Chanel’s Rise & STALL: Defects, Difficulties & Deflection (formerly the 19 tote saga thread)

[ntntgo]

Agree. So glad to see you posting. There are many articles on the issues with pulia, and elsewhere, not only with camps within Italy, but goods transported from Schengen zone countries or Albania and given a mere finish. (Of course I only know this from what I read so would welcome correction lol)

Thanks 880. Good to be back. I’m realizing that I missed you all.

 

[fantajisan]

Chanel will never address and never confirm, because that's just not what they do.

It appears some are, some aren't. (Maybe earlier versions were just coated leather, more recent versions are bonded per several leather experts who Chanel has sent items to for repair, that cannot be repaired). The totes I posted here were "something else" - I knew immediately when I got them. BUT, to your point, I don't think the 19 bags are delicate. Clearly the 19 totes are unusable...

I'm no leather expert lmao, but since I had to steam my 21B light gray 19 to get the wrinkles out, can confirm that it soaks up water (but eventually dries with no marks).

 

[ntntgo]

Interesting.

If most of the leather goods are machine made, are they then partly assembled by hand? When I purchase bags or leather goods, I always look at multiples of the same item. If it’s not possible at one store, I look at the same item at another store, even if I’ve already purchased it. I like to compare how the items are made. I’m the person that’s fascinated by how different each item is assembled.

I notice the bags are never the same. There are so many different details that differ from each piece, from stitching, overall shape, size to length of chain, quilts, etc, that allude to hand craftsmanship. So I’m confused by those referring to most leather goods being machine made. Is the machine used to sew certain pieces and then artisans finish off the bag?

Thank you for allowimg me to clarify. The leather is machine cut and mostly assembly line-like assembled.
Some of the stitching is done by hand by the well underpaid Chinese workers. However, since 2017, more and more are fully machine crafted. The only thing that is currently done by hand is the threading of the leather through the chains, which is likely why so many chains have to be either restrung or completely replaced, and some application of turn locks and other hardware. I’ve had quite a few bags that have had to be restrung or the bags replaced if available.
The reason that you may notice that “bags are never the same” is due to the calibration of the machines. Additionally, they have multipLe shift workers using different machines.
I certainly didn’t come back to TPF to try to change people’s minds. I am simply someone with a long relationship with them that goes back to my mother modeling for them in the ‘50s while in Paris in order to put herself through medical school.
I have never professed to know it all however, I do have a different level of insight into the brand and how it has changed over the years.
I was simply providing factual information and people are welcome to ignore my knowledge base.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I was simply attempting to be helpful.
Lastly, Chanel only uses the term “artisans” in regards to those that work in the Atelier. I think that we need to be careful how we use that term.
Thank you all for your questions and comments. I am happy to entertain any questions or comments posed respectfully as I do the same when I participate in discussions.

 

[Deneuveness]

I have to say, I was surprised to see that when I bought my first Tod's bag, it was stamped with "GENUINE LEATER" on the inside. Now I know why...

 

[880]

Thank you for allowimg me to clarify. The leather is machine cut and mostly assembly line-like assembled.
Some of the stitching is done by hand by the well underpaid Chinese workers. However, since 2017, more and more are fully machine crafted. The only thing that is currently done by hand is the threading of the leather through the chains, which is likely why so many chains have to be either restrung or completely replaced, and some application of turn locks and other hardware. I’ve had quite a few bags that have had to be restrung or the bags replaced if available.
The reason that you may notice that “bags are never the same” is due to the calibration of the machines. Additionally, they have multipLe shift workers using different machines.
I certainly didn’t come back to TPF to try to change people’s minds. I am simply someone with a long relationship with them that goes back to my mother modeling for them in the ‘50s while in Paris in order to put herself through medical school.
I have never professed to know it all however, I do have a different level of insight into the brand and how it has changed over the years.
I was simply providing factual information and people are welcome to ignore my knowledge base.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I was simply attempting to be helpful.
Lastly, Chanel only uses the term “artisans” in regards to those that work in the Atelier. I think that we need to be careful how we use that term.
Thank you all for your questions and comments. I am happy to entertain any questions or comments posed respectfully as I do the same when I participate in discussions.

