Chanel’s Rise & STALL: Defects, Difficulties & Deflection (formerly the 19 tote saga thread)

[EpiFanatic]

I came back to catch up and wow did this thread take a sharp left.
As we are already off topic, I’ll again add some context to the logo discussion.
I want to once again clarify my comment about my mom modeling for Chanel. To be clear, 1.) There were no “runways”. Women were posed on individual elevated platforms or they posed as a group and 2.) She modeled for many designers (I’m using the word designer as a person who designs.) Some ”design houses” are still around, some are well known and some aren’t or are gone all together. I wanted to get that out of the way.
There is what my mom called CBK (Chanel before Karl) when the CC logo was on haute couture and on the inside flap of the 2.55 and CAK. When Karl took over after the passing of Coco, he did something that was very smart that expanded Chanel from a true fashion house to an actual brand. First, he removed the CC logo from any haute couture and ONLY put it on RTW as he knew that once that logo was slapped all over everything, those who bought haute couture would no longer buy it and by using it all over pret-a-porter (RTW) it became available to everyone.
in the 80’s somewhere, is when he started using it as the turn lock on bags. The rest is history. Not HERstory (her being Coco). It changed the brand forever. I’d like to believe that it got away from him as the Wertheimer’s greed got the best of him. Also, please keep in mind that Coco sued Pierre Wertheimer to get her company back as he was originally brought in to the perfume business and she felt that he began to exploit her name.
My apologies to the OP for my interjection of OT history.
I’ll close with this, the original Chanel handbag looked more like what we know as the Hermes Kelly before Coco got sick of carrying a handheld bag. The 2.55 was (I know I’m going to likely lambasted for this but facts are facts) based off of the military bags that the SS soldiers carried. Keep in mind the herstory of Coco & the SS.
Also, to OP’s point about Chanel not being a French company, she is correct. The Wertheimers came to the US in the 1940s as they were Jewish & the business holdings are in fact located in the UK.
Thank you for allowing me to interject my completely OT history posts. I just wanted to highlight that the names thrown out in this thread are not fashion houses anymore. They are brands being brilliantly marketed to new money.
Thank you for allowing me to momentarily hijack your thread OP.


Totally OT, I’ve been looking for glasses that shape. Most I’ve found are either Dita or Saint Laurent. Do you mind me asking who makes those? They’re fabulous.


I have no concerns about my privacy here. Most people who have been on here a long time know my name anyway. I use the same @ntntgo on all of my social media. Ironically enough, this is where it started.
However, my mom passed a couple of years ago and I won’t post her personal photos on a public forum. If we’re FB friends or you’re on my IG, I posted some of her modeling photos (not just Chanel) on my personal pages when she passed. They are viewable there and I’m pretty sure there are a handful of OGs in this convo that I am friends with.
My apologies if we are but I’ve been off TPF for years as a regular and have long since forgotten most of the TPF names of people who I became real life friends with.
ETA: My mom never wanted to be known as a model. She wanted to be known as a pioneering hematologist and after she retired, just a mom and wife. She hated when I told people about her modeling. But, it’s not my pride in her modeling for top fashion houses. It’s pride that at 16 years old she went out on her own and worked her way through college & medical school without a dime from her family.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge. I’ve enjoyed reading your posts so much. Your mom sounds like a boss and I am imagining her walking in those private rooms showing those well dressed ladies the latest collections. Did she also have to hold a number?

 

[Tina1010]

Definitely agree!! However I think it might be more obvious on shirts where you can easily check the tag and see what the item is made of (polyester vs cotton vs tencel vs etc) than a CF for instance. To the untrained eye, they all look good, or at least they all did when I started buying! But now I know better. Not saying that their price reflects their quality, but most people would assume it does if they didn’t look into it, you know?

SN: I’m absolutely loving this thread

Of course.. the last time I did this amount of research was when I bought a Canon DSLR to make sure I understood the specs, never doubted it's quality. With a classic bag, I though all I had to worry about was how it looked on me, never thought that the quality expectations from this brand would be an issue.

 

[Model T]

Of course.. the last time I did this amount of research was when I bought a Canon DSLR to make sure I understood the specs, never doubted it's quality. With a classic bag, I though all I had to worry about was how it looked on me, never thought that the quality expectations from this brand would be an issue.

SAME. At the end of the day it’s a business like any other, but they sell it so well.

 

[gail13]

@ntntgo please DM me. As a long time client also, I think you would enjoy attending a private event I am going to.

 

[zaraha]

@ntntgo I found you on IG! I think that’s you!

 

[880]

She would have hated the lowering of status with the logo becoming exponentially available To the masses.

