Hermes Cafe Bon Temps~Good Times Cafe

[Mindi B]

Wouldn't it be nice if we could look at ourselves in the mirror and, instead of comparing what we see to Gisele Bundchen, think, "This fits well, I can move in it, and I like the design. Perfect!" You know, think about the clothes and whether THEY work for US, rather than hating on our bodies and feeling WE don't work for the CLOTHES.
I am not saying this is what plays in my head, either--far from it--but, you know, goals.

 

[eagle1002us]

I did something like that with Nordstrom Rack in June. I ordered about 40 tops. Tried them all on in the comfort of my bedroom. Decided to keep about a third of them. Scooped up the other 2/3 and drove to the Rack store less than 10 miles away and got my refund. And while in the store, I picked up a couple of pairs of shorts.

I consider the fit of tops to be semi predictable. The fit of jeans is totally unpredictable in women's jeans. I have always done the men's route so I can order waist and inseam. It would never occur to me to order a bunch of jeans and return 95%. That is one of the great things about the Cafe--new ideas.

The free shipping through Amazon is brilliant.

I started doing that with Lord & Taylor (very close by).
I never thought of men's pants. As a result I wind up hemming a lot of them according to my inseam. Either that or they sit in the closet for quite a while.

 

[Cordeliere]

I started doing that with Lord & Taylor (very close by).
I never thought of men's pants. As a result I wind up hemming a lot of them according to my inseam. Either that or they sit in the closet for quite a while.

I have been wearing the same style of Levi's 501 (button up) jeans since 1975. My weight goes up, so does the waist size. My weight goes down. So does the waist size. It helps that I have slim hips.

 

[prepster]

Blabbermouth here with more comments. I continued to think about what "special" means. Did a google search on "What is luxury?" The Victoria and Albert museum had an exhibit dedicated to this question last year. The article about it had some thoughts that I thought were clarifying. I know this is a long post that is hard to read because there are quotes from the article and quotes from people here. There are three main ideas.

This explanation of luxury goods makers certainly captures Hermes:

Makers of luxury are inspired by passion and curiosity for the intricate nature of objects, the potential of materials, and complex techniques...Making luxury is not concerned with practical solutions but with the extraordinary, non-essential and exclusive. Mastery of a craft and exceptional expertise are demonstrated by outstanding precision, attention to detail and remarkable finishes. Such quality is achieved by challenging and broadening established standards of craftsmanship and accepted categories of design. The resulting work combines high levels of innovation with a respect for craft traditions.




Here is what it said about people who consume luxury goods:

Luxury has the potential to unlock dreams of being somewhere else or someone else.




I am going to mention things people have said here that suggests this theme.

Mindi: " it represented a sort of French elegance and old world monied status (yes, that word) to me."



PBP: "When I carry my Colvert Kelly I am instantly transported to a sunny day in May in Paris, specials memories of people and places and the sounds of jazz in a Parisian cafe."

ouija board (from Chat): " My favorite movie with H in it is Heartbreakers with Vanessa Paradis. Makes me want a rouge vif Kelly, because it'll instantly make me look slim, chic, and carefree if I have one, lol."

For me, when I carry my H, I tap in to my inner Jackie O, Grace Kelly, Carolyn Bessette, Princess Di, etc.


And the final thought from that article is having Hermes items gives us a chance to interact with something extraordinary. Maybe extraordinary is a better word to describe Hermes than quality. Yeah the even stitches are great. The leather is incredible. But the whole experience is greater than the sum of the parts. All the individual excellence adds up to extraordinary.

Bumping this up because I've been thinking about it and would like to get your thoughts...

I was journaling with my coffee this morning (in my Rubis Clemence Ulysse! ) about this question: What is Luxury? I wrote out a long list of things that are "luxurious," like space, privacy, time to do as one pleases, objects that meet one's preferences as well as one's needs...etc. And the last entry was this: Knowing you can have what you want, when you want it. I started thinking about Hermes, and their desire to be the ultimate luxury, vs. the scarcity thing they have toyed with in recent years. I wonder if this is a mistake, image-wise.