Thank you so much @ntntgo ! Your info was super clear and informative

 

[papertiger]

And those shared factories in Italy that make all brands of items in the same place - from Vince & Rag & Bone, to Gucci, Chanel, Ferragamo etc. Same leathers. Same workers. Just different brand stamps and prices.

OT, but Gucci bags are made in Gucci factories. Bal and McQueen and lots of other brands are made in Gucci owed factories too, but Gucci's are defiantly made at Gucci. They tan and produce leather for other brands too. This is so Kerring keep all bands in house and the money never moves away from the parent company.

I don't know which factories Chanel bags are made. But from design to manufacture it's a long process. Machine parts, materials and specialists have to found just to produce the samples, new designs often means lots of teething problems but this 19 tote seems (as the title of he thread implies) non-useable, they should be recalled.

 

[waterlily112]

I really don't understand how the leather varies so much in the 19 tote and chanel 22. Some of these bags I've seen have really thick, supple leather that can take a lot of beating, and then here comes really plastic-y, thin 'leather' that rubs off after one or two wears. Where's the consistency and how are they sourcing the materials to construct these bags?

 

[TraceySH]

OT, but Gucci bags are made in Gucci factories. Bal and McQueen and lots of other brands are made in Gucci owed factories too, but Gucci's are defiantly made at Gucci. They tan and produce leather for other brands too. This is so Kerring keep all bands in house and the money never moves away from the parent company.

I don't know which factories Chanel bags are made. But from design to manufacture it's a long process. Machine parts, materials and specialists have to found just to produce the samples, new designs often means lots of teething problems but this 19 tote seems (as the title of he thread implies) non-useable, they should be recalled.

Thank you for that. I knew there was some big thing about shoes, all sorts of shoes being made for all these brands in the same place...maybe it was in the Gucci owned factories?

 

[bagsaremyjam]

As someone here brought up nylon Prada bags which I happen to agree are terrific, they are made from a type of nylon called Econyl; a recycled nylon which is amazing. It is used however on a multitude of products from the Adida line to other non designer items back to Prada. There are multiple articles that discuss it. It is an example of how pricing does not mean better quality. You can find things for a few hundred on up to a few thousand.

We need to recognize as consumers that most of us are willing to pay for the brand name. Luxury items do not promise to be better made or to last any longer than less expensive options. It's all designed to make you feel you are carrying a perceived prestigious item.

At the end of the day we want the cool creation, not some redo of last seasons bag, we want quality products, and we want to know what we are buying. Are we getting leather, some mixture of leather and PVC, coated leather, or something else. I do notice that the bags only imply the type of leather on the website which I never paid attention to until this thread.

I agree and disagree. There can be perceived status in luxury items, but often it’s because luxury items are made with better quality. Is that 100% of the time, definitely not. Quality and price can come into question in regards to things like small accessories, water bottles, shirts, but can bleed into other areas.

With many brands their core products usually showcase why their prices are so high. If you purchase enough and pay attention it’s quite obvious.

Prada may use that brand’s nylon but I believe Prada nylon has a trademark because it has a sheen woven into the fabric that others don’t, which add to the durability and aesthetic. The quality also comes in the construction, leather and the hardware used on their nylon bags. I have Lululemon and ALO nylon waist bags and an Adidas nylon bag long ago, and if you think you can compare their quality to my Prada nylon bags that would be crazy. Even the way Prada’s woven straps are braided distinguish their quality. One of my first bags was a Prada nylon tote and after constant daily use years later it still looked like new.

Is luxury overpriced, especially now? It absolutely is. But no one will convince me that a very well made bag made without a label would rival quality to a Chanel or Hermes. There are other luxury companies that could, sure, like Moynat, etc, but to compare these brands to a contemporary brand is absurd.

I purchase and have purchased items from small businesses with known quality, from clothing to leather goods. None of them have come close to my designer items.

