Were the Le Dix bags faked or not?? Various and speculative opinions

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#46
^ You've got eagle eyes, hmwe46, but I'm not sure if they build them to the stitch as I'm pretty sure these flat brass bags were handmade by Italian leather crafts people so there's more variation in position and straightness (or wonkiness) of the individual pieces construction together. Such as all of the bags have the rivets in a different position on the front leather detail underneath the zipper pocket.

Here's a better shot that compares the two rings on the FBF handles better, maybe longer and more round would have been a better way to contrast the difference between them:

ss02black_vs_fw02olive_rings.jpg

[SS '02 Black First vs. FF '02 Olive First handle rings]

^ Yes, the Olive FBF rivet is silver-toned, all of the brass plating wore off the nickel rivet.
 
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#47
I agree, C - these were handmade, but not in the Hermes way where every stitch is exact - it's like hand-blown (mouth-blown?) glass where every piece is slightly different and the margin of error, beyond which something is considered to be defective, may be quite wide. The fact that a pocket is sewn one way on one bag and another way on another is most likely attributable to Giovanni working on one bag and Bruno working on the other. The handle connectors varied in shape, but I've seen so many photos now of slightly rounder and slightly squarer connectors and still haven't been able to clearly link them to a season. The rivets - it's almost like as long as the rivet actually holds the handle on, it's good - the placement can be pretty imprecise. And again, the workshops were not exclusive to Balenciaga at this point. I don't think it's productive to analyze each stitch/rivet/ring/etc. with a micrometer, as these bags just were not made in that way. Just let them be what they are: artisanal, organic, ephemeral...

(My opinion. YMMV.)
 
#48
Thanks for your input, RDC and LP.

At this point, there are many questions running through my mind with regards to the FBFs with the Pierre Cardin lining.

I mean, these bags were handmade, by fine italian craftsmen. Why is it easier to believe that these craftsmen made a mistake and put Pierre Cardin lining in those FBFs rather than believing that a counterfeiter made that mistake? If those bags were made in workshops not exclusive to a certain brand, wouldn't it be more likely that the artisans working there, would have made sure that they do everything they can to ensure mistakes like this doesn't happen?

I agree that we shouldn't over-analyze everything, but lets look at the WHOLE picture:

1. Presence of Pierre Cardin lining in the bags when it should have been plain black lining.
2. Upside-down buckle on the black fbf (which taken on its own, is a quirk, and maybe even a collector's item like those misprinted stamps or something)
3. Shoddy stitching and raw edges on the pockets.
4. Different 'connectors' or rings, holding the handles to the bag.

I love this forum, and the ladies who contributes so much to the authenticate this thread. However, I put this to you, at what point are we ready to say that a bag CANNOT be authentic based on the information presented?

Taken collectively, surely all the details are setting off alarm bells? Many look to the forum for authenticating help, and information like this needs to be shared, so people can make their own judgments on whether they are willing to pay top dollar for a bag which may or may not be authentic.

Everyone's opinions are their own, and we can debate the authenticity of these FBFs till the cows come home, but so far I know of only one person (manager of Bal LA) who works at Balenciaga who has seen the caramel FBF with PC lining and said it was fake.

We can get into another debate about how SAs doesn't know sh*t, but unfortunately, over here at Bal, we do not really have a paid service like mypoupette to go to with regards to checking authenticity like ppl do with LV.

If we do, can someone please point me in that direction?
 
#49
I was just coming to post a photo to show a wonky rivet on an authentic FBF, but to respond a little to jade - was the manager at Bal LA working for Bal in 2002/2003? If not, I would not give her opinion any more weight than anyone else who has been around the bags in more recent years. Did she do research? Did she know who made the bags back then?

I have also had a bag with an upside down buckle (a 2003 emerald first) and have seen others. Remember, there are craftsmen and there are craftsmen, and these bags were intended to look handmade and vintage, with all the quirks of artisanal production, NOT mass-produced and factory-perfect.

