Help me pick a Tiffany diamond!

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That was what I was told too. They don't "use" GIA - they source already-graded diamonds from other labs, then independently grade them themselves. It might have been AGS that she said as well as GIA - GIA is the only one I know of enough by name and she said some other lab as well - but I'm not sure, that's why I said I wasn't sure.

Anyway I wasn't really asking for opinions on Tiffany's diamonds - I was wondering if their "presence" description was something they created or something that was on all certs.

Sprinkles your necklace sounds gorgeous! I'll definitely ask for the GIA for my 2+ carat when it comes just to show everyone here Tiffany isn't out to cheat everyone! :)
 
I grade cut quality for myself by angles and percents. Those three labs will offer that information up. Tiffany's doesn't always offer that information, nor do they always record it on a cert for you.

In my experience they do offer all of the angles/percents on every stone - all you have to do is ask someone to pull the diamond certificate and you can get all of those numbers quite easily. My certificate has all of them and I pulled three (actually to tell the truth I didn't even have to ask, she had them printed out for me!) in Naples when I came to see the stones. They definitely seem above board to me when it comes to giving you all the information you could want to make your own decision.
 
I think that is usually a store by store thing, and you are also dealing in larger dollars than the average buyer for them, though in Naples and a few other locations you're probably right on par. I think when someone is spending the money with them, they do more legwork for you with or without asking. My local store is a joke, in every possible description you can think of. They don't do any work for anyone even a serious buyer, they are rude, and they are grossly misinformed about diamonds as a whole. The best Tiffany experience I had was the Chicago store down on Michigan. But it's been fairly hit or miss since. Then again, Im rarely in the market when I go in there anymore.

AGS is a good lab, particularly for cut. I don't find them bang on with color or clarity, but I kind of think no lab is right on the money all three. I tend to think GIA is right on with color and usually clarity despite their recent stupid changes, I think AGS is always right on cut, and mostly right on color, not so much clarity, and EGL-USA is particularly harsh on clarity, but about a grade off on Color, though lately I've seen some bang on.
 
Thanks Ame, great to know about those two labs! I guess it is still a subjective thing in the end and I kind of like the mathematical precision of the TIL range/score so am really glad to have found that here too! That seems much less subjective to me so I really trust it if it says it's an excellent performer and never would have known to check that without this forum!

You're right about the Tiffany's location making a difference I think! We have two in Toronto and the one at Yorkdale mall is okay... but definitely not my fav place to go for fine jewelry. It's a totally different feel/staff/level of expertise. I had the feeling in the first year or two that the entire staff was in training still and had some not-so-great customer service moments there (like being told I had to wait in the 2 hour Christmas line-up two years ago to pick up an already paid for special order!! I complained big time about that one and made them ship it to me at home!) Bloor St. has the Canadian flagship (I think there are only 4-5 in Canada anyway) and has more selection, more senior staff and they seem to have MUCH more imagination/flexibility/seniority/clout when it comes to exchanges/returns/adjusting upgrade policies to make you happy. They've taken back already sized celebration rings (unworn) and always are happy to bring things in/give US pricing on big items. Yorkdale would laugh if I asked that! But it keeps me coming back!

Naples is the same size as Yorkdale but is quiet, classy and professional, and situated in a very high end mall (all the stores there are names like Cartier, VCA, Hermes... dangerous!!) and I think you're right... expensive clientele = better service. They were lovely to deal with - very proactive and even offered a trans-border upgrade! (bought in Canada/upgrade in US) I was really impressed with them! It probably does depend on the location!
 
Thanks Ame, great to know about those two labs! I guess it is still a subjective thing in the end and I kind of like the mathematical precision of the TIL range/score so am really glad to have found that here too! That seems much less subjective to me so I really trust it if it says it's an excellent performer and never would have known to check that without this forum!
It is definitely subjective. Every grader sees different things and weights them accordingly. The more educated a buyer you are (knowing how to loupe and what you're looking for, general ranges for angles and percentages, how to find things on a plot inside the stone) the better. Most stores/jewelers will appreciate an educated customer. Others will freak out and change their game plan. When you find a resistant jeweler...RUN out the door (maybe even like Phoebe on Friends!). Also understand that it's not common or likely many brick and mortar stores will meet online pricing. They have more overhead and you're paying for that and the convenience of it being in front of you already.