I get the idea that, psychologically speaking, if you make something hard for the average person to get, they tend to want it more. Everyone kind of assumes this is the way to do things if you want to be exclusive. But I wonder. As elegant a brand as Hermes is, I wonder if this game doesn't actually make them seem less classy--slightly, what? Parsimonious? I say this, because the most elegant people I know, and the most elegant homes I've visited, have always felt grandly, luxuriously generous. As if being with this person, or in this home, your every need will be met. There is nothing, when you are in their gracious care, or in their home that you cannot have or do. All of the scrounging, and scavenging, and schmoozing SAs, that folks have reported having to do to get Hermes products, and the resulting explosion of counterfeits and re-sellers doesn't seem very elegant to me.

Thoughts?

 

[gracekelly]

I did something like that with Nordstrom Rack in June. I ordered about 40 tops. Tried them all on in the comfort of my bedroom. Decided to keep about a third of them. Scooped up the other 2/3 and drove to the Rack store less than 10 miles away and got my refund. And while in the store, I picked up a couple of pairs of shorts.

I consider the fit of tops to be semi predictable. The fit of jeans is totally unpredictable in women's jeans. I have always done the men's route so I can order waist and inseam. It would never occur to me to order a bunch of jeans and return 95%. That is one of the great things about the Cafe--new ideas.

The free shipping through Amazon is brilliant.

I hate trying on jeans. I never find a good fit. I think you slim hips are the ticket to a good fit. My curviness makes it very difficult. The one black corduroy jean that I loved was a pair if men's from the GAP. Why did I give it away? I will definitely look into the AG jean!

 

[EmileH]

Bumping this up because I've been thinking about it and would like to get your thoughts...

I was journaling with my coffee this morning (in my Rubis Clemence Ulysse! ) about this question: What is Luxury? I wrote out a long list of things that are "luxurious," like space, privacy, time to do as one pleases, objects that meet one's preferences as well as one's needs...etc. And the last entry was this: Knowing you can have what you want, when you want it. I started thinking about Hermes, and their desire to be the ultimate luxury, vs. the scarcity thing they have toyed with in recent years. I wonder if this is a mistake, image-wise.

I get the idea that, psychologically speaking, if you make something hard for the average person to get, they tend to want it more. Everyone kind of assumes this is the way to do things if you want to be exclusive. But I wonder. As elegant a brand as Hermes is, I wonder if this game doesn't actually make them seem less classy--slightly, what? Parsimonious? I say this, because the most elegant people I know, and the most elegant homes I've visited, have always felt grandly, luxuriously generous. As if being with this person, or in this home, your every need will be met. There is nothing, when you are in their gracious care, or in their home that you cannot have or do. All of the scrounging, and scavenging, and schmoozing SAs, that folks have reported having to do to get Hermes products, and the resulting explosion of counterfeits and re-sellers doesn't seem very elegant to me.

Thoughts?

I missed this post completely. Games of any sort decrease the luxury of a brand- whether it's high pressure tactics or scarcity of goods. I like to enjoy the experience of my purchases so I try to limit my exposure to such games although we are all exposed to it to some degree and we all willingly participate. At the point that it is no longer enjoyable or no longer feels right to me I take a step back.

 

[Cordeliere]

What is Luxury? I wrote out a long list of things that are "luxurious," like space, privacy, time to do as one pleases, objects that meet one's preferences as well as one's needs...etc. And the last entry was this: Knowing you can have what you want, when you want it.
As elegant a brand as Hermes is, I wonder if this game doesn't actually make them seem less classy--slightly, what? Parsimonious? I say this, because the most elegant people I know, and the most elegant homes I've visited, have always felt grandly, luxuriously generous. As if being with this person, or in this home, your every need will be met. There is nothing, when you are in their gracious care, or in their home that you cannot have or do. All of the scrounging, and scavenging, and schmoozing SAs, that folks have reported having to do to get Hermes products, and the resulting explosion of counterfeits and re-sellers doesn't seem very elegant to me. Thoughts?

