Hermès Faces Class Action Suit Over Birkin Sales Practices

I understand the issue to be a “tying” allegation and that pre-spend is tied in 🥁 lol

I saw a few comments sorta demonizing pre-spend. imo, pre-spend is a practice created/acquired within the H community, including sa/sm AND customers. maybe not always simultaneously; however, it is a two way street.

hypothetically, a prospective customer with disposable $$$ and knowledge that sa will not get commission for the QB, decides to spend $$$ in ‘commission’ departments with the expectation of being favored by the sa and thus landing the QB quickly.
 
I understand the issue to be a “tying” allegation and that pre-spend is tied in 🥁 lol

I saw a few comments sorta demonizing pre-spend. imo, pre-spend is a practice created/acquired within the H community, including sa/sm AND customers. maybe not always simultaneously; however, it is a two way street.

hypothetically, a prospective customer with disposable $$$ and knowledge that sa will not get commission for the QB, decides to spend $$$ in ‘commission’ departments with the expectation of being favored by the sa and thus landing the QB quickly.
I prefer to spend money on things along with the QB offer together rather than pre-spend (which you dont know for how long and how much) with uncertainty of getting a QB. This is what makes a lot of customers upset and unhappy in the end because of the uncertainty and somewhat feel being used 😬
 
Hermés has strung along many for decades now to increase sales.

They know that people only want Birkins from them, so they do this to get us to buy other things because Birkins are so labor intensive.

I wonder what a boutique would be like with ONLY Birkins? Would the mass market get sick of them?

Many stores do this.... VCA does it, too.

I wonder if there will be more lawsuits.
 
I've been wondering what better model Hermes could use to revamp its bag allocation methods without leaving people feeling manipulated, but still keep exclusivity. Plus one that would get them out of any tying issues they're dealing with now.

What if they switched to a straight-up loyalty/rewards system like the hospitality industry? At some point, members who get enough points after they sign up get a "free" bag. I figured Hermes might not want to do this because it knows shoppers in SFO/NYC are willing to spend more on its other goods and have lower price sensitivity than its shoppers in Denver. Maybe they could tier the point system based on proven residence, as I think that kind of price discrimination is permissible (based on what we see with universities/public tuition and Disneyland park discounts for locals). To avoid ghost shoppers going in and dropping heaps in other local stores with reduced points, have something like a one-year wait period from the time they sign up for the loyalty program to the time of receiving a bag. The exclusivity still exists, but it's also a fair and transparent system.

If Hermes could come up with any model that gives their bag "free" (knowing they're recouping the costs through the sale of other things) I think half their battle is won. After all, one of the biggest distinctions of a "product" is that's bought/sold rather than given.
 
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I understand the issue to be a “tying” allegation and that pre-spend is tied in 🥁 lol

I saw a few comments sorta demonizing pre-spend. imo, pre-spend is a practice created/acquired within the H community, including sa/sm AND customers. maybe not always simultaneously; however, it is a two way street.

I agree with you here that prespend took on a life of its own. Perhaps in a way that the company never foresaw initially--it was probably Brunello who sparked what Hermes might have assumed was under wraps when he published Taking Home the Birkin.

But if Hermes isn't willing to be straightforward about its practices and richly benefit from the confusion it reaps, it's no wonder that customers try to string anecdotes to put rules together when what Hermes says (or doesn't say at all, but implies through omission) deviates from what it actually does.

The Paris lottery system appointment is a good example of the difference between cut and lip. If one doesn't receive an appointment the emailed message is, "In view of the high number of appointments, we are extremely sorry that we were not able to fulfill your request at this time." When people ask FSH associates at the store for an appointment, they answer, "I'm sorry madame, each store is allotted 20 appointments and 6,000 people apply every day" or a variation thereof. The company's words give the impression to the consumer that the lottery is totally random. That everyone who applies has the same chance of selection as everyone else.