You're right about the Tiffany's location making a difference I think! We have two in Toronto and the one at Yorkdale mall is okay... but definitely not my fav place to go for fine jewelry. It's a totally different feel/staff/level of expertise. I had the feeling in the first year or two that the entire staff was in training still and had some not-so-great customer service moments there (like being told I had to wait in the 2 hour Christmas line-up two years ago to pick up an already paid for special order!! I complained big time about that one and made them ship it to me at home!) Bloor St. has the Canadian flagship (I think there are only 4-5 in Canada anyway) and has more selection, more senior staff and they seem to have MUCH more imagination/flexibility/seniority/clout when it comes to exchanges/returns/adjusting upgrade policies to make you happy. They've taken back already sized celebration rings (unworn) and always are happy to bring things in/give US pricing on big items. Yorkdale would laugh if I asked that! But it keeps me coming back!

Naples is the same size as Yorkdale but is quiet, classy and professional, and situated in a very high end mall (all the stores there are names like Cartier, VCA, Hermes... dangerous!!) and I think you're right... expensive clientele = better service. They were lovely to deal with - very proactive and even offered a trans-border upgrade! (bought in Canada/upgrade in US) I was really impressed with them! It probably does depend on the location!
Oh I absolutely believe that location thing, and the clientele. It's AMAZING how smaller market and "poorer market" stores operate. It's obnoxious here. We only have the one, and I tend to avoid that mall already bec it's full of jerky snobby people. We haven't had a Cartier here in a decade, that was in a diff mall, and never a VCA or Hermes. We're not big enough market for them.
 
Interesting... so I keep getting deeper into this research as I wait for my rings to come in :) and running all four diamonds through this calculator

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamond-education/diamond-cut/

and the GIA Diamond Cut Grading System chart, they all DO in fact fall within Ideal or Excellent cut grades. Tiffany's (it seems!) is telling 100% truth about "all of their diamonds being excellent cuts"! At least in my experience!

This includes my diamond which only scored 3.9 on the HCA... so what does that mean? My diamond fell in the 'ideal' grade. So why isn't it TIL range on the HCA???
 
Interesting... so I keep getting deeper into this research as I wait for my rings to come in :) and running all four diamonds through this calculator

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamond-education/diamond-cut/

and the GIA Diamond Cut Grading System chart, they all DO in fact fall within Ideal or Excellent cut grades. Tiffany's (it seems!) is telling 100% truth about "all of their diamonds being excellent cuts"! At least in my experience!

This includes my diamond which only scored 3.9 on the HCA... so what does that mean? My diamond fell in the 'ideal' grade. So why isn't it TIL range on the HCA???

This is gonna sound odd! I bought my diamond at James Allen. We looked at thier True Hearts and Ideal cuts. It was down to 2 stones. One was True Hearts, one Ideal.
My stoneI picked is a 1.4 on the HCA and was listed as Ideal on James Allen. The True Hearts was a 2.9 on the HCA.
I have seen this happen a lot as I ran stats.

That said, I went to Tiffany's and am looking into the soleste. LOL. it is soo pretty. I fell in love. I do not want to give up my diamond I got from James Allen as I was offered the same price as I paid for it from a few venders. It is 1.15, but the cut is amazing!

I do belive Tiffany's there diamonds perfectly, I do think there are some duds in there/ You were happy with your 1.5. , before the HCA. I love the HCA, but it also drove me nutts looking for perfect angles and getting triple x's.
 
Interesting... so I keep getting deeper into this research as I wait for my rings to come in :) and running all four diamonds through this calculator

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamond-education/diamond-cut/

and the GIA Diamond Cut Grading System chart, they all DO in fact fall within Ideal or Excellent cut grades. Tiffany's (it seems!) is telling 100% truth about "all of their diamonds being excellent cuts"! At least in my experience!

This includes my diamond which only scored 3.9 on the HCA... so what does that mean? My diamond fell in the 'ideal' grade. So why isn't it TIL range on the HCA???

Well, GIA didn't start "grading" cut til recently, late 2000's I believe. And even then, they don't really grade cut. They really only started doing it on their reports because they had to to stay alive. The marketing of ideal cuts and H&A has kind of forced them into it and they now have to compete against a lab like AGS who specializes in cut grading.

GIA might be very reputable in the other characteristics but as far as cut, they kind of have their own system and one that is very fluid right now. I thought it was based on Tolkowsky standards but now I think it's kind of a mix and match of a few things and it's quite broad and doesn't seem to have uniformity. So far it seems like a lot of estimating to me. I know it's based on several characteristics that the HCA does not really factor in, star facets, painting, etc. They've been "researching" it for like 20 or 30 years now though. I will be very curious where it ends up. AGS has a pretty solid set of angles and characteristics of what they deem ideal, based on angles and percentages and symmetry.

