WARNING, Paypal just made me lose $20 THOUSAND dollars from a scamming buyer

[AECornell]

Unless you are videotaping yourself at the shipping location and have a notarized letter written and signed by a witness at the shipping location, you're not covered with any of the below things. And the things you're doing might make you feel better, but if someone is going to scam you, they're going to do their best to get away with it, and doing the things below doesn't guarantee that you will be safe.

Also, there really isn't a point of you coming in 74 pages into this thread, with all of the evidence and details that have been posted, and try to say negative things about OP or the situation.

Not starting any battles - but there are ALWAYS other sides to a story.

Regardless, it is very risky to sell an expensive item to someone you don't know - doesn't matter if its a $1,000 item or an $11,000.00 item. I certainly would have made sure the item itself was insured (and I'm not talking about thru USPS because they would only insure for damage during shipping process), would have definitely evaluated whether or not I wanted to sell it to an international member, and taken a videotape of the bag, all of the details of the bag, showing it being packed, wrapped and shipped in one continuous video to show I sent an original bag to the buyer and if something happened - then the buyer is the criminal. When there is that much money at stake I would have done all I could to protect myself. That's all I'm saying - call it a battle or not.

 

[emcosmo1639]

Not starting any battles - but there are ALWAYS other sides to a story.

Regardless, it is very risky to sell an expensive item to someone you don't know - doesn't matter if its a $1,000 item or an $11,000.00 item. I certainly would have made sure the item itself was insured (and I'm not talking about thru USPS because they would only insure for damage during shipping process), would have definitely evaluated whether or not I wanted to sell it to an international member, and taken a videotape of the bag, all of the details of the bag, showing it being packed, wrapped and shipped in one continuous video to show I sent an original bag to the buyer and if something happened - then the buyer is the criminal. When there is that much money at stake I would have done all I could to protect myself. That's all I'm saying - call it a battle or not.

OP has been through a lot and I think many of us here feel very protective over her and what she's gone through. Maybe YOU wouldn't have gone through with the sale, or maybe YOU would have done things differently, but YOU were NOT the one involved in this sale. OP handled this as best she could and in the way she felt protected her adequately. What this case comes down to is that there was a scamming buyer and paypal was negligent--END OF STORY. It does not matter whether YOU would have done things differently, because we are all here now, trying to help OP battle through this. I understand you have your opinions, which you are certainly entitled to, but if you don't have anything constructive to offer, it may be best to just keep them to yourself? (and I mean that in a nice way, not a rude one---just to keep the peace, you know?)

So I hope you don't take this the wrong way, because I honestly do not mean to come across rude or anything like that. I just think that this far along, this many pages in, and this many days (well, months actually) past I really don't think it's the place to start questioning OP's story, kwim?

 

[lalaland!!!]

There are NOT always 3 sides to the story.

Believe me, if there were holes in the OP's story, there are detectives here who would have found it and questioned her. In this case, there are two scammers; the first is the buyer who lied and second is paypal for it's screwup and inability and unwillingness to admit to its error.

 

[BagTools]

terrible ... where can sellers go to? its like PayPal is so convenient until i see this post

 

[ILUVLOUIS2010]

OP has been through a lot and I think many of us here feel very protective over her and what she's gone through. Maybe YOU wouldn't have gone through with the sale, or maybe YOU would have done things differently, but YOU were NOT the one involved in this sale. OP handled this as best she could and in the way she felt protected her adequately. What this case comes down to is that there was a scamming buyer and paypal was negligent--END OF STORY. It does not matter whether YOU would have done things differently, because we are all here now, trying to help OP battle through this. I understand you have your opinions, which you are certainly entitled to, but if you don't have anything constructive to offer, it may be best to just keep them to yourself? (and I mean that in a nice way, not a rude one---just to keep the peace, you know?)

So I hope you don't take this the wrong way, because I honestly do not mean to come across rude or anything like that. I just think that this far along, this many pages in, and this many days (well, months actually) past I really don't think it's the place to start questioning OP's story, kwim?

SO - If I understand you correctly - on a public form and one where we have the right to express our opinions, you are telling me to NOT express my opinions simply because I may not agree with your opinions, or any others, including the OP? Excuse me - but please don't tell me what to write or say.