But the company's actions tell a different story. If the honest odds of getting an appointment is .003% on any given day, why do people who spend more in the store seem to have a higher probability of getting this appointment? Why are there anecdotes abound of someone shopping with an SA, asking about appointment availability, and being told "try tomorrow, madame, I'm sure your luck will change" only to find... voila! appointment. If lottery appointments are randomly distributed as stated by the company, why does a cancellation magically appear for the customer with a high spend asking about a non-quota bag? Why do those with low spend seem to receive a bag less often in the event that they do get an appointment compared to those with a higher spend before the appointment? We're to believe this is coincidence? Of course it's not. And Hermes knows we know it's not.

I know there's not a chance that this lawsuit would result in the allowance of this discovery, but I would wager my entire H handbag collection that if one could see the computer algorithm for the Hermes lottery system, they would see very clear rules about who gets an appointment and who doesn't. But that's never spelled out to us and never will be. Even if probability =/= guarantee, the company not being straightforward about that is misleading. The consumer should be allowed to make an informed choice. If they're not, then as @saligator says, there IS the high likelihood of stringing people along.

So, now we know that there's a degree of confusion. Rules aren't clear, and the company's actions are not matching words. Make this make sense: the lottery is for people with no prespend to have a better chance of getting a bag through an appointment... but one has to spend to get a better chance of an appointment to get bag. And who benefits from this confusion? The company. Because they let the consumer put together its rules (formal or informal) that if it had written down, would be not just what I think is unethical, but as we're seeing in this case, possibly illegal.
 
Not a lawyer nor trained in that area.

The Hermes alleged sales tactics (as outlined in the filing) actually might be, allegedly, helping other houses. There are plenty of social media posts about folks walking away to buy a bag from another house because they are unhappy with not being able to "secure" a birkin, allegedly. In these cases, is Hermes hurting or "helping" competition? Antitrust is about business practices that are designed to monopolizing marketshare and preventing competition to thrive/operate in the same space. Not sure if it applies here.
 
Do we have a timetable for this lawsuit?
After filing the Complaint, Plaintiffs have 60 days to serve Hermes. I don't know if proof of service has been filed with the court, so I don't know if that's been done. Hermes has 30 days to file either an answer ("none of this is true") or demurrer ("there aren't enough facts regardless to claim this is an anti-trust violation" or, "this is the incorrect jurisdiction"). From here the timeline is dependent on who's filing what, which depends on the cards laid out by both parties. It could be years before this reaches trial, assuming it doesn't get dismissed well before then.

And @skyvue I think you're right to point out that the biggest hurdle will be about proving harm to consumers and competition. But I do think there's a (more convincingly hypothetical than legal) argument to be made that consumers are harmed because of alleged tying. If the price of Birkins have only increased because of this practice, then is the across-the-board price increases of handbags in the luxury space something that would have happened, had Hermes not allegedly tied its products? Because that does affect the consumer. We know Chanel did this. Yet while Chanel may have benefitted in their handbag line, their other products may be negatively affected. Same with any other brand in the luxury space. For ex, a consumer may forgo buying a Loro Piana/Chanel/Brunello sweater (thus hurting their sales) because a consumer chose instead to buy from Hermes. Not because she thinks it's a better sweater than what she finds at her favorites, but because it comes with the benefit of bringing her closer to a bag offer.

Plus there's the issue of the effect on smaller businesses. Doesn't have to be fashion. Let's take homeware. Imagine you have just started a luxury furniture shop. The ONLY clients who can afford them are the same small pool of customers who can afford to buy a $30k couch from Hermes, because you make $30k couches, too. Your margins are very slim because you've just started, you've got high overheads and you use expensive, regulatory-heavy inputs like some not-yet-banned-but-close rosewood. You even set up your store in the same affluent neighborhood as Hermes! Your sofa develops a cult following in the luxury community. Hermes sees this, and they want your market share. Or maybe they don't know of your existence or care. Maybe it's just really unfortunate timing, but Hermes has decided to make inroads into the furniture market and they want to compete with Roche Bobois. They want clients buying their 30k sofa. So you know what they do? Offer special orders/limited edition/exclusive wishlist bags to clients who buy a sofa [just as I think IRL they offered SOs for their watch push]. H knows it doesn't have to sell any sofas to stay in business... but you NEED to sell at least 3 a month. You being a small business can no longer compete--those same clients who liked your sofa just as much, or maybe even a little bit more, now have bought H's couch because they really want that bag, and liked the H couch well enough. And the competition wasn't based on Hermes designing or building a better sofa than you, it wasn't based on fair pricing, or anything resembling fair competition in a transparent market. It's because they made a product consumers really want (a bag), contingent on the sale of another. Would you want to be that small business?