I edited down your quote slightly so the parts I wanted to highlight would show. I love your definition of luxury. It makes me appreciate how much luxury I have that I take for granted. I want to go to your friends' houses. It sounds truly luxurious. I want my house to be that way for my guests. Thank you for sharing that observation. Edit: In fact, could you share something that you could do or have in their homes that felt especially luxurious.

Totally agree that the experience of acquiring Hermes is the antithesis of luxury. Having it is good. Getting it is a distasteful experience.

 

[MSO13]

I edited down your quote slightly so the parts I wanted to highlight would show. I love your definition of luxury. It makes me appreciate how much luxury I have that I take for granted. I want to go to your friends' houses. It sounds truly luxurious. I want my house to be that way for my guests. Thank you for sharing that observation. Edit: In fact, could you share something that you could do or have in their homes that felt especially luxurious.

Totally agree that the experience of acquiring Hermes is the antithesis of luxury. Having it is good. Getting it is a distasteful experience.

While I think the games in Paris sound distasteful , I genuinely feel a friendship and affection for my SA and for most of the staff at my local store. I have become very friendly with the managers as well and enjoy spending time there even when I'm not buying anything. I never feel like I'm playing games or if I do, it's because I'm worrying about games but I generally believe that if they had what I wanted to sell me-they would. If I don't get the call, it's because they know I want very specific things that they don't have. Plus my SA is always telling me about things that are not on my list. I have a feeling I'm going to find Paris shopping to be quite a shock.

I think the forum is full of extremes with Hermes, it's either fans of the brand hoping to start their collection who are disappointed that it can take a long time to get what you want and the very long time collectors who have strong relationships with their stores and can get what they want pretty much on schedule even if they don't consider themselves VIPs. If you can get your bags, in the colors you want at regular 6-9 month intervals you're a strong client. I'm somewhere in between. I also don't think it's wrong of Hermes to push the sales of their other items to sell the bags that customers really want. If they readily gave the bags to anyone would could buy them, the value and cache would go way down. Personally I will continue to buy what I love because using the things that I have is a true luxury for me.

I also think there are different ways to express luxury. If quality and longevity remain pillars of the brand, making something we buy that can last for generations is also luxurious. Their stores (at least the new ones) are beautiful and thoughtfully designed, also a luxury. The several dinged up and popped stitch Chanels I've handled recently did not feel luxurious nor did the pushy salesperson.

I wonder how much of the reseller and sales game has to do with the fact that 50 years ago, I doubt anyone owned 20 multiples of the bags but now having one is just not enough. Why wouldn't the directors of the company leverage that demand into huge sales increases in the other categories. It allows them to continue to employ their craftspeople and expand their products while buying up ateliers that produced hand crafted items. Preserving a traditional craft industry will be their ultimate legacy if they can maintain it.

 

[Cordeliere]

^^^
You make a good point. For established customers, it can be a pleasant experience. And you are also right about Hermes business model. A business is in business to be profitable and should do what it has to do. Hermes interests and my interests are not in accord, so for me it is distasteful. But it is good to be reminded it is not that way for many here.

 

[EmileH]

While I think the games in Paris sound distasteful , I genuinely feel a friendship and affection for my SA and for most of the staff at my local store. I have become very friendly with the managers as well and enjoy spending time there even when I'm not buying anything. I never feel like I'm playing games or if I do, it's because I'm worrying about games but I generally believe that if they had what I wanted to sell me-they would. If I don't get the call, it's because they know I want very specific things that they don't have. Plus my SA is always telling me about things that are not on my list. I have a feeling I'm going to find Paris shopping to be quite a shock.

