Hermes Cafe Bon Temps~Good Times Cafe

[cremel]

Prepster, Corde, Ppup, Mrs O, greetings! It's Monday again. Wish everyone is having a good start.
As for luxury I like the thoughts you all commented and I agree. I had the best SA of the world for several years till last year he left Hermes for other adventures. He then Referred me to a different SA. The experience at this store has become entirely different since then. My first SA was not pushing for purchase and he has great taste therefore all my scarves( guilty as is I have a large number of scarves) are carefully selected for me and lots of them are timeless pieces. Current SA certainly is more pushing towards all sorts of goods. I am not enjoying shopping there as much. About two weeks back some SA leaked information about a H store from Hawaii. They got a new manager and this new manager is demanding half of a Birkin purchase before offering any Birkin or Kelly to a customer. That was distasteful and I would not step in that store. I understand the business model and all business try to profit from all their goods but hey! There's a limit. Some people do shop there because of love for H.

Agreed with Ppup on the stores in Paris. Lots of people leave FSH extremely disappointed and sometimes angry because they could not score a Birkin or Kelly. I think most of the stores in France appear to be healthy to me. Probably I see more of the pure profit stuff here in US.

What's luxury? A high end handbag itself doesn't mean you have luxury. For us, right now, free time to be with family and be able to travel and visit the world would be the most precious luxury. As sad as it sounds, my DH said we were getting older so fast and if we don't take the time to travel to our dream destination we maybe never will later on. That said I am not giving up my love for my bags yet!! There's still another SA we love to work with in US.

 

[cremel]

I had a HUUUUGE post about my view of luxury, but I think what it comes down to for me is that, yes, luxury does involve scarcity--or, more precisely, RARITY. Here's my thinking: luxury involves something that is, or feels, special. For most of us, white bread and hot showers are generally not luxurious--they are mundane. But if we had no access to bread or hot water, well, these would be luxurious. Special. Coveted. On the other hand, if all the wheat crops in the world failed and a race of alien sturgeon took over the globe and made caviar a staple, roe would cease to be a luxury item and children would be begging their parents, "Pleeeez, mom, not caviar AGAIN! Can't I have peanut butter on Wonder Bread?"
Back before the Internet made everyone and everything famous for a day, Hermes was not well-known except to the super-rich (which, at that time, also usually meant the upper class--I hate the phrase, but so it was), and at that time Hermes bags were readily available. Years ago, Birkins and Kellys could be purchased off the shelf. But they were in relatively low demand, since few could afford them and fewer still knew they existed. Now, the number of super-rich individuals (while still infinitesimal compared to world population) has increased, and every consumer good imaginable is lauded and Instagrammed and blogged about ad nauseum for all to desire. Thus, more demand, more capacity to buy, less availability. If Hermes made itself readily available under these circumstances, H bags would be so ubiquitous as to be undesirable. Indeed, some on this forum feel this point has already been reached.

Luxury, to me, means no more nor less than the best of something, or something that FEELS like the best, because it is a privilege, a blessing, a treat. . . something special in some way. It may be costly or not, but it is rare, because the very best/best-feeling version of something is, rather by definition, limited. A surfeit stops feeling special.

So, IMO, Hermes' efforts to limit production/distribution are appropriate to further the perception of their bags as the best of the best. (And, in addition, it could be argued that the more of something you try to churn out, the more poorly-executed those things will be, as well.)

Anyhow, this looooong post just represents my off-the-top-of-my-pointy-head thoughts on the subject, which is an intriguing one! Prepster, thank you for making me THINK today!

Yes! Mindi very well said!

 

[EmileH]

I find myself biting my tongue and conflicted about responding. It's one thing to allocate the scarce resource- bags- to loyal customers who you know will cherish the bag. It's another thing entirely to give them out as a reward for buying less popular items to meet your sales goals even knowing that someone is likely a reseller. I have witnessed both.

