No exemption for EU unless you are a resident of the US leaving the US to live in the EU. You would need a permit to go visit Europe and come back if you are not going to establish residence there. Hence that is why Hermes told me after paying I needed a permit. The manager confirmed even if he didn’t know how to apply for one.
CITES, travel and exotics
- Thread starter Ms Birkin
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I particularly asked about the personal effects exemption and they knew I wasn’t selling anything. Most countries are not exempt, so you need the permit unfortunately. 😢
It is consider an export.
i asked about that, the last gentleman said it applied. That if it was commercial there would be more licenses on top, not only that permit. I explained - I go to these countries often (mainly South America, EU, England) for work and vacation. All three people said I needed permits. I told them it was personal effects and they said it didn’t matter, that I still needed export/import permits. They checked that the species was in Annex II.
I was fined 4,000 dollars once, so now I declare everything. My friend just had all her CITES checked in a very detailed manner in the EU, and her purchases were from there. Even if it rarely happens, it is best to assume one will be stopped.
Yes it’s true that for commercial uses you also need a license on top of the CITES permit (note how it’s a CITES permit) - you said they told you it’s this form right?
Now if you scroll down and find the link to actually go apply - here’s where you go: https://fwsepermits.servicenowservi..._view&sys_id=382577de1b7e50104fa520eae54bcb0b
Which will link you to this page of their FAQ “do I need a permit?”
FWS KB Article
Important Notes: The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS) does not issue hunting and fishing licenses,
fwsepermits.servicenowservices.com
“Please note: if your specimen is only protected under CITES Appendix II or III and you are traveling with or moving your personal belongings, you may meet the requirements of the CITES personal and household effects exemption.
If you already know that your species of interest or your activity do not meet the criteria of the CITES personal and household effects exemption, such as all commercial endeavors, all CITES Appendix-I, ESA, WBCA, MMPA, and MBTA protected species, and species listed as Injurious Wildlife under the Lacey Act, a permit is required.”
It really sounds like the people you were talking to are confused?
Hi, thank you so much, but I don’t think they were confused. I think they know I willYes it’s true that for commercial uses you also need a license on top of the CITES permit (note how it’s a CITES permit) - you said they told you it’s this form right?
Now if you scroll down and find the link to actually go apply - here’s where you go: https://fwsepermits.servicenowservi..._view&sys_id=382577de1b7e50104fa520eae54bcb0b
Which will link you to this page of their FAQ “do I need a permit?”
FWS KB Article
Important Notes: The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS) does not issue hunting and fishing licenses,
“Please note: if your specimen is only protected under CITES Appendix II or III and you are traveling with or moving your personal belongings, you may meet the requirements of the CITES personal and household effects exemption.
If you already know that your species of interest or your activity do not meet the criteria of the CITES personal and household effects exemption, such as all commercial endeavors, all CITES Appendix-I, ESA, WBCA, MMPA, and MBTA protected species, and species listed as Injurious Wildlife under the Lacey Act, a permit is required.”
It really sounds like the people you were talking to are confused?
need permits to the countries I travel to, so I would need an export permit as well. I will call again on Monday and report back. I will also ask for the person’s email to try to get something in writing.
Yes if the country you are traveling to does not recognize the personal exemption then you will need it; you always need both countries. The issue is sometimes the other country’s exemption stance is stricter. Always both need to recognize personal effects.
I could have been lucky with the directions I'm going and the countries I mainly travel to & where I call my residence, but generally speaking the exemptions for personal effects in my travels have been aligned because it's an idea mentioned as a part of CITES itself; namely https://cites.org/eng/disc/text.php#VII part 3 (you can see the USA policies directly call out this part: Article VII(3) of the Treaty - at the very beginning of them outlining the USA's policies)
Because of this, the countries that are part of CITES tend to be similar in recognizing this personal effects exemption (appendix II, quantity limitation placed on croc pieces at 4...). However it is definitely not always the case, as countries can - and some in fact do - choose to not recognize it, not recognize it fully, and / or impose stricter national measures. This may mean that you need a CITES permit, or you don't need a CITES permit but some other permit, or you need CITES and other things on top...and can get complicated, even for personal effects (for commercial I don't think there's been any case where things get exempted and would always require a lot more paperwork).