If I'm understanding correctly, the preponderance of opinion is that this bag is authentic. And while my opinion is just one among many, I absolutely believe this bag is authentic. I absolutely believe the other bags that I have seen with upside down buckles and Pierre Cardin linings are authentic.

And here's another variation. On an authentic bag.

rivet.jpg
 
#50
^ I totally agree, J, LouiseyPeasey. You're welcome, D, JadeLeaves ;o)

I definitely agree the situation is bizarre and we'll never know exactly what happened, however here's a scenario that ran through my mind. It's been a long week at the designer leather handbag factory and Bruno should have been wearing his glasses when he picked up a piece of black lining (the PC logo is quite faint) and quickly sewed it inside the bag, riveted on the front buckles with one accidentally upside down, and hastily pinched closed the o-rings so he could finally be done for the day and get home to his family and dinner.

So basically I think people make mistakes and quality assurance doesn't always notice them. Almost every company I've worked for had stories of someone doing something really wrong, sometime it's okay and other times products get recalled for major defects. Plus, back in 2002 Balenciaga "le dix" lariat motorcycle bag production was just a little fish in the bag world making a fraction of the products that they're making today.

Fake bags and real bags both have little imperfections and even big snafus sometimes, but I think the things that are suspect in these Pierre Cardin lined bags aren't big indicators of fake merchandise. It looks more like human error to me. If the lining were leopard print or the hardware were complete wrong then I would definitely say it's fake, but the pictures and description of its feeling in person point to real with human errors.

I definitely agree authentication through pictures alone isn't 100% accurate. The smell and feel of the leather is also indicative of authenticity and that's why RealDealCollection will only authenticate Balenciaga bags in person, but we don't give out certificates or anything as those then could end up with fake bags.

JadeLeaves said:
Thanks for your input, RDC and LP.

At this point, there are many questions running through my mind with regards to the FBFs with the Pierre Cardin lining.

I mean, these bags were handmade, by fine italian craftsmen. Why is it easier to believe that these craftsmen made a mistake and put Pierre Cardin lining in those FBFs rather than believing that a counterfeiter made that mistake? If those bags were made in workshops not exclusive to a certain brand, wouldn't it be more likely that the artisans working there, would have made sure that they do everything they can to ensure mistakes like this doesn't happen?

I agree that we shouldn't over-analyze everything, but lets look at the WHOLE picture:

1. Presence of Pierre Cardin lining in the bags when it should have been plain black lining.
2. Upside-down buckle on the black fbf (which taken on its own, is a quirk, and maybe even a collector's item like those misprinted stamps or something)
3. Shoddy stitching and raw edges on the pockets.
4. Different 'connectors' or rings, holding the handles to the bag.

I love this forum, and the ladies who contributes so much to the authenticate this thread. However, I put this to you, at what point are we ready to say that a bag CANNOT be authentic based on the information presented?

Taken collectively, surely all the details are setting off alarm bells? Many look to the forum for authenticating help, and information like this needs to be shared, so people can make their own judgments on whether they are willing to pay top dollar for a bag which may or may not be authentic.

Everyone's opinions are their own, and we can debate the authenticity of these FBFs till the cows come home, but so far I know of only one person (manager of Bal LA) who works at Balenciaga who has seen the caramel FBF with PC lining and said it was fake.

We can get into another debate about how SAs doesn't know sh*t, but unfortunately, over here at Bal, we do not really have a paid service like mypoupette to go to with regards to checking authenticity like ppl do with LV.

If we do, can someone please point me in that direction?
Click to expand...
 
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#51
LouiseyPeasey said:
I was just coming to post a photo to show a wonky rivet on an authentic FBF, but to respond a little to jade - was the manager at Bal LA working for Bal in 2002/2003? If not, I would not give her opinion any more weight than anyone else who has been around the bags in more recent years. Did she do research? Did she know who made the bags back then?