 

[Mindi B]

prepster, I think what you dislike, quite understandably, is the pretense of scarcity. When a customer is told "no Birkin, no Kelly" and this is flat-out untrue, I agree that this leaves a bad taste in one's mouth. Actual scarcity is a different thing altogether. Yet, short of a flat "first come, first served" methodology, the two things (to put it bluntly, lies and actual rarity) go together. If Hermes has determined that they are not willing to sell a Birkin to every person who asks every day until their stock is exhausted (which is clearly the case), then two things happen: (1) the "worthy" clients (I know, it's rather ridiculous) are defined as those who embrace, or seem to embrace, more than just one "it" bag, and (2) those customers who don't fulfill standard #1 will need to be. . . well, lied to, since "We have the bag you want but won't sell it to you because you want only that bag" is unpalatable, to say the least. I can't say it's a moral or easily defensible choice, but so it is.
Hermes is its own little kingdom. If you aren't willing to bend a knee to the rules of monarchy, then luck and a sympathetic SA are your only hope. And that works often enough to keep hope alive. . . .

 

[EmileH]

prepster, I think what you dislike, quite understandably, is the pretense of scarcity. When a customer is told "no Birkin, no Kelly" and this is flat-out untrue, I agree that this leaves a bad taste in one's mouth. Actual scarcity is a different thing altogether. Yet, short of a flat "first come, first served" methodology, the two things (to put it bluntly, lies and actual rarity) go together. If Hermes has determined that they are not willing to sell a Birkin to every person who asks every day until their stock is exhausted (which is clearly the case), then two things happen: (1) the "worthy" clients (I know, it's rather ridiculous) are defined as those who embrace, or seem to embrace, more than just one "it" bag, and (2) those customers who don't fulfill standard #1 will need to be. . . well, lied to, since "We have the bag you want but won't sell it to you because you want only that bag" is unpalatable, to say the least. I can't say it's a moral or easily defensible choice, but so it is.
Hermes is its own little kingdom. If you aren't willing to bend a knee to the rules of monarchy, then luck and a sympathetic SA are your only hope. And that works often enough to keep hope alive. . . .

See that was my thinking. It's not unfair to give the bags to loyal customers. I now feel naive because I have seen customers and SA take it to a different level- the you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours level. It's rather base and does detract from my overall perception of the brand. It's human nature. It is bound to happen. But to the extent possible it should be stomped out by the company.

I'll give you an example- people go on vacation and want to buy a souvenir- maybe even something that they haven't seen at their home store- but they are afraid to buy itbecause their regular SA will be angry. This is not me by the way. I don't play this game. But several people have told me that they won't buy that thing out of fear and some have said their SA will ask them about it if they notice it in the computer. That's distasteful.

 

[momasaurus]

Bumping this up because I've been thinking about it and would like to get your thoughts...

I was journaling with my coffee this morning (in my Rubis Clemence Ulysse! ) about this question: What is Luxury? I wrote out a long list of things that are "luxurious," like space, privacy, time to do as one pleases, objects that meet one's preferences as well as one's needs...etc. And the last entry was this: Knowing you can have what you want, when you want it. I started thinking about Hermes, and their desire to be the ultimate luxury, vs. the scarcity thing they have toyed with in recent years. I wonder if this is a mistake, image-wise.

I get the idea that, psychologically speaking, if you make something hard for the average person to get, they tend to want it more. Everyone kind of assumes this is the way to do things if you want to be exclusive. But I wonder. As elegant a brand as Hermes is, I wonder if this game doesn't actually make them seem less classy--slightly, what? Parsimonious? I say this, because the most elegant people I know, and the most elegant homes I've visited, have always felt grandly, luxuriously generous. As if being with this person, or in this home, your every need will be met. There is nothing, when you are in their gracious care, or in their home that you cannot have or do. All of the scrounging, and scavenging, and schmoozing SAs, that folks have reported having to do to get Hermes products, and the resulting explosion of counterfeits and re-sellers doesn't seem very elegant to me.

Thoughts?

Great post. Scarcity mentality does equate with meanness and stinginess, to me. When you mention luxury (to which let's add grace and generosity), I am reminded of the story of the person who had never been to an elegant dinner party and drank the water in the finger bowl, not knowing what it was. The hostess promptly drank the contents of HER bowl, so as not to embarrass the guest. That is elegance and grace, I think. How does the H mentality fit into this, I wonder? Thank you for your thoughtful post!