 

[emcosmo1639]

SO - If I understand you correctly - on a public form and one where we have the right to express our opinions, you are telling me to NOT express my opinions simply because I may not agree with your opinions, or any others, including the OP? Excuse me - but please don't tell me what to write or say.

No, you didn't understand me correctly. I guess I just should have stayed out of it...I should have known this would happen, but my comments were taken entirely the wrong way. I just meant that at this point in time it might not be appropriate to start questioning the OP. And really, does it seem appropriate to start after 1000+ posts, 75 pages and several months? With all the scammers TPF has exposed in the ebay forum do you really think we'd be letting OP slip by? I dunno, I just felt it was inappropriate and after communicating via PM with OP and trying to help her I felt like I wanted to stand up for her a bit...that's all. If you want to keep "expressing your opinions" go ahead, but you're not going to accomplish anything, and at best, you're going to tick a bunch of people off.

 

[ILUVLOUIS2010]

No, you didn't understand me correctly. I guess I just should have stayed out of it...I should have known this would happen, but my comments were taken entirely the wrong way. I just meant that at this point in time it might not be appropriate to start questioning the OP. And really, does it seem appropriate to start after 1000+ posts, 75 pages and several months? With all the scammers TPF has exposed in the ebay forum do you really think we'd be letting OP slip by? I dunno, I just felt it was inappropriate and after communicating via PM with OP and trying to help her I felt like I wanted to stand up for her a bit...that's all. If you want to keep "expressing your opinions" go ahead, but you're not going to accomplish anything, and at best, you're going to tick a bunch of people off.

Thanks - not my intent to tick people off really. If you knew me personally, you would know I'd give the shirt off my back (and do) to help people. But because of my job I have been trained to think of all possibilities and that's all I was doing. I did say I didn't like what happened to her - but I have had issues with PayPal too being scammed myself, and because of that it just doesn't make sense to me what happened. PayPal is usually better than that or I guess maybe I need to realize maybe a while back they were and now they aren't and now they are adopting eBay's attitude that the buyer is always right even if they are the criminals. Too bad.

 

[silkstarh]

Thanks - not my intent to tick people off really. If you knew me personally, you would know I'd give the shirt off my back (and do) to help people. But because of my job I have been trained to think of all possibilities and that's all I was doing. I did say I didn't like what happened to her - but I have had issues with PayPal too being scammed myself, and because of that it just doesn't make sense to me what happened. PayPal is usually better than that or I guess maybe I need to realize maybe a while back they were and now they aren't and now they are adopting eBay's attitude that the buyer is always right even if they are the criminals. Too bad.

That is essentially the point of this entire "warning" thread, and for your own sake, I hope you will take heed. PayPal has sunk to eBay's "don't give a fig about small sellers" attitude, and PP's behavior is increasingly negligent, irresponsible and downright criminal. By their own admission, they will do anything to avoid a chargeback by the buyer, and that includes not investigating fraudulent claims by a buyer, even one who is known to be a repeat scammer. There are multiple recent threads by sellers who were scammed, and PP sided with the buyer without looking at the evidence, although this one is clearly the most egregious, given the large dollar amount.

I think in a case like this, you could have taken all the steps you suggested OP should have done to protect herself, and you would have ended up in the exact same position. She had tons of supporting documentation, and Paypal would not even take a look. That's why many of us are believing she should file a suit against them in small claims court. You're right that this doesn't make any sense, and therein lies the problem.

 

[BeenBurned]

Thanks - not my intent to tick people off really. If you knew me personally, you would know I'd give the shirt off my back (and do) to help people. But because of my job I have been trained to think of all possibilities and that's all I was doing. I did say I didn't like what happened to her - but I have had issues with PayPal too being scammed myself, and because of that it just doesn't make sense to me what happened. PayPal is usually better than that or I guess maybe I need to realize maybe a while back they were and now they aren't and now they are adopting eBay's attitude that the buyer is always right even if they are the criminals. Too bad.