Also, GIA doesn't assign IDEAL as a cut quality grade, their highest is Excellent. To me, they assign an awful lot of stones to Excellent that to AGS or even the HCA scale would not really qualify as such. AGS does use IDEAL, though. They pioneered that specific grading report system, really. And they developed their system for grading cut on a SARIN machine and the results it would produce. They also developed the ASET scope which helped identify the facets that weren't at the most ideal angles for the best light return and identify facets and cutting patterns that might allow for more "leakage", areas that the light isn't reflected back, and instead just goes right through the stone. Tiffany grades their own, sometimes based on GIA/AGS certs on stones they purchase. So they might also use IDEAL in house but I have no idea where they pull that from and what criteria they use to assign IDEAL to something.

Garry Holloway developed HCA to help weed out stones that were likely not great performers in terms of angles and numbers. The HCA factors in spread beyond just brilliance, fire and scint, and it's desirability to the buyer. If you can spend slightly less on a smaller stone that is cut phenomenally well and looks as big as one that is less well cut and doesn't look as big as it should, obviously you will want the one that looks amazing and is slightly smaller in number but looks as big as a bigger stone. If it's cut properly it's got edge to edge brightness, meaning it will look spreadier.

So short answer: while your stone might have said Excellent Cut via GIA, the angles that the HCA is developed to accept as ideal and produce the most light return will return a less than favorable score because it falls outside of the HCA cut parameters he has set.

His little system though is not the end all be all at diamond buying. I have seen some AMAZING stones that fell in the 3 and 4 range. I have also seen some DOGS in the 1 range. It isn't the ultimate decider, it just helps you identify which ones to view with your eyes. I have also seen stones in person that are AGS Ideal and pass through all the machines with amazing numbers and results and then next to a GIA Excellent that got less than amazing numbers and results look less than awesome. Just because it's good on paper, doens't mean it will be good to the eyes, and vice versa. And just because some computer tells you it's the best damn thing ever, doesn't mean you're gonna love it when you see it.

Also--AGS has a pretty scientific system for picking stones out as IDEAL, as does the HCA. But grading as a whole, and how GIA would generally do so, beyond facetware, is subjective. Just like taste. Everyone likes different things.
 
LOL seriously!!! Just read it but am going to re-read it again! I'm spinning. I think I have too much information! LOL - how did people buy diamonds before the internet??!!!

Thanks so much - I was hoping you would answer tonight! I mean - the TIL range thing seems pretty mathematically pure to me which is why I appreciate it...

You're right - the GIA graph I used for the Tiffany diamonds' top rank was 'excellent'. My diamond did fall right in the middle of their excellent parameters (as did the other 3 I have certificates for) and yet the HCA was 3.9. I think 2 of the 4 I have certificates for were in the "excellent" under 2.0 score on HCA.

I mean to me my diamond is beautiful! But now I really want to hold it up against that diamond with the 1.3 HCA score (VS 1 G 2.0 carat) again and see if it looks less special to me. I hope that I have as good an eye for fire and brilliance as I do for colour... I don't want to get too carried away with all of this and yet want to know I have a special stone.

I think basically I do NOT want to see "very good - buy if the price is right" beside any diamond I buy from Tiffany's on the HCA! LOL - because as we all know the price is never "right" there... no bargains to be had! ;) I'm dying to know what the 2.10's score is but I think I'm driving my SA nuts!

I wonder where my diamond falls on the AGS scale... do you know of somewhere I can plug the stats in to find out, Ame?

Thanks again!! This is fun but dizzying. I'll be such a pro by the end of this all!
 
I have read all of your post here ame, and really confused now :-) too much information to get. I usually buy diamond with GIA certs and never try AGS (really interested in their HCA standard). Same question as surfergirljen, how to plug the stats in to find out abt AGS scale? Thanks a lot.
 
I wonder where my diamond falls on the AGS scale... do you know of somewhere I can plug the stats in to find out, Ame?

I don't know of anywhere, honestly. I have never seen such a tool for this stuff online. They have some charts based on size in mm, table percentage and then angles. They kind of want people to rely on the ASET scope results instead of really having such a tool.

Here's a list (down the left) with charts based on MM (not carat!) by table size.

http://agslab.com/light-performance-cut-grade.php

http://www.agslab.com/members/content/docs/Complete_Explanation_of_AGS_Cut_System.pdf
 
So Ame - do you think as long as your diamond fit into these parameters it would be considered ideal? Can that be a good assumption?
 

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Where's that from? Looks about right. 52% table is quite low for my tastes.

My general "rule" for ideal is 55-57% table, 61-62% depth, thin-medium girdle, no culet/pointed, 34-35% crown angle (ideally for me 34.5ish), 40.5-41 pavilion. But that's mostly about the middle of the ranges.
 
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