As Hermes said in the watch article, "Of course, the brand’s greatest point of difference is its reputation and its enviable position of already having a high-net-worth clientele that flock to the maison in search of the very best. “We have an extreme asset; we know our customer. We can talk directly to our customers.” Yeah, it sure does have another "extreme asset" for those "in search of the very best": its Bs and Ks.
 
After filing the Complaint, Plaintiffs have 60 days to serve Hermes. I don't know if proof of service has been filed with the court, so I don't know if that's been done. Hermes has 30 days to file either an answer ("none of this is true") or demurrer ("there aren't enough facts regardless to claim this is an anti-trust violation" or, "this is the incorrect jurisdiction"). From here the timeline is dependent on who's filing what, which depends on the cards laid out by both parties. It could be years before this reaches trial, assuming it doesn't get dismissed well before then.

And @skyvue I think you're right to point out that the biggest hurdle will be about proving harm to consumers and competition. But I do think there's a (more convincingly hypothetical than legal) argument to be made that consumers are harmed because of alleged tying. If the price of Birkins have only increased because of this practice, then is the across-the-board price increases of handbags in the luxury space something that would have happened, had Hermes not allegedly tied its products? Because that does affect the consumer. We know Chanel did this. Yet while Chanel may have benefitted in their handbag line, their other products may be negatively affected. Same with any other brand in the luxury space. For ex, a consumer may forgo buying a Loro Piana/Chanel/Brunello sweater (thus hurting their sales) because a consumer chose instead to buy from Hermes. Not because she thinks it's a better sweater than what she finds at her favorites, but because it comes with the benefit of bringing her closer to a bag offer.

Plus there's the issue of the effect on smaller businesses. Doesn't have to be fashion. Let's take homeware. Imagine you have just started a luxury furniture shop. The ONLY clients who can afford them are the same small pool of customers who can afford to buy a $30k couch from Hermes, because you make $30k couches, too. Your margins are very slim because you've just started, you've got high overheads and you use expensive, regulatory-heavy inputs like some not-yet-banned-but-close rosewood. You even set up your store in the same affluent neighborhood as Hermes! Your sofa develops a cult following in the luxury community. Hermes sees this, and they want your market share. Or maybe they don't know of your existence or care. Maybe it's just really unfortunate timing, but Hermes has decided to make inroads into the furniture market and they want to compete with Roche Bobois. They want clients buying their 30k sofa. So you know what they do? Offer special orders/limited edition/exclusive wishlist bags to clients who buy a sofa [just as I think IRL they offered SOs for their watch push]. H knows it doesn't have to sell any sofas to stay in business... but you NEED to sell at least 3 a month. You being a small business can no longer compete--those same clients who liked your sofa just as much, or maybe even a little bit more, now have bought H's couch because they really want that bag, and liked the H couch well enough. And the competition wasn't based on Hermes designing or building a better sofa than you, it wasn't based on fair pricing, or anything resembling fair competition in a transparent market. It's because they made a product consumers really want (a bag), contingent on the sale of another. Would you want to be that small business?

As Hermes said in the watch article, "Of course, the brand’s greatest point of difference is its reputation and its enviable position of already having a high-net-worth clientele that flock to the maison in search of the very best. “We have an extreme asset; we know our customer. We can talk directly to our customers.” Yeah, it sure does have another "extreme asset" for those "in search of the very best": its Bs and Ks.
Thank you for a great discussion.
 
