused by or arising out of your breach of this Agreement, and/or your use of the PayPal Services. You agree to reimburse PayPal, a User, or a third party for any and all such liability.

Liability for PayPal Claims. If you are a Seller and PayPal makes a final decision that you lose a Claim filed directly with PayPal, you will be required to reimburse PayPal for your liability. Your liability will include the full purchase price of the item and original shipping cost (and in some cases, you may not receive the item back). You will not receive a refund on your PayPal fees. PayPal Seller protection may cover your liability, see section 11 below.

If you sell to a buyer and the buyer files a Significantly Not as Described (SNAD) Claim, you will generally be required to accept the item back and refund the buyer the full purchase price plus original shipping costs. You will not receive a refund on your PayPal fees. If you lose a SNAD Claim because the item you sold is counterfeit, you will be required to provide a full refund to the buyer and you will not receive the item back (it will be destroyed).

 

[GirlieShoppe]

I just want to reiterate how thankful I am for everyone's support.

If I sound ungrateful or snappy at any time it is only because I am extremely stressed out from this. I did not sleep last night even though I was exhausted from a 10K run/race that was very challenging. I came home from my race happy but drained only to find the emails sent by paypal. The physical and mental exhaustion as well as feeling helpless because of Paypal's decision is just the WORST feeling. It is indescribable how I feel. It is like justice and sense of right and wrong does not exist.

I feel like my chance at a case is gone because paypal had the main piece of "evidence" destroyed!! Maybe them ordering it's destruction will be a blessing in disguise from a legal standpoint. Perhaps paypal ordering someone to destroy property that was not theirs AND the buyer got a refund, will somehow help me?

I have so many thoughts swirling in my head I feel delirious.

I can't imagine how stressed out you must be. Hang in there!

 

[CobaltBlu]

It sounds like this is a new addition to the User Agreement, the destruction of the item. November 2010, by some accounts. What a mess.

Ok, I don't know if this applies... I recently (as in NOV '10) bought a bag that turned out to be a BLANTANT fake and PP made me return the bag to the seller, and the seller NEVER went to the PO to pick it up! PP never told ME to destroy the bag, although I had proof from Carol that it was a fake (sent to PP) as well as the confirmation by the ladies here on TPF.

PayPal never, ever told ME to destroy the bag. I cannot fathom they told this lady to do so??!!! - esp. b/c it was $11,000!!!

PS... PP is sowing the seeds of its own destruction.

 

[Love Of My Life]

I truly appreciate everyone's input but I will NOT go down the road of "She should have known better, she should have seen the red flags."

FYI I have done a lot of high dollar transactions with 0 FB buyers after a lot of well established contact. This buyer was no different. We had great emails, etc. A repor was built and established and I sold her the bag believing I was protected by PP seller protection.

Did I get burned??? Yes I did. Could this have also happened with a high FB buyer? Yes.

I will simply not respond to the, "Why would you trust this buyer, you shouldn't have" questions.....

I actually went above and beyond what most sellers do with their bags. Could I have done more? Hindsight 20/20 and Monday morning quarterbacking, why yes I guess I could have with some kind of third party verification and letter of authenticity with THAT bag when I shipped it.

It is easy to pick apart the mistakes people have made when you are not in their shoes.

The seller had no reason not to go ahead with this buyer. There were
no red flags... some sellers are more cautious with buyers with 0
feedback.. this seller sounds like she had enough experience to
detect something that might not have been right... if you are going
to cheat or scam it doesn't really make a difference what the amount
of money is... this just stings alot more because it is a big amount..
but sellers hurt when they sell something for $100 and they get
scammed... if this seller thought for one second that she should have
video taped the whole process, got a third party involved, had a
affadavit, think she would have done all of that & then some... this
is an absolutely horrific financial & emotional experience to go through..
compounded by the fact that this buyer is out of the country..

 

[AmbassadorBri]

OMG... Grrrrrr... Sadly, the bag that I rec'd really SHOULD be destroyed. It wasn't even LEATHER!

I hate this for the OP. If you sell on Ebay do you HAVE to accept PayPal? I seriously want to be sick every time I read this thread.... I cannot imagine how the seller must feel.

It sounds like this is a new addition to the User Agreement, the destruction of the item. November 2010, by some accounts. What a mess.