I think the forum is full of extremes with Hermes, it's either fans of the brand hoping to start their collection who are disappointed that it can take a long time to get what you want and the very long time collectors who have strong relationships with their stores and can get what they want pretty much on schedule even if they don't consider themselves VIPs. If you can get your bags, in the colors you want at regular 6-9 month intervals you're a strong client. I'm somewhere in between. I also don't think it's wrong of Hermes to push the sales of their other items to sell the bags that customers really want. If they readily gave the bags to anyone would could buy them, the value and cache would go way down. Personally I will continue to buy what I love because using the things that I have is a true luxury for me.

I also think there are different ways to express luxury. If quality and longevity remain pillars of the brand, making something we buy that can last for generations is also luxurious. Their stores (at least the new ones) are beautiful and thoughtfully designed, also a luxury. The several dinged up and popped stitch Chanels I've handled recently did not feel luxurious nor did the pushy salesperson.

I wonder how much of the reseller and sales game has to do with the fact that 50 years ago, I doubt anyone owned 20 multiples of the bags but now having one is just not enough. Why wouldn't the directors of the company leverage that demand into huge sales increases in the other categories. It allows them to continue to employ their craftspeople and expand their products while buying up ateliers that produced hand crafted items. Preserving a traditional craft industry will be their ultimate legacy if they can maintain it.

Well said Mrs Owen. You make some very good points.

I want to reassure you that my Paris shopping experiences have all been delightful. I think if you read the Paris shopping thread you will come away with a different view. Many of the people on that thread are only interested in getting a coveted bag. I have found all of the SAs at the Paris stores to be friendly and helpful. I try to have a healthy attitude about it. I am happy to look for merchandise that is on my wishlist that I can't find at home. The stores are beautiful and fun to see. And if they happen to have a bag that is on my wishlist it's the icing on the cake. But I don't leave disappointed if they don't have it. I truly believe it's luck if they have what you want. They seem to really want people to leave happy. Now that I have been back a few times I also have nice relationships with several SAs, which is wonderful, but truthfully I have always enjoyed my visits. The shopping experience in Paris at most stores is lovely. There is a pleasant formality and slowness of pace that makes it very enjoyable.

 

[EmileH]

^^^
You make a good point. For established customers, it can be a pleasant experience. And you are also right about Hermes business model. A business is in business to be profitable and should do what it has to do. Hermes interests and my interests are not in accord, so for me it is distasteful. But it is good to be reminded it is not that way for many here.

I have definitely seen both sides of the coin. There is a nasty underbelly to some of this. Its not all flowers and sunshine. That comes as much from some of the customers as some of the staff.

 

[prepster]

I missed this post completely. Games of any sort decrease the luxury of a brand- whether it's high pressure tactics or scarcity of goods. I like to enjoy the experience of my purchases so I try to limit my exposure to such games although we are all exposed to it to some degree and we all willingly participate. At the point that it is no longer enjoyable or no longer feels right to me I take a step back.

I've never had a bad experience at Hermes, and have always been treated wonderfully in every H store, but then again, I've never tried to buy a Birkin. (Not that they aren't absolutely beautiful! ). It is distressing to hear some of the experiences of gals (and guys) on tPF, and I wish that was so rare it would be mostly unheard of. I wish Hermes would focus on ultra-high quality products and ultra-amazing service that exceeds expectations, charge whatever prices they need to charge to be able to make all that happen, then leave all of the low-brow games for lesser companies. I still buy and love Hermes, but it is the one thing that gives me pause. It may also be the back door they leave open for competitors.

Edit: In fact, could you share something that you could do or have in their homes that felt especially luxurious.

What a fun topic! The elegant people I know don't try to impress. They are genuinely gracious and kind, and that authentic caring about how you feel shows up in refreshing and surprising ways. A friend told me that she tries to step outside of herself, and walk through the guest's experience from the moment they turn into her drive. She feels that "from that point on, their experience is my responsibility, and I want it to be about ease. " (Can they find their way to the house, if they pass the house and have to turn around, are there numbers on both sides of the mailbox? Is it clear where to park? Is the path to the house well-lit?) Is the entrance thoughtfully laid out? What to do with a wet umbrella and raincoat? Is there a place to set a bag while taking off a coat? Is there a place to sit and pull on or take off boots? If it starts raining before people leave, she has an umbrella stand by the front door filled with umbrellas that guests can take with them to stay dry. Little luxuries that add up. I could go on forever--but she just walks through the process this way. What might people want and need when they visit the powder room? What will make having a cup of tea or cocktail especially nice? Oh, and she always sends a guest home with something-a rose cut from the garden, a little box of fruit tea sachets, or a homemade cookie--but you always leave with some small thing. And two days later, you'll get a quick little note in the mail that says how much she enjoyed seeing you. This is someone with a glamorous life, beauty, a vast estate and multiple homes, and she still treats every single person with exactly the same care.