These analogies bother me because people take away from these fashion houses who have been around 100 years or much longer. They have a reputation and heritage for a reason. Even if you have issues with them or they aren’t always producing items without issues, their reputation is for a reason.

If you purchase and use enough items you could see for yourself. There’s many on here who can vouche for this. And not all luxury items can be compared to some of the most popular brands, luxury brands are not on the same tier.

I say this with confidence because I’ve purchased so many leather goods (for me, gifts for friends, family, bf’s in the past, my husband, etc). I’ve purchased things from bigger brands that have great quality per say and will last a long time, but they have never stood up to my Chanel, Hermes, and some of LV, Celine pieces.

Those who constantly downgrade luxury and it’s worth and compare it to contemporary brands imo don’t have enough experience and/or aren’t visual creatures who understand design, quality, etc. To me, it’s comparative to saying your jeweler can perfectly replicate a Cartier JUC bracelet. I have never seen a single replica that looked as good as the real thing. Cartier has perfected that bracelet in quality and design. There are just some things that cannot be replicated. That’s why luxury keeps getting more expensive and people continue to pay for it.

 

[bagsaremyjam]

I really don't understand how the leather varies so much in the 19 tote and chanel 22. Some of these bags I've seen have really thick, supple leather that can take a lot of beating, and then here comes really plastic-y, thin 'leather' that rubs off after one or two wears. Where's the consistency and how are they sourcing the materials to construct these bags?

This is a new issue with the 19 tote and 22 bags that no one has seen. I think they attempted something new and it didn’t work out or something off went down in their factories. I’m surprised the 19 tote hasn’t been pulled from stores as it’s a known issue.

Many people who have regular colored 22 bags love them and rave about the quality, both online and from those I’ve asked in person. It seems like the ones mixed with metallic colors are the ones with peeling issues from what I’ve seen.

In regards to the 19 tote, it’s made from lambskin, which is extremely thin and not the most durable. It seems like the coating was supposed mimi the classic 19 bag (in lamb), which seems to be heavily coated for durability (unlike most Chanel lamb bags that generally have little treatment).

 

[zaraha]

Thank you for allowimg me to clarify. The leather is machine cut and mostly assembly line-like assembled.
Some of the stitching is done by hand by the well underpaid Chinese workers. However, since 2017, more and more are fully machine crafted. The only thing that is currently done by hand is the threading of the leather through the chains, which is likely why so many chains have to be either restrung or completely replaced, and some application of turn locks and other hardware. I’ve had quite a few bags that have had to be restrung or the bags replaced if available.
The reason that you may notice that “bags are never the same” is due to the calibration of the machines. Additionally, they have multipLe shift workers using different machines.
I certainly didn’t come back to TPF to try to change people’s minds. I am simply someone with a long relationship with them that goes back to my mother modeling for them in the ‘50s while in Paris in order to put herself through medical school.
I have never professed to know it all however, I do have a different level of insight into the brand and how it has changed over the years.
I was simply providing factual information and people are welcome to ignore my knowledge base.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I was simply attempting to be helpful.
Lastly, Chanel only uses the term “artisans” in regards to those that work in the Atelier. I think that we need to be careful how we use that term.
Thank you all for your questions and comments. I am happy to entertain any questions or comments posed respectfully as I do the same when I participate in discussions.

@ntntgo I highly respect and value members like you for your input, participation and able to learn more about chanel!
I would love to see those modeling shots of your mom during 50’s (only if it doesn’t compromise your privacy) I’m sure chanel was at different place back in 50’s “Grand Return” and I wish we can travel back in time. But I think we are all honored to have you back on this forum!
Pic captured from book “ Vocabulary of style” chanel salon, Paris July 1962

 

[880]

There’s no comparison. If you feel, touch and examine a contemporary brand vs a designer brand bag there’s a myriad of difference. Initially it will be aesthetics, then will move on to touch and feel, quality of materials, then the hardware, finishing and details. Many cannot see the difference - if a person is not detail oriented or have a passion for design and/or fashion and style, appreciation of craftsmanship, they’re likely buying a bag based on the name, reputation, status, etc, which I feel is a large majority of clients.

