Style Forum member's H experience...

[Mindi B]

Well, if you don't believe his account, then there's no point. His is the only account. It could be completely made up, but it's rather convenient to decide that the parts that work to undermine your theories (and only those parts) must be false.

And of course it's okay that you disagree, but it's the way people disagreed here. And it's simply factual that breast wallet is a widely used, widely understood term. That's hard to disagree with without purposefully remaining ignorant or being disingenuous.

Actually, I don't believe much of what I read on-line, whether the text would tend to undermine my theories, support them, or affect them not at all. Nor did I say that anything "must" be false. I believe my opinion was clearly presented as just that: I used the words, "I think," and "probably" (though "possibly" would have been a better choice). As you are, it appears, concerned with precise terminology, I believe it behooves you to refrain from putting words in my mouth.
A widely-used term "breast wallet" may be, but it is apparently not universally understood. Sometimes, having recourse to synonyms can be useful. And perhaps the OP did so.
Finally, though of course I am appropriately chastened by the suggestion that I may be suffering from ignorance and/or disingenuity (which of those was the sales associate's problem, I wonder), I have decided that additional discussion of this particular component of men's haberdashery is, as poplin so accurately observed, pointless. I do not believe that pursuing the issue further will enhance my life as a disingenue. Therefore, adieu!

 

[tldh]

I think it's time for a big group hug and singing a round of "Kumbaya". Who's in? (This may be too hopelessly American, sorry.)

My conclusions, in no particular order:

• Foo's story was an amusing look at another point of view
• Foo may have inadvertently behaved in a mildly offensive (read: persistent) manner in his search for a - breast wallet? secretary wallet? whatever, I understood immediately from his description what he was looking for
• The Hermes SA he encountered was not knowledgeable enough, poised enough, and/or gracious enough to support the brand
• We experienced a rash of cross-posting between SF and tPF
• It made for entertaining reading for students of human nature
• There seemed to be a growing understanding between the SF and tPF factions
• People who hadn't interacted with each other before had a new opportunity
• Maybe we've met some new friends? Or at least, had the opportunity to articulate the gospel of H.

Season's greetings and best holiday wishes to you all. Thank you for this forum, and the opportunity to observe and participate.

 

[miyake0214]

Welcome Tdh...and thanks to the gracious presence of Icarus and Deus ex Machina.
signed: Helen of Troy

 

[ouija board]

So, if the SA told Foo that she would search for the wallet and contact Foo if she found it, and now she HAS searched for the wallet and contacted Foo...how exactly was she incompetent and ignorant? Sure, she didn't communicate herself as clearly as Foo and most of us would have liked, but at the end of the day, she kept her word and found him the wallet that he asked for. Somehow that detail has been lost in the fray, but I guess that would not make for a very good story

 

[Cranes Store]

Good evening everyone.

I own a few long wallets and I've seen them called a few different names in stores all over the world. Most of the time these names describe an intended use or are a nick name for a particular style of long wallet. In no particular order:

Dress Wallet
Full Size Wallet
Secretary Wallet
Currency Wallet
Credit Card Wallet
Travel Wallet
Yen Wallet
Farmer's Wallet
Breast Wallet
Breast Pocket Wallet
Pocket Folio Wallet

Yeah I know. Everything is about as clear as mud now but the one thing they all have in common is they are a wallet that's meant to be worn in the inner breast pocket of a man's coat. Hence the generic term for these is a breast wallet.

 

[olive519]

So this thread got me thinking, what can I possibly contribute to this expansive and erudite discourse (count how many times "erudite" came up in this thread) that's mildly original?

Someone (icarusdoppelganger maybe?) mentioned the whole celebrity emulation phenomenon with Hermes and to some extent he's right, if we pick and choose our celebrities....Jane Birkin, Grace Kelly, Jackie O, Elle Macpherson, etc are celebrities many admire and want to emulate while Heidi Montag, Kim K, Victoria Beckham are debatable....

And let's not forget the inimitable ABL, who has inspired legions of fans here to raise their hair in solidarity...

Do I salivate just a bit seeing old photos of Jacke O casually toting a Trim or Caroline Bissette Kennedy on the metro with a birkin on the ground, yes
indeed....makes me want to run to Madison ave and buy the first birkin in sight!

So maybe he is just a little right...

 

[jenyi]

I have never heard of this guy, but if his description of his Hermes experience is even remotely accurate (and that I can believe based on my own experiences!), then shame on Hermes. Come on folks - Hermes is running a retail establishment and one should not have to educate oneself before walking in the door! That is the job of the SA!

