CITES, travel and exotics

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#76
It is imposrtant to rememver what CITES is
Convention for International Trading of endangered species.

What you get when you get a "Cites" from Hermes is a permit of exportation to your country of residence.

Cites permit only applies when there is a transfer of ownership AND country of final destination of the specimen( bag)... (dead or alive).

Clearly, I won't get a Cites permit when I buy an exotic in my country of residence.

Clearly as well, I won't need a Cites permit if I cross a border with a bag I own...
As far as I have bought the bag in my country of residence, or I have bought the bag in another country and have legally imported the bag in my own country (legally means paid VAT of my country AND registered with CITE buro). Everything else is pure fantasy.

Travelling is not the same thing as changing country of residence / country of final destination.
 
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#77
Hermeschicuk; I have an alligator Bays from Mulberry (not printed); The SM did not give me any certificate. He said the invoice should be okay, and If it's for your own use you shouldn't get any problems. I don't think he knew a lot about it -though -or had experience with this topic....
 
#78
I have travelled to both the US and around europe with Lizard & ostrich wallets and Croc bracelets. I have not been issued with Cites certificates for any of them. They were bought from several different H stores both UK & Europe & Switzerland and I was always told by the store that you did not need Cites. I have never been stopped even when I had several croc bangles on my arm going through security. HTH
 
#79
perlerare said:
It is imposrtant to rememver what CITES is
Convention for International Trading of endangered species.

What you get when you get a "Cites" from Hermes is a permit of exportation to your country of residence.

Cites permit only applies when there is a transfer of ownership AND country of final destination of the specimen( bag)... (dead or alive).

Clearly, I won't get a Cites permit when I buy an exotic in my country of residence.

Clearly as well, I won't need a Cites permit if I cross a border with a bag I own...
As far as I have bought the bag in my country of residence, or I have bought the bag in another country and have legally imported the bag in my own country (legally means paid VAT of my country AND registered with CITE buro). Everything else is pure fantasy.

Travelling is not the same thing as changing country of residence / country of final destination.
Click to expand...

As usual the voice of wisdom
Thankyou Perlare for making it crystal clear:smile1:
 
#80
perlerare said:
It is imposrtant to rememver what CITES is
Convention for International Trading of endangered species.

What you get when you get a "Cites" from Hermes is a permit of exportation to your country of residence.

Cites permit only applies when there is a transfer of ownership AND country of final destination of the specimen( bag)... (dead or alive).

Clearly, I won't get a Cites permit when I buy an exotic in my country of residence.

Clearly as well, I won't need a Cites permit if I cross a border with a bag I own...
As far as I have bought the bag in my country of residence, or I have bought the bag in another country and have legally imported the bag in my own country (legally means paid VAT of my country AND registered with CITE buro). Everything else is pure fantasy.

Travelling is not the same thing as changing country of residence / country of final destination.
Click to expand...

I bought my exotics in my country of residence and I got a CITES with them. Not to mention that several Hermes SA's told me to be sure to take it with me when I travel. One of my SA's said a customer's bag got confiscated when she was coming back home from France because she didn't have the CITES. So I don't think it is just about changing residence. In fact when I bought my first exotic, they could not find the CITES. They couldn't stress to me enough that I should NOT leave the country with that bag until they sent me the CITES. Suffice it to say I would think that to be on the safe side, if you travel with an exotic, you should have the CITES with you.
 
#81
Thanks for sharing, nathansgirl. But may I just say that this doesn't sound right. First of all, CITES is not always issued for exotics as a matter of course. H in Japan doesn't. FSH doesn't anymore either. A lot of other brands sell exotic bags and CITES is rarely issued. It cannot be that only H exotics are subjected to strict scrutiny.

More importantly, a bag cannot simply be confiscated at customs. The prosecuting authority must prove that the bag seized contravened local environmental laws against trading in endangered species. To do this there must be actual evidence towards sale, proof that the animal is endangered, and active prosecution in a court of law. Needless to say, even without CITES an exotics owner using her own bag cross border can easily show that a nilo, poro, lizzie or birdie handbag is not from an endangered animal.

Sale, whether import or export, would be a totally different matter.
 
#82
My .02: depends where you go. Customs can seize anything they want. Period.
You can get it back, usually. But it can take time. I know this, have experienced it,
I know the agencies involved in the USA.
I work with them.
Right or wrong. It is a moving target. Like police officers they have a wide bearth.
They can substantiate later, but they have the right to take any action they see fit, within reason.
That is not to say they will take your bag. But to have a receipt or documentation with you is simply
erring in the side of caution and certainly can not hurt. It establishes ownership and will state where
you got the bag and when, should there be possible tax/tariff issues.
 
#83
TammyD said:
Thanks for sharing, nathansgirl. But may I just say that this doesn't sound right. First of all, CITES is not always issued for exotics as a matter of course. H in Japan doesn't. FSH doesn't anymore either. A lot of other brands sell exotic bags and CITES is rarely issued. It cannot be that only H exotics are subjected to strict scrutiny.

More importantly, a bag cannot simply be confiscated at customs. The prosecuting authority must prove that the bag seized contravened local environmental laws against trading in endangered species. To do this there must be actual evidence towards sale, proof that the animal is endangered, and active prosecution in a court of law. Needless to say, even without CITES an exotics owner using her own bag cross border can easily show that a nilo, poro, lizzie or birdie handbag is not from an endangered animal.