Sounds like that unfortunately when you are going to a country which does not have personal effects exemptions? In which case yeah maybe easiest to leave your exotics at home to avoid the extra work.
Because of this, the countries that are part of CITES tend to be similar in recognizing this personal effects exemption (appendix II, quantity limitation placed on croc pieces at 4...). However it is definitely not always the case, as countries can - and some in fact do - choose to not recognize it, not recognize it fully, and / or impose stricter national measures. This may mean that you need a CITES permit, or you don't need a CITES permit but some other permit, or you need CITES and other things on top...and can get complicated, even for personal effects (for commercial I don't think there's been any case where things get exempted and would always require a lot more paperwork).
Sounds like that unfortunately when you are going to a country which does not have personal effects exemptions? In which case yeah maybe easiest to leave your exotics at home to avoid the extra work.
Definitely some parts of Europe does; you want to double check not just the EU one but the specific country one (which may also implement it differently just than the EU one even though they signed as EU, if that makes sense?)
I've linked previously the UK exemption - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/cites-imports-and-exports
Here's Ireland - https://www.npws.ie/legislation/cites/exemptions-requirements-cites-permits-and-certificates
Actually for EU as a whole - https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:01997R0338-20230520
is is outlining personal effects exemptions in this document (long, do search for 'personal' to find relevant sections; it's under Section 7 'derogations' meaning exemptions - then 3.Personal and household effects), and in this one: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:02006R0865-20220119#B-34 as it fleshes out those exemptions - check article 57, arcticle 58, which is for personal and household effects that are provided for in Article 7(3) of the first document linked (aka section 7 then 3 like I mentioned), and outlines when those exemptions won't apply and includes things like if your species is Appendex A (sorta like I, although some differences), and you will see specific mentions of not needing a permit, if the items are personal carried with you and "dead worked specimens of Crocodylia spp., excluding meat and hunting trophies, up to four per person;" - which I believe covers your H handbag.
It really does read to me that most of EU, for someone coming in from outside of EU, with personal effects, they are exempt from permits, unless the local country has additional national measures.
I have zero knowledge of South American regulations though, and maybe the countries you are travelling in Europe falls into those additional countries / not in EU with their own rules set, etc. I'm sorry if it's a lot of work to go through all these additional steps; definitely daunting!
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Hi, thank you so much, this is really helpful. Unfortunately Brazil, Chile and Colombia (the ones I searched and called) have no exemptions. Brazil and Colombia have very strict regulations because of the Amazon. Italy is not friendly - the way they interpret the legislation is that if you are an Italian moving back to Italy you can bring as personal effects within a year of establishing residence there (which is a major hassle; you need to file for residence and the police actually comes to your house unannounced within 3 months to make sure you actually live there, and only after certification you would be considered a resident). If you are living outside of Italy just coming in and out, no, you would need permits. Customs there is very strict - just because it is one of my passports (I haven’t lived there in 20 years and wasn’t born or brought up there) they make me prove every time that I don’t live there otherwise they don’t approve my tax free forms bc I go so often. Now that I married one it became worse 😆😆Even if I use my other passports to get in, they still connect them to my Italian passport. A nightmare. So now I come in with bank accounts statements, lease agreements, business cards, print outs of where offices are etc.
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I have a similar situation, but mine is directly from H (Canada). I saw the papers in the ziplock bag, but my SA mentioned the store keeps the original. For travelling, I was advised that I should only need to take a copy of my receipt which shows the export/import code, along with the 'CITE' sticker on the box that indicates the type of croc the item was made of. Is this true? I'm not sure if this will be sufficient for travel to the US or Japan. Debating if I should ask my SA again.