Do we have a timetable for this lawsuit?
FOREVER! I forsee so many, many legal and procedural issues with this Complaint that there is no way this case will get to a jury, in my opinion, within 2.5 years, to be generous. Just serving the Complaint on Hermes France requires compliance with an International Treaty. Plaintiffs picked a court that has minimal interest and contacts to all of the current parties so they are probably desperately seeking unhappy Hermes clients in the San Francisco, Bay Area hoping to stay in that court and avoid sanctions. The issue of where to litigate this case could take 6 months alone depending on the Court’s calendar. Think about what the court has on it’s docket in addition to this case, ie the Apple Anti-trust case, Prisoner Civil Rights violations, Civil Rights Violations, et al.
 
After filing the Complaint, Plaintiffs have 60 days to serve Hermes. I don't know if proof of service has been filed with the court, so I don't know if that's been done. Hermes has 30 days to file either an answer ("none of this is true") or demurrer ("there aren't enough facts regardless to claim this is an anti-trust violation" or, "this is the incorrect jurisdiction"). From here the timeline is dependent on who's filing what, which depends on the cards laid out by both parties. It could be years before this reaches trial, assuming it doesn't get dismissed well before then.

And @skyvue I think you're right to point out that the biggest hurdle will be about proving harm to consumers and competition. But I do think there's a (more convincingly hypothetical than legal) argument to be made that consumers are harmed because of alleged tying. If the price of Birkins have only increased because of this practice, then is the across-the-board price increases of handbags in the luxury space something that would have happened, had Hermes not allegedly tied its products? Because that does affect the consumer. We know Chanel did this. Yet while Chanel may have benefitted in their handbag line, their other products may be negatively affected. Same with any other brand in the luxury space. For ex, a consumer may forgo buying a Loro Piana/Chanel/Brunello sweater (thus hurting their sales) because a consumer chose instead to buy from Hermes. Not because she thinks it's a better sweater than what she finds at her favorites, but because it comes with the benefit of bringing her closer to a bag offer.

Plus there's the issue of the effect on smaller businesses. Doesn't have to be fashion. Let's take homeware. Imagine you have just started a luxury furniture shop. The ONLY clients who can afford them are the same small pool of customers who can afford to buy a $30k couch from Hermes, because you make $30k couches, too. Your margins are very slim because you've just started, you've got high overheads and you use expensive, regulatory-heavy inputs like some not-yet-banned-but-close rosewood. You even set up your store in the same affluent neighborhood as Hermes! Your sofa develops a cult following in the luxury community. Hermes sees this, and they want your market share. Or maybe they don't know of your existence or care. Maybe it's just really unfortunate timing, but Hermes has decided to make inroads into the furniture market and they want to compete with Roche Bobois. They want clients buying their 30k sofa. So you know what they do? Offer special orders/limited edition/exclusive wishlist bags to clients who buy a sofa [just as I think IRL they offered SOs for their watch push]. H knows it doesn't have to sell any sofas to stay in business... but you NEED to sell at least 3 a month. You being a small business can no longer compete--those same clients who liked your sofa just as much, or maybe even a little bit more, now have bought H's couch because they really want that bag, and liked the H couch well enough. And the competition wasn't based on Hermes designing or building a better sofa than you, it wasn't based on fair pricing, or anything resembling fair competition in a transparent market. It's because they made a product consumers really want (a bag), contingent on the sale of another. Would you want to be that small business?

As Hermes said in the watch article, "Of course, the brand’s greatest point of difference is its reputation and its enviable position of already having a high-net-worth clientele that flock to the maison in search of the very best. “We have an extreme asset; we know our customer. We can talk directly to our customers.” Yeah, it sure does have another "extreme asset" for those "in search of the very best": its Bs and Ks.

Your example suddenly reminded me of con law and learning about the commerce clause. Ahahaha. Does anyone else remember the stream of commerce and all that jazz? Or that one case about the store that violated the law by including bread with every purchase of milk? Or the farmer who got in trouble for growing his own wheat, because of its supposed effects on the national wheat market?

All that is to say that market regulations are complicated. Antitrust law encompasses the broader range of behaviors that are deemed unfair or anticompetitive in the market. It’s been an interesting thought experiment to think of the Hermes case. Though my prediction is that the case will end in a settlement.

