The Atlantic: Fashion’s Racism and Classism Are Finally Out of Style
- Thread starter tulipfield
- Start date
As I believe you know, I have certainly tried.
To be honest, I'm not even certain it's worth pursuing a separate discussion thread on race issues. A fruitful conversation requires both sides to want to understand each other, but I have repeatedly seen both sides get defensive. I can't imagine how any of the mods could referee the discussions when they tend to escalate so quickly! JMO.
@Swanky I do wonder, however, why conversations that naturally occur on existing threads- such as the royalty threads where racism is organically interwoven- get deleted. I feel like deleting the offensive posts sweeps things under the rug, without any consequences to those who are being brazenly racist.
I understand mods have a thankless and exhausting job, but this approach is frustrating for those who feel discriminated against. They are indirectly silenced by the discussion being wiped away, though I'm certain the intent is merely to keep things on-topic.
The defensive attitude, in my observation, comes from general brush used by both sides due to the lack of transparency of our background. Not agreeing with a side is automatic sentence (eg dislike Meghan = racist, like Meghan = lacking of common sense) when in reality, sensitive issues such as this is more nuanced and perceptions are coloured by location, culture etc (racism in US is a different animal than racism in UK for example).
I as a minority experience racism in where I live in a subtle way and no amount of 'education' can persuade the other side to accept that they are racist. They also argue that who made me the moral police? I agree and backed off. They continue to be racist and I continue to be offended. So we avoid each other but that’s life.
In the forum context, why should one group educate the other when our backgrounds are so diverse and anonymous? It will just results in mods playing referee on a moving goal posts.
I guess if we find a thread or a member or a forum too much, we can always employ the useful ignore button. Any other ways are futile to govern such a large group of international, anonymous members.
My 2 cents.
I think discussing racism is definitely important but also very sensitive.
I think it’s much easier to say you are not racist vs being anti-racist. I recently went to a very small (about 20 people), intimate wedding reception. My DH and I were seated at the same table as another couple and the husband made an inappropriate comment about Asians. I am Asian. It was not directed at me and he had obviously been over served. I was angered and immediately wanted to respond but then I checked myself. I decided that it was definitely not worth casting a pall over this event. I did not expect anyone else at the table to respond as I don’t think that they were paying attention at this point. I felt badly and I still feel that I should have said something to him. I also believe though that this was not the right time or setting to educate this man.
I think it’s much easier to say you are not racist vs being anti-racist. I recently went to a very small (about 20 people), intimate wedding reception. My DH and I were seated at the same table as another couple and the husband made an inappropriate comment about Asians. I am Asian. It was not directed at me and he had obviously been over served. I was angered and immediately wanted to respond but then I checked myself. I decided that it was definitely not worth casting a pall over this event. I did not expect anyone else at the table to respond as I don’t think that they were paying attention at this point. I felt badly and I still feel that I should have said something to him. I also believe though that this was not the right time or setting to educate this man.
Gawd Mimmy, I just wanted to say, firstly, I am so incredibly sorry that dirtbag chose to make such comments and not only impacted your night but left you with residual agitation. Secondly, there is absolutely no obligation on you to say something to someone like that and i hate that you still think about that.
The idea that racialized people should have the added burden of educating the uneducated, rude and boorish is bananas. I hope you spend no more time thinking about him.
Thank you for your response @A1aGypsy. It actually helped just to post what I experienced here.
Although this was a very small group I do not anticipate ever being in a situation where I will need to see this couple again.
I had an interaction as a child I’d never forget. Was in Chinatown, on my way to friend’s when I passed by a store where there was an African American trying to get answer from the store keeper whose English was conversational at best.
I stepped in and translated and the dude said to me, never change.
I have always said even as a child, I do not see people by their color and for the longest time, that was my stance. Even when a friend, Asian, gave me a hard time for befriending African Americans and was taken back when I told this friend their comment was out of line (this was hs so my language was probably not as nice) for trash talking about a classmate and her bf that was African American.
I’ve added since, while I don’t see people by their color, I am making myself aware of their background/culture. Because I don’t want to sound dismissive.
It’s always a fine line of not wanting to be dismissive of the past because even though it’s the past, it shapes the environment we’re in today yet… those who continue to think in the past, won’t let go and you can feel the undertone in conversations (even if you can’t pinpoint why, just something is off).
It’s also being able to try and remove emotions and judgement from it. You have your idea of what’s norm. You have your idea of what’s common sense.
And if you go forth in that righteous path with the idea that others should change to bend to your idea of what is right/wrong, you’ll be contributing to the tension without the intent to.
Talking at someone, vs trying to listen and understand where they’re coming from, even if it’s so obviously wrong (to you), would get nowhere.
** note, I make a point to talk about the background for context eg background meaning the race. Similar to when I say someone is in their x age, as I have been accused of making ageist remarks when simply, details for me matter. It’s an easy example of how someone can have the right intention yet they were quick to jump to conclusion vs asking.
I stepped in and translated and the dude said to me, never change.
I have always said even as a child, I do not see people by their color and for the longest time, that was my stance. Even when a friend, Asian, gave me a hard time for befriending African Americans and was taken back when I told this friend their comment was out of line (this was hs so my language was probably not as nice) for trash talking about a classmate and her bf that was African American.
I’ve added since, while I don’t see people by their color, I am making myself aware of their background/culture. Because I don’t want to sound dismissive.
It’s always a fine line of not wanting to be dismissive of the past because even though it’s the past, it shapes the environment we’re in today yet… those who continue to think in the past, won’t let go and you can feel the undertone in conversations (even if you can’t pinpoint why, just something is off).
It’s also being able to try and remove emotions and judgement from it. You have your idea of what’s norm. You have your idea of what’s common sense.
And if you go forth in that righteous path with the idea that others should change to bend to your idea of what is right/wrong, you’ll be contributing to the tension without the intent to.
Talking at someone, vs trying to listen and understand where they’re coming from, even if it’s so obviously wrong (to you), would get nowhere.
** note, I make a point to talk about the background for context eg background meaning the race. Similar to when I say someone is in their x age, as I have been accused of making ageist remarks when simply, details for me matter. It’s an easy example of how someone can have the right intention yet they were quick to jump to conclusion vs asking.