Sale, whether import or export, would be a totally different matter.
Click to expand...
I can only go by what I learned from the Hermes SA's that I have spoken with. And because I have spoken with several of them on the matter, I feel confident in the information they provided. I also spoke with two Hermes managers about the issue. Same thing. And as I said, I have gotten a CITES with each exotic I purchased. I can't speak for stores that don't provide it, but I would insist on getting one anyway because I'm not good at keeping up with receipts.

As TankerToad said, they have wide discretion in choosing whether to confiscate your item or not. They won't ALWAYS do it, but again, what is the harm in erring on the side of caution?

And I don't see how it is easy to prove that the exotic skin for your bag does not come from an endangered animal. That involves way more work than just carrying the CITES.
 
#84
nathansgirl1908 said:
I bought my exotics in my country of residence and I got a CITES with them. Not to mention that several Hermes SA's told me to be sure to take it with me when I travel. One of my SA's said a customer's bag got confiscated when she was coming back home from France because she didn't have the CITES. So I don't think it is just about changing residence. In fact when I bought my first exotic, they could not find the CITES. They couldn't stress to me enough that I should NOT leave the country with that bag until they sent me the CITES. Suffice it to say I would think that to be on the safe side, if you travel with an exotic, you should have the CITES with you.
Click to expand...

What you get in that case, is a copy of the Cites permit of importation by Hermes of the skins if you buy the bag in France, or in any EU country, or the Cites permit of importation of the bag, if you buy the bag in any other country.

This states the Cites registration number of the lot of skins wich your bag was made from, or of the bag when it was imported locally by Hermes in the country where you bought it.

You can have this with you when you travel, it shoes that the bag was made of skins actually registered by the french Ctes Buro, or the bag itself was actually registered by your local Cites buro.

It makes a good patch for your peace of mind, I agree. But you do not NEED it in regard to the CITES itself. I agree it could make things easier f you have to discuss your bag with an ignorant custom agent.

nathansgirl1908 said:
I can only go by what I learned from the Hermes SA's that I have spoken with. And because I have spoken with several of them on the matter, I feel confident in the information they provided. I also spoke with two Hermes managers about the issue. Same thing. And as I said, I have gotten a CITES with each exotic I purchased. I can't speak for stores that don't provide it, but I would insist on getting one anyway because I'm not good at keeping up with receipts.

As TankerToad said, they have wide discretion in choosing whether to confiscate your item or not. They won't ALWAYS do it, but again, what is the harm in erring on the side of caution?

And I don't see how it is easy to prove that the exotic skin for your bag does not come from an endangered animal. That involves way more work than just carrying the CITES.
Click to expand...

One does not have to prove such a thing. One only has to prove that the bag they carry has followed the legal route re/Cites, aka was tracked by CITES organisation, from the skins it was made from to the final destination country where final owner lives (You). This is all what Cites is about : Tracking every single specimen that belongs,(dead or alive) to their list, that is actually involved in any kind of international transaction.

Again, travelling with your bag does not make you involved in any transaction.

But again, I agree that one may feel safier with a piece of paper they can show to a custom agent if needed.
 
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#85
I was wondering whether I have been supplied with cites automatically because I buy in the UK or France usually but live in Chanel Islands which is not part of EU.
I have though been told repeatedly by SA's that I need cites to travel (particularly out of EU) so I am now very confused but will travel with cites and receipts just in case.
I am due to collect another exotic in a few weeks so will ask yet again.
I would always err on the side of caution as our airport has a large display cabinet of confiscated exotic objects (bags included)
Some look antique which I thought were exempt .:D
 
#86
I'll take two said:
I was wondering whether I have been supplied with cites automatically because I buy in the UK or France usually but live in Chanel Islands which is not part of EU.
I have though been told repeatedly by SA's that I need cites to travel (particularly out of EU) so I am now very confused but will travel with cites and receipts just in case.
I am due to collect another exotic in a few weeks so will ask yet again.
I would always err on the side of caution as our airport has a large display cabinet of confiscated exotic objects (bags included)
Some look antique which I thought were exempt .:D
Click to expand...


Don't forget the reveal:smile1::yes::heart:
 
#88
I'll take two said:
I was wondering whether I have been supplied with cites automatically because I buy in the UK or France usually but live in Chanel Islands which is not part of EU.
I have though been told repeatedly by SA's that I need cites to travel (particularly out of EU) so I am now very confused but will travel with cites and receipts just in case.
I am due to collect another exotic in a few weeks so will ask yet again.
I would always err on the side of caution as our airport has a large display cabinet of confiscated exotic objects (bags included)
Some look antique which I thought were exempt .:D
Click to expand...

They are exempt when the local Cites buro releases a Certificate of Exemption !
 
#89
There is something I want to add.
It might be always useful to make sure the country you are travelling to will accept the specie your bag is made from.

I clearly remember Porosus was forbidden in the USA untill a few years ago. So even if you got a Porosus bag in france with a Cites permit of exportation, you were not allowed to legally import it in the USA.

This might apply to other species in other countries, and might end in a confiscation.

I think the local Cites buro will inform you, and it might be safer to check if importation and transit go under the same policy in such a case.
 
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