I’ve heard people proclaim a TB, Michael Kors, Coach, etc is better quality than a designer brand and I wince at that opinion. Once you’ve purchased at least a dozen bags between contemporary and designer and use both the difference is palpable.

It’s like comparing a banana to a mango - it’s pointless. And hard to describe to someone who hasn’t handled and used plenty of both. Kind of like people who compare Prada nylon to regular nylon. Initially it may seem the same, but when you take a close look and examine, feel and use a regular nylon bag compared to a Prada it’s night and day. If not abused and cared for many designer bags will last decades, if not a lifetime.

Buy AGYNESS SHOULDER BAG Online - Karl Lagerfeld Paris

THE AGYNESS COLLECTION SPEAKS TO THE BRAND'S HERITAGE WITH TIMELESS DETAILS. LUXURIOUS, CLASSIC SHAPES EMBODY REFINED ELEGANCE WITH SIGNATURE LEATHER QUILTING, FLAP CLOSURES, TURN LOCKS, AND CHAIN DETAILS. A RESURGENCE OF BOUCLE IS A MODERN NOD TO THE BRAND'S PRESTIGIOUS PAST.PEBBLE LEATHERFLAP...

www.karllagerfeldparis.com

(Joking of course) but the one with gold charms imbedded amid the quilts is very cute
made of original leather (not sure what that is) in china

 

[gail13]

There is so much info out there about luxury goods and why they are priced as they are. The psychology of it all is very interesting. So little is about quality. Its about the strength of the brand, the image they project and the image people want themselves to have. I have bought into quite a bit of it myself. But as I educate myself and look at some of the things out there now-actually most of it, its like fast fashion. Prices on past collections rising and falling quickly in about a 6 week time frame-I know because I tracked it. It is very seldom that an item retains its value after that.

I do not think most people would buy luxury goods for their quality if the brand name wasn't on it. If the bag or sweater was so well made and the design was great but it did not have a Hermes, Chanel etc name on it but it was one of those brands, it would not sell for half the price. These brands have gotten so rich because we are such good consumers and buy into it all.

 

[TraceySH]

There is so much info out there about luxury goods and why they are priced as they are. The psychology of it all is very interesting. So little is about quality. Its about the strength of the brand, the image they project and the image people want themselves to have. I have bought into quite a bit of it myself. But as I educate myself and look at some of the things out there now-actually most of it, its like fast fashion. Prices on past collections rising and falling quickly in about a 6 week time frame-I know because I tracked it. It is very seldom that an item retains its value after that.

I do not think most people would buy luxury goods for their quality if the brand name wasn't on it. If the bag or sweater was so well made and the design was great but it did not have a Hermes, Chanel etc name on it but it was one of those brands, it would not sell for half the price. These brands have gotten so rich because we are such good consumers and buy into it all.

= why reissues are near worthless on the resale market.....

 

[waterlily112]

This is a new issue with the 19 tote and 22 bags that no one has seen. I think they attempted something new and it didn’t work out or something off went down in their factories. I’m surprised the 19 tote hasn’t been pulled from stores as it’s a known issue.

Many people who have regular colored 22 bags love them and rave about the quality, both online and from those I’ve asked in person. It seems like the ones mixed with metallic colors are the ones with peeling issues from what I’ve seen.

In regards to the 19 tote, it’s made from lambskin, which is extremely thin and not the most durable. It seems like the coating was supposed mimi the classic 19 bag (in lamb), which seems to be heavily coated for durability (unlike most Chanel lamb bags that generally have little treatment).

I've seen the regular colored 22 with issues too. My friend bought one in black a while ago and it started to peel and crack after using it for roughly a week. I saw it in person the leather felt thin and a dry like plastic, the floor model I've once seen felt a lot more substantial, with thicker, softer leather. That's why I'm confused by both of the same style & color bag the leather can be so different.