I have also had a bag with an upside down buckle (a 2003 emerald first) and have seen others. Remember, there are craftsmen and there are craftsmen, and these bags were intended to look handmade and vintage, with all the quirks of artisanal production, NOT mass-produced and factory-perfect.

If I'm understanding correctly, the preponderance of opinion is that this bag is authentic. And while my opinion is just one among many, I absolutely believe this bag is authentic. I absolutely believe the other bags that I have seen with upside down buckles and Pierre Cardin linings are authentic.

And here's another variation. On an authentic bag.
Click to expand...

I bought the bag BECAUSE I kinda liked the upside down buckle, so the buckle did not bother me at all.

I do not know if the manager has been there since 02/03, she's a transfer from Bal NY, and as far as I know she has been around for quite awhile.

With all due respect, LP, you are considered the bal expert in this leg of the woods, and I can see that people would be intimidated enough to not want to jump into a thread and say that they think the FBFs in question are not authentic, and that they will not pay top dollar for a FBF with PC lining. Also, we are always reminded to keep sensitive discussions to PM/offline, which might be why the opinions have so far, been on one side of the fence.

I am no expert, I am just someone who loves Bal and wants to get to the bottom of the mystery. Like LP said, YMMV :smile1:
 
#52
I totally agree with RDC - that scenario is the exact one I'm imagining too!

Jade, nobody is saying you have to pay top dollar for a bag with PC lining in it! I've said before, in any case of authentication, it's ultimately down to what makes you comfortable. You're not comfortable with this one, and you've returned it and been refunded, as far as I understand.

So the fact that I've spoken up means that the opinions posted here are skewed? I hope that's not the case.
 
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#53
So I think a tell-tale indicator would be to AUTHENTICATE the Pierre Cardin lining itself.

If that is fake, then I think that logic would dictate that the rest of the bag is a fake (in MY humble opinion). I can't see FAKE PC lining making it's way into any factory that Balenciaga would be producing bags in.

If the lining is authentic, then it's at least plausible that the bag itself is authentic.

So I did a little research-- and could not find a single match for the PC lining in these two specimens. :nogood:

All the pics of PC lining I found were very different with the writing much more pronounced and not symetrical.

I am no PC expert, but I could not find a single ~2000 to 2002 piece of fabric online that matched these linings.
 
#54
hmwe46 said:
So I think a tell-tale indicator would be to AUTHENTICATE the Pierre Cardin lining itself.

If that is fake, then I think that logic would dictate that the rest of the bag is a fake (in MY humble opinion). I can't see FAKE PC lining making it's way into any factory that Balenciaga would be producing bags in.

If the lining is authentic, then it's at least plausible that the bag itself is authentic.

So I did a little research-- and could not find a single match for the PC lining in these two specimens. :nogood:

All the pics of PC lining I found were very different with the writing much more pronounced and not symetrical.

I am no PC expert, but I could not find a single ~2000 to 2002 piece of fabric online that matched these linings.
Click to expand...

:idea: That is a great idea! We have all been obsessed with the authenticity of the bags and did not think to verify the actual PC lining's authenticity.

Darcie, do you have pics of the lining you came across in your search?
 
#57
#60
Fake or not fake, I don't care. :shrugs:I will say this, I would NOT want a Balenciaga bag with a Pierre Cardin pocket :nogood:and I don't care what the scenario was when it was made. If it was a mistake, to me, it shows extremely shoddy workmanship. Also how do you explain that pocket with PC if you want to later sell it on ebay. There is no definitive answer. Do you offer the potential buyers theories? I don't think they are going to go for theories and what ifs.
The only possible definitive way to find an answer would be to see if Balenciaga corporate could respond of look at the bag.
I don't find it realistic that a counterfeiter would be LESS likely to make a mistake than a skilled craftsman, although either is possible I guess. Bottom line, even if the bag is authentic and one of them messed up and grabbed the wrong material, I personally would not want the bag. It would drive me crazy as would the upside down buckle. I'm not a perfectionist and I buy lots of pre-loved bags with their little flaws and it doesn't bother me. This would!
 
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