 

[MSO13]

See, that's the thing. Would it? I don't know. I mean, that what everyone says, right? But when I insert myself into that equation, it doesn't compute. Maybe I am not normal. I buy Hermes because the products are executed flawlessly, with an attention to detail that I rarely find (so far anyway) in other products, whether it is a bag, a dressage saddle, a lacquer tray or a chair. They already have exclusivity, because almost everything they do, they do better than everyone else. And it takes a long time to produce that item with the limited craftspeople who are capable of it, so that limits availability authentically. So what's with the games and nonsense?

Maybe there is a fear that people wouldn't understand quality for quality's sake or be willing to pay the price for it. On some level do they really believe that the only reason a woman wants a Birkin is because it is hard to get? Are all of the Hermes execs men?

we're toeing a line with this conversation that might offend some tPFers but i'm game

yes, IMO it would. the buyer who seeks to "score a haul" of a coveted bag wouldn't be interested if there was no perceived scarcity. it's not about the brand at all, it's about look what i got. there are A LOT more of these folks then there are people like yourself.

then, people loyal to the brand who are already fed up with the over exposure of the Birkin would seek the next brand that values exclusivity.

Anyone with a credit card limit high enough can charge a Birkin and pay it off over years but H's process is designed to lower the chances of that happening. They are entitled to control who gets their bags.

I have more to add but driving home now. back soon

 

[Cordeliere]

What a fun topic! The elegant people I know don't try to impress. They are genuinely gracious and kind, and that authentic caring about how you feel shows up in refreshing and surprising ways. A friend told me that she tries to step outside of herself, and walk through the guest's experience from the moment they turn into her drive. She feels that "from that point on, their experience is my responsibility, and I want it to be about ease. " (Can they find their way to the house, if they pass the house and have to turn around, are there numbers on both sides of the mailbox? Is it clear where to park? Is the path to the house well-lit?) Is the entrance thoughtfully laid out? What to do with a wet umbrella and raincoat? Is there a place to set a bag while taking off a coat? Is there a place to sit and pull on or take off boots? If it starts raining before people leave, she has an umbrella stand by the front door filled with umbrellas that guests can take with them to stay dry. Little luxuries that add up. I could go on forever--but she just walks through the process this way. What might people want and need when they visit the powder room? What will make having a cup of tea or cocktail especially nice? Oh, and she always sends a guest home with something-a rose cut from the garden, a little box of fruit tea sachets, or a homemade cookie--but you always leave with some small thing. And two days later, you'll get a quick little note in the mail that says how much she enjoyed seeing you. This is someone with a glamorous life, beauty, a vast estate and multiple homes, and she still treats every single person with exactly the same care.

Your description really captures and communicates it. It very much reminds me of an article I read in Christine's magazine about the type of hostess that Joan Rivers was. Thanks for answering my question.

 

[klynneann]

we're toeing a line with this conversation that might offend some tPFers but i'm game

yes, IMO it would. the buyer who seeks to "score a haul" of a coveted bag wouldn't be interested if there was no perceived scarcity. it's not about the brand at all, it's about look what i got. there are A LOT more of these folks then there are people like yourself.

then, people loyal to the brand who are already fed up with the over exposure of the Birkin would seek the next brand that values exclusivity.

Anyone with a credit card limit high enough can charge a Birkin and pay it off over years but H's process is designed to lower the chances of that happening. They are entitled to control who gets their bags.

I have more to add but driving home now. back soon

But how do scarcity and prestige (maybe not the right word exactly, but I think you know what I mean?) fit together? Because it's scarce, it's prestigious? For those who do not have a true appreciation of the brand, but rather want a bag so they can show off that they have one, are they showing off that they are rich? That they have arrived? Or that they have obtained something that is so hard to get?

 

[Cordeliere]

A little detour in the conversation. Did anyone else watch the premiere of The Good Place. I have a rather adolescent sense of humor and this show had me rolling on the floor. TV shows always pack the premiere show with their best stuff, so who knows of the series will be as good. Here's hoping.