Most people would ask if it could be "ordered" -what they mean is can it be found in another store or gotten frm Paris. Most would be totally unaware of PO's or SO's and that is fine, folks. The man was trying to buy a wallet, not join an exclusive club!

And no, the uneducated man who just knows he wants an Aston Martin should also be treated courteously and helped with his selection. This is what sales people are paid to do. They are NOT the "admissions committee" - merely sales help and they and their employer should remember this.

ITA. Very well said, India. The SA obviously was incompetent in communicating. I did not read all of the subsequent posts, but just reading the first post, the guy simply wanted to order the wallet in a dark green color. Though almost all of my H experiences were wonderful, I've seen alot of bad service given to unfamiliar customers for no reason. The SA could have just looked up in her computer and check if other stores of it without all the fuss. If not, she could also check if it's in the system for items ordered but not yet delivered. Her repetative "It depends.. I cannot discuss this" response is just unacceptable. I've seen so many lazy SAs and SMs who lie to their customers and it's disheartening. It understandable when a customer is nagging about birkins/kellys or exotic pieces, but when it's just a wallet, I"m sure she could have given him better answers and better service. I've seen a SA lie to a good customer that a certain GM shawl only came in one color and that it was the only one so she must get it. Lots of crap these lazy SAs say.

 

[IcarusDppelgngr]

Get ready for the longest post ever; allow me to mount the pulpit

I just love the way some of the guys (well OK, one in particular) 'come over' and start lecturing us about the luxury market business models, commodities, watches, bespoke and 'how the world really works' as if it's all news to us 'little women'

Especially when 'the man who would be a bird' has theory that falls down from unsubstantiated generalities and burns bright with inaccuracies.

Feel free to point them out at any time.

Allanrvj, thank you for the quote. That's a good book, and it should be read by anyone with an interest in this part of the luxury goods market.

Without getting into the main topic of this thread (which has definitely been an interesting read, if somewhat cringe-inducing at times on both sides), this was a point that should be made, because I am starting to see the quality issue being referenced in other threads, with some inaccuracy.

The comparison to LVMH is timely, if perhaps a bit offensive to Hermes fans, especially considering the news of LVMH acquiring a now-20%+ stake in Hermes, which has been met with quite a lot of dismay and hand-wringing over the whole idea - the thought being that LVMH ownership would destroy Hermes, if not literally, then in pretty much every other way. Hermes is still a family-owned company (about 73% of the shares), and it is run quite differently - they take pride in the production process and in their traditions. Marketing and branding and getting their items into everyone's closet is truly not so much of an issue as it is elsewhere. Materials are not so much sourced (with necessary exceptions such as the Tuareg-produced silver goods) as they are wholly-owned whenever possible (as in the Hermes-owned alligator farm in, I believe, Florida, is it? And of course the purchases of John Lobb, Puiforcat, etc.)

They stand behind their products quite literally forever - the leather craftsman marks each item s/he has made with his/her own stamp, so that the item can be return to that craftsman, if and when necessary, for repairs, whether they be years or decades later. The leather goods can be refurbished and cleaned up or repaired, no matter how old the item or what was done to it (I recently had a part come off my three-year-old Kelly Wallet and it is being repaired for free; restitching and leather cleaning, which needed to be done anyway, will be $100. I expect it will look just about new when I get it back. Oh, and before anyone questions the quality and why it needed the repairs, know that I was really rough with the wallet. )

I just want some of the material quality issues clarified (not service or price or value), as people who are new here may not know that there is indeed a difference. *******f, you do seem to know a lot about this industry, and I welcome your comments, and if you or anyone else here thinks that I have stated something inaccurately then I apologize, I am just working from the best of my knowledge.

Sorry to bust your bubble here, but there is virtually no difference between Hermes being owned by businessman A or businessman B.

There is also virtually no difference between the supply chain of LVMH and Hermes, except that LVMH is deadly efficient. I have been in various production facilities of both companies; this is coming straight from the horse's mouth.

I also think it's hilarious that people think its a sacrilege for for LVMH to own Hermes. As if the Hermes owners do this for fun, and LVMH is a bloodthirsty capitalistic machine. Hermes owners are just as greedy as anyone else. Also, I don't see the advent of family ownership, as none of those family members could even make you a wallet.