 

[Mindi B]

I had a HUUUUGE post about my view of luxury, but I think what it comes down to for me is that, yes, luxury does involve scarcity--or, more precisely, RARITY. Here's my thinking: luxury involves something that is, or feels, special. For most of us, white bread and hot showers are generally not luxurious--they are mundane. But if we had no access to bread or hot water, well, these would be luxurious. Special. Coveted. On the other hand, if all the wheat crops in the world failed and a race of alien sturgeon took over the globe and made caviar a staple, roe would cease to be a luxury item and children would be begging their parents, "Pleeeez, mom, not caviar AGAIN! Can't I have peanut butter on Wonder Bread?"
Back before the Internet made everyone and everything famous for a day, Hermes was not well-known except to the super-rich (which, at that time, also usually meant the upper class--I hate the phrase, but so it was), and at that time Hermes bags were readily available. Years ago, Birkins and Kellys could be purchased off the shelf. But they were in relatively low demand, since few could afford them and fewer still knew they existed. Now, the number of super-rich individuals (while still infinitesimal compared to world population) has increased, and every consumer good imaginable is lauded and Instagrammed and blogged about ad nauseum for all to desire. Thus, more demand, more capacity to buy, less availability. If Hermes made itself readily available under these circumstances, H bags would be so ubiquitous as to be undesirable. Indeed, some on this forum feel this point has already been reached.

Luxury, to me, means no more nor less than the best of something, or something that FEELS like the best, because it is a privilege, a blessing, a treat. . . something special in some way. It may be costly or not, but it is rare, because the very best/best-feeling version of something is, rather by definition, limited. A surfeit stops feeling special.

So, IMO, Hermes' efforts to limit production/distribution are appropriate to further the perception of their bags as the best of the best. (And, in addition, it could be argued that the more of something you try to churn out, the more poorly-executed those things will be, as well.)

Anyhow, this looooong post just represents my off-the-top-of-my-pointy-head thoughts on the subject, which is an intriguing one! Prepster, thank you for making me THINK today!

 

[MSO13]

I definitely agree about Rarity @Mindi B for me that is free/leisure time and it's the ultimate luxury for me. Plus if I have too much free time I start to go crazy and miss work so I hope it continues to be that way. I love my work too so that's also a luxury, despite what Instagram and millennials say it's a true privilege and luxury to get to own your own business doing something you love and that you're good at. Somehow there's a perception that everyone is entitled to this but I don't agree. It's a massive amount of work and not everyone will succeed. Time with my family, cats and husband is my favorite luxury but don't tell my shawls!

 

[prepster]

If they readily gave the bags to anyone would could buy them, the value and cache would go way down.

See, that's the thing. Would it? I don't know. I mean, that what everyone says, right? But when I insert myself into that equation, it doesn't compute. Maybe I am not normal. I buy Hermes because the products are executed flawlessly, with an attention to detail that I rarely find (so far anyway) in other products, whether it is a bag, a dressage saddle, a lacquer tray or a chair. They already have exclusivity, because almost everything they do, they do better than everyone else. And it takes a long time to produce that item with the limited craftspeople who are capable of it, so that limits availability authentically. So what's with the games and nonsense?

Maybe there is a fear that people wouldn't understand quality for quality's sake or be willing to pay the price for it. On some level do they really believe that the only reason a woman wants a Birkin is because it is hard to get? Are all of the Hermes execs men?