 

[cremel]

But how do scarcity and prestige (maybe not the right word exactly, but I think you know what I mean?) fit together? Because it's scarce, it's prestigious? For those who do not have a true appreciation of the brand, but rather want a bag so they can show off that they have one, are they showing off that they are rich? That they have arrived? Or that they have obtained something that is so hard to get?

I think everyone has a certain level of "vanity". I would not mind telling you that sometimes I want to show off my lovely scarf and other times I carry my best bags to meet my friends. It's to what degree that matters. Some simply use expensive to show they are "rich" or "successful" social status, some have to carry high end bags because all their peers do, some are young kids who don't even understand where the bags funding comes from, and finally not lastly some appreciate the artisans' great work at Hermes and the excellent design. I saw that Clint Easywood's daughter's video about burning a red croc Birkin into ashes. That was disgusting. She had zero respect to the effort of the Birkin artisans and is just so low of burning a great piece from Hermes. But she is spoiled and has too much money to burn...

My brother is the youngest marketing and sales VP in a company that requires travel to Asia a lot and he has no choice but only wear very high end suit and ties and brief case. All his peers from Hongkung or Japan wear suits that are made by famous personal tailors. This is just an example for people who have the need to go for high end stuff. I don't necessarily like that kind of culture but I do see that it's a great effort for him to find the stuff that fits him yet high quality and reasonably priced.

On the other hand I also have a dear friend who has a bunch of Birkins and Kelly bags. She never carries them to office. She carries them on selective occasions such as shopping with us or going to see a show etc. I like that. [emoji173]️[emoji173]️we sometimes hang out with our Birkins and we talk about bags a lot. It's fun to carry my favorite bags walking in the street. It makes me smile when people tell me oh that's a beautiful bag. Yeah everyone might have a bit of "show off" kind of mind...[emoji1][emoji23][emoji39]

 

[Mindi B]

But how do scarcity and prestige (maybe not the right word exactly, but I think you know what I mean?) fit together? Because it's scarce, it's prestigious? For those who do not have a true appreciation of the brand, but rather want a bag so they can show off that they have one, are they showing off that they are rich? That they have arrived? Or that they have obtained something that is so hard to get?

Yes, yes, and yes. And I agree with cremel, that even those with a genuine appreciation of H quality and craftsmanship aren't immune to the lure of "signalling" with an H bag or scarf. We are all creatures of our culture, and our culture does make assumptions based on clothing and other superficial elements of appearance, so wanting to convey "I have good taste and the income to indulge it" is understandable, if not admirable. This is probably based on an evolutionary habit so deeply ingrained as to be ineradicable. I am definitely in this group. A British writer said her "armor" includes "frocks, rocks, and slap [makeup]" and this phrase totally resonated with me.

I think prestige and scarcity are correlated, but perhaps only in one direction: that is, for something to be truly prestigious, it must be at least a bit rare (as well as consumer goods, consider awards, titles, etc.), but just because something is rare it isn't necessarily prestigious (exotic diseases, anyone? ).

 

[MSO13]

But how do scarcity and prestige (maybe not the right word exactly, but I think you know what I mean?) fit together? Because it's scarce, it's prestigious? For those who do not have a true appreciation of the brand, but rather want a bag so they can show off that they have one, are they showing off that they are rich? That they have arrived? Or that they have obtained something that is so hard to get?

I am talking more about the perceived scarcity and how that translates to "worth" not value or prestige. This can be the psychological worth or the price someone is willing to pay. I don't think a lot of people would be willing to pay $12K USD for a B35 if they knew anyone who walked in could get one too. I believe that when bags were readily available sitting on shelves, they were close to half the price they are today. As the price goes up, the demand seems to be growing as people try to get in front of the price increases. I wonder at what point they will stop chasing, I think we're approaching it soon in terms of H's prices. When the Euro started to drop, FSH wait times doubled and now with the new system they're slowing down the number of folks who "get lucky" so it's interesting to watch. The trophy hunters wouldn't be interested in the bags if they weren't hard to get in my opinion but that doesn't make the item prestigious. I do think there's a group of H shoppers that think that owning these things means they are above others or rich but as that's not my motivation, I could only speculate. And lest we forget, there is a customer that can walk in to any Hermes and get the bag vault to open, if they spend enough on other things first. That's a smaller group and likely the resellers but they can and do walk in and get whatever is available.