That would have been fine (thinking out the possibilities) had you read the thread 2 months ago (May 7) when the OP posted it. That's what we were all doing back then, but now, 60 days later, we're past that point and are working on figuring out ways for the OP to force Paypal to act more responsibly so this doesn't happen to other victims of the same type of fraud in the future.

 

[Love Of My Life]

this is an absolutely horrific situation for the OP.... she has been through hell...

and this situation has not been resolved..we all can learn from this and all the

info that has been shared has been outstanding as well as informative... I hope that

no one will have to endure this kind of situation ever....and many of us are showing

as much support as we can.. this scammer absolutely knew how to get away with

this for sure and pp didn't even give the OP a chance to show her documentation

..they just overruled her and completely sided with the buyer and accepted an

affadavit from the buyer that the article was destroyed.... this was a SCAM

buy a knowledgeable & professional scammer....pure & simple....PP needs to

re-evaluate certain situations and make more appropriate decisions.... IMO

the person from PP made a poor decision and did not take the interest in finding

out the facts from the seller before the decision was made to tell the buyer

to destroy this item...many of us concur that PP needs to make changes in their

policies...





the policy of ebay/pp

 

[ILUVLOUIS2010]

this is an absolutely horrific situation for the OP.... she has been through hell...

and this situation has not been resolved..we all can learn from this and all the

info that has been shared has been outstanding as well as informative... I hope that

no one will have to endure this kind of situation ever....and many of us are showing

as much support as we can.. this scammer absolutely knew how to get away with

this for sure and pp didn't even give the OP a chance to show her documentation

..they just overruled her and completely sided with the buyer and accepted an

affadavit from the buyer that the article was destroyed.... this was a SCAM

buy a knowledgeable & professional scammer....pure & simple....PP needs to

re-evaluate certain situations and make more appropriate decisions.... IMO

the person from PP made a poor decision and did not take the interest in finding

out the facts from the seller before the decision was made to tell the buyer

to destroy this item...many of us concur that PP needs to make changes in their

policies...





the policy of ebay/pp

I completely agree with what everyone is saying - that PayPal has to re-evaluate their policies. And I'm tired of seeing messages from people saying I'm coming into this late. It is easy to get sidetracked on blogs like this. I did read through pages already and I learned that the OP's buyer was in Canada, and she said she couldn't afford an attorney, or that it would cost her as much as she lost to pursue. She also said her loss is s$20K in total. I don't see what state she lived in though.

I also think some of the "proof" she could obtain would be from the Canadian customs service (if that possible) to get documentation showing the amount they evaluated the bag for. i.e., did they charge the buyer taxes/duty fees etc. on the sale price of the bag? and then after this buyer claimed it was a fake -- did she go back to customs to get a refund (I don't even know if that's possible - but if she didn't maybe that some proof as well about the value and authenticity of the bag that PayPal and/or the credit card company must consider.

What keeps nagging at me though is why she isn't getting an attorney. She says she can't afford it (at least what I saw - and if someone knows differently, then you may nicely tell me instead of sending posts chastizing me for coming in so late). If someone can afford a handbag that costs in excess of $10,000 - why can't they afford an attorney? From what I know about laws for civil theft in some states in this country - the recovery is 3x the amount of the loss, and with interest and everything else she could claim, plus the fact she may be able to include as a damage her own attorney fees -- how can she NOT afford to hire an attorney?

Reading the PayPal protection agreement - the OP can file a claim with the Complaint Assistance Unit - see below. She could also file a lawsuit either in California or Nebraska (see the agreeement for exact counties). The PP agreement also specifically says that an individual making a dispute cannot "double dip" - they can't bring a PayPal and chargeback claim at the same time. Once they do, then PayPal will close the claim, but it doesn't sound as though that's what happened.

The OP said PP didn't ask her for documents - do any of you have any experience where PP didn't? I have had only 2 claims with them, and they did ask for documentation, and it was easy to upload.

My thought to the OP about how to handle it against PP is not from the perspective of a SNAD claim - because their policy is pretty clear about how they treat those - I STRONGLY DISAGREE WITH HOW THEY TREAT THOSE AS SPECIFIED IN THEIR POLICY.

But I think to attack PP on its due diligence in the investigation process and make them show her their hand. They owed her that obligation to exercise due diligence and if they didn't do what she says they didn't do, then it sounds like they did not exercise due diligence.