The exemption from CITES for personal effects for the US has already been posted multiple times in this thread. Here is the exemption for Canada:
And here’s the one for Japan:
However note that while you are exempt from CITES for personal effects for Japan (as long as your other country also has the exemption, which as mentioned is true for the US and Canada), you will still need to declare at customs (customs and the government agency for CITES are two different things), which presents other issues (eg cost of item, proving it is your personal used item - which can be separate challenges).
In my personal experience, unless for some reason an SA actually dealt with traveling with CITES species themselves, they won’t (and shouldn’t be expected to tbh) know how exactly the CITES permit exemption for personal effects works for all the countries. Many countries that signed CITES implement these exemptions for personal effects; why? Because it’s actually a category of exemptions mentioned in CITES itself (I cited the part of CITES that mention this somewhere earlier in this thread). However, any country can choose to have stricter national rules and implementations, and some do, in fact, not recognize any personal effect exemptions.
Always research the countries you are traveling to (both of them), find their specific agency that implements CITES and check if they offer the exemption. When in doubt, contact that agency. And if you are like me, when possible, look up the actual legal documents that implement CITES for those countries just to triple check
In conclusion, for your case, none of the three countries would require you to actually have a CITES permit, but be aware that you will need to do customs declarations accordingly if required. The CITES Hermes has is for them to do their commercial transaction (getting the bag from France to Canada in order to sell it, to you), that’s why the CITES is actually just for them. If you ever need to go to a country without CITES exemption for personal effects (big one I know: China), you will need to apply for a new CITES permit for yourself (the one for Hermes is again, theirs, and won’t cover your future use case in that situation).
Finally, I do suggest carrying the CITES copy that H gave you even though you are traveling under the exemption (and make a copy of it too so you have a back up in case an overzealous customs officer ever takes it from you even though they shouldn’t), because it helps to show important info such as which species the bag is, and that it is only an Appendix II species of CITES, which are much more relaxed generally than Appendix I species - some countries do not grant personal effect exemptions for I species, only II.
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Thank you for the detailed response. I only have a sticker on the box with the export number, don't think that's the actual CITES. But yes, I will definitely check with my SA & see if they can provide a copy for my records. Thanks again!The exemption from CITES for personal effects for the US has already been posted multiple times in this thread. Here is the exemption for Canada:
And here’s the one for Japan:
However note that while you are exempt from CITES for personal effects for Japan (as long as your other country also has the exemption, which as mentioned is true for the US and Canada), you will still need to declare at customs (customs and the government agency for CITES are two different things), which presents other issues (eg cost of item, proving it is your personal used item - which can be separate challenges).
In my personal experience, unless for some reason an SA actually dealt with traveling with CITES species themselves, they won’t (and shouldn’t be expected to tbh) know how exactly the CITES exemptions for personal effects works for all the countries! Always research the countries you are traveling to (both of them), find their specific agency that implements CITES and check if they offer the exemption. When in doubt, contact that agency. And if you are like me, when possible, look up the actual legal documents that implement CITES for those countries just to triple check
In conclusion, for your case, none of the three countries would require you to actually have a CITES permit, but be aware that you will need to do customs declarations accordingly if required. The CITES Hermes has is for them to do their commercial transaction (getting the bag from France to Canada in order to sell it, to you), that’s why the CITES is actually just for them. If you ever need to go to a country without CITES exemption for personal effects (big one I know: China), you will need to apply for a new CITES permit for yourself (the one for Hermes is again, theirs, and won’t cover your future use case in that situation).
Finally, I do suggest carrying the CITES copy that H gave you even though you are traveling under the exemption (and make a copy of it too so you have a back up in case an overzealous customs officer ever takes it from you even though they shouldn’t), because it helps to show important info such as which species the bag is, and that it is only an Appendix II species of CITES, which are much more relaxed generally than Appendix I species - some countries do not grant personal effect exemptions for I species, only II.