I’m not sure how she would have felt about the logo driven merchandise fueling exponential rise in profit, throughout recent years, and sky rocketing during Covid. I believe she was all about change and innovation. If she were alive today to see the logo bikinis, sweaters, buttons, I think she would wear brunello cuchinelli At least in private

I do love my designers like many of us here. But I don't understand what we are buying into at a time when we think we are paying for hand crafting, luxurious leather, and rare materials, when in fact its anything but.

Most customers who desire the logos , from CFs to coco neige, are choosing the most recognizable status signifiers of the brand. If large groups of their peers buy it, the quality doesn’t have to be high. In fact, it can be reduced to the lowest common denominator of what’s acceptable.

I’ve seen vintage Chanel bags made incredibly well, and I’ve also seen some with cheap interior linings that many of us would never find acceptable today.

In the mid 2000’s, I remember seasonal bags (not lambskin) with sturdy fabric lining, maybe canvas? The bags seemed lighter in weight. The leather was thicker. I thought it was practical.

do think it would be good to know what some of these brands including Chanel do consider a defect.

a defect would not be variation that could be attributed to machine settings adjustments that vary among factories
or a storage defect. What I find curious is that neither chanel nor dior, both fashion houses, nor Hermes, a luxury leather brand, seem to consider an overlapping doubled stitch on a bag edge or corner an issue. IMO it’s a a sloppy way to reinforce or change direction of the machine.

I'm hesitant to return because you never know what might be happening on the next one.

My first reaction is that those who return more than a few times get progressively worse bags. I think their SAs lose patience and honestly chanel corporate would rather not have them as clients. (I’m only expressing what I’ve heard management from various premier brands tell me)

People don't want to feel like they've got the short end of the stick when paying the same price as those who attest to out-of-this-world construction and material

I believe the top tier of chanel clients, camellia et al (I am not one) go to Hermes or a leather house for top quality to wear with their chanel RTW or Couture.

Back in the day when I would have paid more attention, around 2012, I read that newcomers could attain camellia status with a 210K or 250K USD annual spend on clothing or fine jewelry. In todays prices, there wpuld be many ways to attain this, like 10 items of RTW plus a few pieces of jewelry or watches. Or five pieces of HC. but I have no idea what the current cut off is. I’m assuming it’s significantly higher than in 2012.

i have good luck with my bag purchases. From my older purchases, the metallic reissues (yes I’ve had no problems with metallic finish) are the only ones I kept. Reissues look kind of aged and beat up from the start. They look the same. But. I have enough stuff that I purposefully rotate and wear a single item infrequently past it’s first season of use.

she brought it to the boutique to get help, that's when I noticed the leather felt different from the 22 bag I've felt at the boutique but it's already too late.

I would be interested to know what grade of leather chanel buys and what’s the acceptable range of variance within that grade. not sure if that, plus differing machine tolerances for the application of the coating would account for markedly different texture.

The Sa makes the difference.

Of course. To me product is secondary to the ability of an SA to filter and select items that she knows you will love. All of my SAs know my taste and what I already own. It has never occurred to her to push a bag

can't tell the difference between that $80 t-shirt and $800 t-shirt

IMO, the T shirts and knit tops and sweaters (not loose weave monstrosities that bag out on the hanger)
are unusually flattering fit. I may not always like Chanel’s color palette which is geared to caucasians or pale Asians, but these items are still relatively durable and flattering. IMO while the details Of the jackets have remained on brand, the cuts of the jackets changed when KL first lost a zillion pounds. Everyone criticizes VV, but she was KLs right hand person for years. Both VV and KL have made ugly clothes. But KL probably had much more autonomy to write his own ticket and do and spend what he wanted. Who knows what corporate constraints or directives VV has received in terms of cutting costs; target demographic; styles. An algorithym could be saying to manufacturers we need to manufacture faux nostalgia in the target demographic. Dropped shoulders and high waistbands will ensure we’re young and cutting edge

what does all of this have to do with the 19 tote. I believe that Chanel simply sees all bags as money makers. They’re not going to change a winning formula. Even if there are a few dissenters. Chanel can simply point to the vast numbers sold as an indication that they are going down the right path. And I will probably be flamed for voicing this thought that just popped into my head, but the tote style is currently seen as an older woman’s bag. I think if chanel were to lose the occasional older female tote bag shopper, they would reason that they can make it up in the up and coming younger, logo driven client.

 

[Swanky]

what does all of this have to do with the 19 tote. I believe that Chanel simply sees all bags as money makers. They’re not going to change a winning formula. Even if there are a few dissenters. Chanel can simply point to the vast numbers sold as an indication that they are going down the right path.