***************
14.10 State Agencies. In addition to reporting complaints against PayPal directly to PayPal as described above, you may report complaints to the Complaint Assistance Unit of the Division of Consumer Services of the California Department of Consumer Affairs by contacting them in writing at 400 R Street, Sacramento, California 95814, or by telephone at 1-800-952-5210. Florida residents may contact the Florida Department of Financial Services in writing at 200 East Gaines Street, Tallahassee, Florida, 32399, or by telephone at 1-800-342-2762. If you are a California resident, you have a right to receive the information listed in Section 1.6 (Notices to You) by email. To make such a request, send a letter to PayPal at the address listed in Section 1.7 (Notices to PayPal), include your email address, and request the information provided in Section 1.6.
********************

Look guys - stop criticizing me for coming into it late - and I don't think I need to read every post - many of them offer sympathy and not really advice. I was just searching for some facts about what happened to help to figure this out. If I'm duplicating what anyone has said before - then ignore my post now. But I honestly am trying to help.

 

[gsmom]

ILuvLouis, I think you make some really good points. This thread is very long and cumbersome, but doesn't answer many questions or address all the issues, and one can't help but wonder why that is.

 

[Haute Couturess]

WOW HC, that is an awesome letter!!!
Just one question though........it seems as though it is for two different letters? Just send them both separately? One for Paypal and one for Paypal Collections Dept. I presume?

Hi Kristie,

I sent the first one to everyone, then followed up with the second one to everyone, then kept forwarding them both every time I got a nonsensical form response or even a clear response, just one that was saying "no" to me. I also copied the president and ceo of paypal and ebay on every reply I got just to make more of a paper trail. Send everything to everyone and copy everyone just to make it worse for them. Every time. ESPECIALLY their ceo and president. Did you know they put their CEO and president's home address on that website so you can actually send mail or fedex to their home? their home phone number too, although it's probably been changed several times by now.

My claim was "only" for about $1,500.00. It may have been worth it to them to just get rid of me by agreeing to put the funds back into my account. For a $10,000 to $20,000 claim, Kristie, you might have to persevere for another week or two by repeating to send your letters via email and yes, I would recommend sending written letters via registered mail to both their legal department but copy their president and ceo/cfo, whatever, on everything. make a huge paper trail. I'd keep repeating the bits about the people you are going to bring into the process that will start investigating their practices. They can't hide from the paper trail they've created.

I would definitely pursue it for at least another two weeks. Get as much attention as you can and threaten threaten threaten with attorneys and the organizations and you know, you CAN call up your state senator and congressman/woman and ask them for their help. That is what they're paid to do, help their voters. It's in the info from screwpaypal.com. The are a resource for you. There is so much valuable info on that website that it really is worth the time and effort to read every link you can find on there.

Hang in there. I wouldn't let someone steal that kind of money from me. It's just plain wrong. If worst comes to worst, I would indeed hire an attorney if you can afford one, if you after a few months you really aren't getting anywhere with your efforts. You can ask to be reimbursed for your attorneys' fees when you win.

 

[Haute Couturess]

Jesus..........No matter WHO you talk to at PP, they always fall back on their BS "User Agreement." As any attorney will say, just because you agreed to follow their terms and conditions of the UA, does not mean it is GROSS NEGLIGENCE on PP's part in my scenario. Here is the email they literally just sent after I emailed every single person that works there EVERY DAY for over a week............

Dear Ms. XXXXXXXXXX,

My name is Cami and I work for the office of Executive Escalations with
Stephanie. Thank you for the additional opportunity to address your
concerns.

Please understand Ms. XXXXXXX, sometimes issues between customers must
be taken outside of PayPal for further resolution.

It is important that you understand that, whether or not you agree with
the decision regarding the claim in question (XXXXXXXXX),
PayPal provided a decision in complete accordance with the PayPal User
Agreement and the protection programs therein.