In doing some more research on tying laws, I did learn a few extra things.

The archetype of a legal tying agreement is when a hardware store ties bolts together with nuts. Supposedly, that type of tie is reflective of market efficiency, since the profit the company would’ve otherwise already made from bolts is captured by tying the two products together. The demand for both products is positively correlated.

The archetype of an illegal tying arrangement is a supermarket that refuses to sell flour to customers unless they buy sugar. The tie is illegal as it provides the wrong type of incentive for customers to buy less desirable products. Other examples of illegal tying agreements would be an electric utility company that requires its customers to buy its lightbulbs, or a telephone line company that requires its customers to buy its terminal equipment. All of that is based upon the leverage theory of economic power, elasticity, capturing consumer surplus, etc.

There is also the negative tying agreement. This occurs when sellers will only sell an item if customers agree to not purchase certain other items. But I couldn’t come across a good example of what this would look like in terms of enforcement. The examples I saw were how iPhones are not able to use certain apps. But since that’s an ongoing case with many different allegations, I don’t find it the most intuitive. The other example I saw is if a customer purchases a bread maker, and the bread maker company imposes a condition that customers cannot buy flour from anyone else besides the bread maker company. It seems a bit strange to me in terms of how the seller actually prevents customers from buying flour from other sources. Keurigs and printers come to mind as being potentially negative tying agreements, but there are also generic coffee pods and ink cartridges that are compatible with those machines.
 
There is also the negative tying agreement. This occurs when sellers will only sell an item if customers agree to not purchase certain other items. But I couldn’t come across a good example of what this would look like in terms of enforcement. The examples I saw were how iPhones are not able to use certain apps. But since that’s an ongoing case with many different allegations, I don’t find it the most intuitive. The other example I saw is if a customer purchases a bread maker, and the bread maker company imposes a condition that customers cannot buy flour from anyone else besides the bread maker company. It seems a bit strange to me in terms of how the seller actually prevents customers from buying flour from other sources. Keurigs and printers come to mind as being potentially negative tying agreements, but there are also generic coffee pods and ink cartridges that are compatible with those machines.
HP printers, which misbehaved when you used refurbished / not original cartridges. Ended up in court and IIRC HP lost it.
 
I don’t remember much of first year law and the Commerce clause, but wouldn’t reseller collusion on prices of coveted QBs be a clearer example of price fixing than this allegation of tying? Bc then you’d have two or more ostensible competitors with same or similar reseller prices of pristine rose Sakura mini Kelly bags or gold on gold B25s, etc. or whatnot? Though of course the arg would be the price is whatever the market will bear

At any rate, as per @haute okole and others, the plaintiffs cannot even truthfully allege that Hermes is the only venue where one can buy a coveted QB.
 
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Wow, I knew this was bound to be a doozy of a discussion when I first saw the article in WaPo, but I did not expect 35 pages here on tPF! I especially appreciate the attorneys among us weighing in to explain the nuances of the law, etc.

Of H sales practices, I can’t help but be reminded of a concept in mathematics called the zero-sum game; the net improvement in benefit is zero. For every one person who is able to get a bag (positive for the client because they got a bag and positive for H because they made a sale), there is some number who fall on the negative side because they did not get a bag. Wash, rinse, repeat for every bag sold.

In a way, the practice H uses reminds me of our promotion system at work. I won’t bore everyone with all the details, but the bottom line is there are only so many promotions available and many more deserving employees than not, so management has to figure out how to allocate them fairly. This is both objective (specific criteria you have to meet, but can be filled in a myriad of ways) and part subjective (because human nature). But am I about to sue my employer for whatever the legal equivalent is? No. And that’s because the system, while not fair, was built to be legally defensible. If this lawsuit goes anywhere - and I doubt it will - I suspect the same will be determined here. Fair? No. Legal? Yes.

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. If nothing else, this is generating publicity for H - and I doubt that’s a bad thing. I wouldn’t be surprised if demand goes up because this is raising awareness of a coveted item and people always want what they (think they) can’t have.
 
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