I am a worker bee, the "help" to some of my clients so in many circles I'm not a person that should own H but i value the craftsmanship, simple design and functionality of the pieces I own. They make me feel great and also as Mindi pointed, in some situations signal that taste or perceived success that allows me to own such things. In order for me to part with the amount of money to buy these bags, I like knowing that I won't see my bag coming and going. I rarely see bags and when I do mine are still special and unique as are the bags I see, generally well loved and not trophies. The irony is that I started to buy H as my own personal trophy to commemorate career achievements but now I'm just in love with the brand, the history and the family that still wants to do this stuff by hand as much as possible. Every piece I own makes me a little bit giddy when I reach for it and if it doesn't, I know I shouldn't hang on to it. But I can understand feeling as though one has arrived, I work very hard at my business so to be able to buy my first 90cm scarf when I was featured in a big magazine gave me that feeling of "arriving". That single purchase made me feel as though all my work was moving me in the right direction and that big things were on the horizon so it was worth much more to me than what I paid.

Sorry for rambling, I ended up out with a friend for drinks last night and just woke up!

 

[tabbi001]

I am talking more about the perceived scarcity and how that translates to "worth" not value or prestige. This can be the psychological worth or the price someone is willing to pay. I don't think a lot of people would be willing to pay $12K USD for a B35 if they knew anyone who walked in could get one too. I believe that when bags were readily available sitting on shelves, they were close to half the price they are today. As the price goes up, the demand seems to be growing as people try to get in front of the price increases. I wonder at what point they will stop chasing, I think we're approaching it soon in terms of H's prices. When the Euro started to drop, FSH wait times doubled and now with the new system they're slowing down the number of folks who "get lucky" so it's interesting to watch. The trophy hunters wouldn't be interested in the bags if they weren't hard to get in my opinion but that doesn't make the item prestigious. I do think there's a group of H shoppers that think that owning these things means they are above others or rich but as that's not my motivation, I could only speculate. And lest we forget, there is a customer that can walk in to any Hermes and get the bag vault to open, if they spend enough on other things first. That's a smaller group and likely the resellers but they can and do walk in and get whatever is available.

I am a worker bee, the "help" to some of my clients so in many circles I'm not a person that should own H but i value the craftsmanship, simple design and functionality of the pieces I own. They make me feel great and also as Mindi pointed, in some situations signal that taste or perceived success that allows me to own such things. In order for me to part with the amount of money to buy these bags, I like knowing that I won't see my bag coming and going. I rarely see bags and when I do mine are still special and unique as are the bags I see, generally well loved and not trophies. The irony is that I started to buy H as my own personal trophy to commemorate career achievements but now I'm just in love with the brand, the history and the family that still wants to do this stuff by hand as much as possible. Every piece I own makes me a little bit giddy when I reach for it and if it doesn't, I know I shouldn't hang on to it. But I can understand feeling as though one has arrived, I work very hard at my business so to be able to buy my first 90cm scarf when I was featured in a big magazine gave me that feeling of "arriving". That single purchase made me feel as though all my work was moving me in the right direction and that big things were on the horizon so it was worth much more to me than what I paid.

Sorry for rambling, I ended up out with a friend for drinks last night and just woke up!

I believe that because we work hard to achieve whatever it was we set out to do (career advancement, family achievements, surviving from a disease/accident), we have the inclination to "congratulate" ourselves. When we feel we deserve to get the best, we search for something luxurious and priceless. For some of us, it maybe a dream vacation in your own beachfront villa... or swimming with the dolphins... or filling up your dream house with all the fluffy avalon blankets and pillows and the kitchen with the mosaique tableware... whatever it may be, you just want to prove to yourself that you're life has dramatically improved because you worked hard

 

[klynneann]

I love the Cafe. Always such thoughtful discussion. Thank you all for your responses.