When a PayPal customer considers creating a PayPal account and logs on
to the site to create one, PayPal provides for them very detailed terms
of use. They are clearly notified that in order to use the system, they
must abide by those terms of use. Should a customer chose not to, they
are welcome to find an alternate way to process their payments, but if
they chose to take advantage of the system we provide and services
related, they chose to create their account completely aware of the
benefits and limitations of what PayPal offers, including those related
to the protection programs.
The protection programs offer certain remedies under certain conditions,
some of which generously include full credits provided by PayPal just
for following certain requirements related to mitigating risk. We have
been very happy for your patronage over the years and very happy to have
been able to provide service to you, including the additional protection
you have availed yourself of several times over the years since you
chose to be our customer.

I encourage you to re-review the PayPal User Agreement at your earliest
convenience, especially in regard to Section 11, entitled ‘Protection
for Sellers’ and Section 1 regarding 'Our Relationship with You". To
find the Agreement, if you haven't reviewed it in a while, just click on
"Legal Agreements" at the bottom of any PayPal Page.

Another important idea regarding payments received into an account is
bolded and found even before the text separated by sections. It reads
"This is an important document which you must consider carefully when
choosing whether to use the PayPal Services. Please note the following
risks of using the PayPal Services:

Payments received in your Account may be reversed at a later time, for
example, if such a payment is subject to a Chargeback, Reversal, Claim
or is otherwise invalidated. This means that for some of our Sellers,
payments received into their Account may be returned to the sender or
otherwise removed from their Account after they have been paid and/or
delivered any goods or services sold."

The amount of money associated with the buyer claim in question is
substantial. However, the actions taken by PayPal in regard to the
claim were in complete accordance with the User Agreement under which
you have been operating since you created your account in 2006 and which
you availed yourself of previously.

I am sincerely sorry for the trouble you have endured due to the sale of
your handbag. I truly hope you the best in whatever you chose to do
about it. I hope you now understand, in light of the information
Stephanie and I have provided, that PayPal's role in the situation as
your online payment processor was provided in complete accordance with
the terms of use you agreed to abide by upon creating your account. I
am sad to know that, in this instance, we were unable to provide a
solution that was amicable. However, you will need to seek further
resolution outside of PayPal if you feel the need to do so.

If I can be of further service regarding this matter, please feel free
to contact me directly at XXXXXXXXXX. My office hours are variable,
but I am in the office several days a week. Should I be unavailable at
the time of your call, please feel free to leave a message. I will, of
course, return your call when I am back in the office. If, however, you
would like to contact the Executive Escalations Team for further
clarification in my absence, you can contact them by emailing
[email protected] . Be aware, however, though we empathize with
your situation, the answer to your inquiry will not change in regard to
the outcome of the claim.

I apologize for any inconvenience caused with respect to this matter and
appreciate the opportunity to address your concerns.

Sincerely,
Cami
Executive Escalations
PayPal, an eBay Company

I've re-read this a few times and it sounds like they are basically just trying to blow you off in their typical fashion. It's not set in stone. Nothing is, especially in the very beginning stage. Is this the first real response they've sent you? If so, ignore it and keep on with your efforts. Just reply and repeat yourself, reply and repeat yourself, reply and repeat yourself, until you get what you want, being sure to forward your previous communication with your current message, and say that's not good enough. You have a responsibility to stand behind your policies, which stated "ABCXYZ" and I followed them to the letter. Then, you screwed me by doing....such and such." That is illegal, fraud, and I won't rest until you do the right thing and put my money back where it belongs.

That's putting it very simply, but you get the idea. It's tiring, and frustrating, but if the ceo and president sees this in his email box EVERY single day (and perhaps coming from different email addresses or IP addresses so they can't block you? didn't try that myself) then at some point they will have to do something....they will get tired of lifting their finger to delete you.

 

[ILUVLOUIS2010]

Unless you are videotaping yourself at the shipping location and have a notarized letter written and signed by a witness at the shipping location, you're not covered with any of the below things. And the things you're doing might make you feel better, but if someone is going to scam you, they're going to do their best to get away with it, and doing the things below doesn't guarantee that you will be safe.

Also, there really isn't a point of you coming in 74 pages into this thread, with all of the evidence and details that have been posted, and try to say negative things about OP or the situation.

Wrong - all a seller needs to prove is the item they shipped. That's it. Once it left their possession, custody and control, the buyer's problem.