Agreed!
Even when they make some seasonal items that aren't classic and don't appeal to everyone, they're still succeeding. Over the nearly 20 years I've been buying I've watched buying frenzies of different bags come and go. The nice thing is there's something for everyone, and if not, there's MANY others brands that can offer whatever please you.
I've had some great seasonal items, my PNY, Luxury Ligne and Cotton Club come to mind. When my Cotton Club tote was stolen recently, it was the bronze one and the metallic color was still gorgeously intact, that was a tough loss for me. IIRC @880 it had a fabric lining that was a ribbed and thick satiny fabric that I liked.

 

[880]

Agreed!
Even when they make some seasonal items that aren't classic and don't appeal to everyone, they're still succeeding. Over the nearly 20 years I've been buying I've watched buying frenzies of different bags come and go. The nice thing is there's something for everyone, and if not, there's MANY others brands that can offer whatever please you.
I've had some great seasonal items, my PNY, Luxury Ligne and Cotton Club come to mind. When my Cotton Club tote was stolen recently, it was the bronze one and the metallic color was still gorgeously intact, that was a tough loss for me. IIRC @880 it had a fabric lining that was a ribbed and thick satiny fabric that I liked.

I loved that collection. If I remember correctly, many of those bags were high shoulder carry, which was so practical those days. I am so sorry for all of your losses. Insurance coverage cannot replace older treasures!

 

[waterlily112]

I would be interested to know what grade of leather chanel buys and what’s the acceptable range of variance within that grade. not sure if that, plus differing machine tolerances for the application of the coating would account for markedly different texture.

That's a million dollar question and Chanel will never give us a straight answer...lol the craftmanship of both bags seem comparable to me (as far as I remembered), it was just the texture of the leather that stood out to me right away. The floor model felt almost squishy, my friend's bag felt like PU leather and not the good quality one. I feel so bad because despite my friend doing some research and finally decided on the black one, after hearing some issues with the metallic version and white ones getting stains easily, she bought it because I told her the one I saw at the boutique seems to made of high quality leather. Little did I know...

 

[880]

That's a million dollar question and Chanel will never give us a straight answer...lol the craftmanship of both bags seem comparable to me (as far as I remembered), it was just the texture of the leather that stood out to me right away. The floor model felt almost squishy, my friend's bag felt like PU leather and not the good quality one. I feel so bad because despite my friend doing some research and finally decided on the black one, after hearing some issues with the metallic version and white ones getting stains easily, she bought it because I told her the one I saw at the boutique seems to made of high quality leather. Little did I know...

Someone here said that dyes strongly affect leather feel; I loved the white one and the metallic. I able fortunate in that I am able to try on a lux squishy one in the boutique. I only buy the item I try on IRL. Not some shrink wrapped one in the back.

 

[nsughtnsugahyde]

@880 I agree with everything in that statement except she’d be all about Schiaparelli. The original tweed suit that we still know today was a complete ripoff of Schiaparelli. They feuded but Coco revered her. However, Coco did set on fire. Literally set Elsa Schiaparelli ablaze.

@ntntgo is that correct? Thought I read that somewhere

 

[JamaisAssez]

I believe that Chanel simply sees all bags as money makers.

My completely uneducated, uninformed guestimate ball park would be that Chanel's sales is composed of:

60% handbags
20% fashion (ready-to-wear and shoes)
14% SLGs + costume jewellery
5% watches & fine jewellery
1% high jewellery

Of course this excludes CHANEL Beauty, about which I know nothing.

 

[ntntgo]

@ntntgo I found you on IG! I think that’s you!

If it’s private & a blonde in the PicCollage then that’s me.

 

[TraceySH]

My completely uneducated, uninformed guestimate ball park would be that Chanel's sales is composed of:

60% handbags
20% ready-to-wear
14% SLGs + costume jewellery
5% watches & fine jewellery
1% high jewellery

Of course this excludes CHANEL Beauty, about which I know nothing.

I think that's a pretty good stab at the percentages....I think the cosmetics/ beauty segment more than outweighs ALL of fashion...

 

[ntntgo]

@880 I agree with everything in that statement except she’d be all about Schiaparelli. The original tweed suit that we still know today was a complete ripoff of Schiaparelli. They feuded but Coco revered her. However, Coco did set on fire. Literally set Elsa Schiaparelli ablaze.

@ntntgo is that correct? Thought I read that somewhere

I do know that she loved Schiaperelli but there was a lot of competitiveness but are you asking if she set Elsa, the person on fire or her Altelier?

My completely uneducated, uninformed guestimate ball park would be that Chanel's sales is composed of:

60% handbags
20% ready-to-wear
14% SLGs + costume jewellery
5% watches & fine jewellery
1% high jewellery

Of course this excludes CHANEL Beauty, about which I know nothing.

Are we talking gross revenue or quantity of sales?