Regarding the actual supply chain of Hermes, I'd say it sources 97% of everything it sells from third-party suppliers. The tannery they own in LA you're thinking of is Roggwiller, but they source 90% of their salted and blue crust crocodile skins from independent tanneries in Africa (Namibia, SA, Uganda) and Australia.

The toureg jewelry is just a marketing ploy, relying on some nomadic african tribe for timely deliveries is laughable and goes against all principals of business. Most third party suppliers aren't even reliable. Also, theres nothing good about handmade jewelry, no human can set diamonds as flawlessly as a machine can, and no human made mold can be as perfect as one that machine milled.

The reason they have certain subsidiaries like Roggwiller is to create redundancies in their supply chain

Why, Icky, yes we do. Many of us have gotten together several times. We go to Bergdorfs and meet for lunch. We travel by train to meet like-minded women. Sometimes my DH accompanies me. He loves it when I go to NY to meet my PF friends. Pot lucks, not so much. We have bigger fish to fry. So don't get cocky with us, bro. We are a band of sisters and we mean business.

Aw, that's no fun. I personally love to cook, I only go to restaurants to be waited on, as very few can cook so well that I cannot replicate the recipe. And if we meet, keep DH at home

Okay, anybody who knows anything about Hermes (I know the boys on the other side don't like it when I say "H", they think it's something cultish) knows that an SA would just be confused by asking for pebbled calfskin anything. I also promised not to post anymore on this thread. If Mr. Foo knew the slightest bit about Hermes, he would know that Hermes has tons of leathers, some embossed, some grained, some smoothed, but pebbled? What is that? Would it be clemence or togo? Or epsom? How would the poor SA know, she did not know how to react. Mr. Foo probably did not no anything about what he wanted or he would have asked for the proper name of the leather and the name of the wallet. Perhaps he just wanted to join the Hermes club by purchasing something inexpensive from Hermes just so he could show if off.
Just a thought.

The only thing "H" is vernacular for is Heroin.

My dear, dear Icky, first of all, box calf is not the most expensive non-expensive leather. It is a prized leather that holds up to years and years of use and abuse and can be refurbished by a talented craftsman. One of our beloved members just had a 40-ish year old bag that looked awful brought back to almost new condition. I, myself, had a 40-year-old Kelly refurbished by the same craftsman and it is beautiful. We both purchased the bags online.
You can go to the handbag level of the Madison Ave. store and see this amazingly talented gentleman at work. And his is a labor of love. This is one of the reasons we consider the high prices of Hermes bags worth the price. If you ever examine a bag, a Constance, for example or a Constance wallet (I used this particular model because of it's complexity) The entire piece is made inside out. And then turned right side out and completed. It is a work of art. When you look at the work that goes into such a bag, you get it. When you realize that the bag is amazing in construction. Such is a birkin, kelly or Bolide.
You just can't make a blanket statement and not back it up with fact or experience.

Sorry, but then what is the most expensive non-exotic leather used on Birkins? My definition of exotic is any reptilian, ostrich, or the skin of any other animal that has not been domesticated for at least 100+ years.

Box calf is not praised for it's durability, its very thin and nowhere near as durable as cow hide. Calf if praised for it's suppleness. It's expensive because for the same reason veal is expensive, there less demand for it, and because there is much skin/meat in a calf than a cow, however the gestation cycle is the same.

If you think the construction of any handbag is a work of art, wait until you see mens welted shoes or haute horology, you'll think it's alchemy!

What you know of Hermes is marketing fluff, but it's not your fault, Hermes is just shameless. When some Gucci rep once told me it takes 7 years to train someone to make a balenciaga handbag, I literally spit out my water in his face in laughter (yes I apologized). The inside-out sewing is used for a number of things, and yes it's harder than sewing leather with a sewing machine, but it's a standard skill amongst leather workers. Anyone making cowboy boots in the states or mexico can do it.

 

[IcarusDppelgngr]

PT 2

This thread is one of the most entertaining ever. I’ve gone from chuckling, to rolling my eyes, to furrowing my non-Botoxed brow, back to laughing again. Kudos to the tPF-ers staking out the higher ground in order to keep this discussion from taking itself much too seriously.

I’ll try not to be offended by the insinuation that women purchasing Hermès goods must be doing it with some man’s money. Certainly in North America and many parts of Europe, that is far from the case.
-Yes, yes, it's not his money, it's "our money". Clearly all those women living on the UES/UWS, SoCal mansions, 8th ard. hausmannian or soho garden flats are expert multitaskers, shopping and lunching all day yet still holding down a full time job. Actually I'd wager to say the single largest group of self made businesswomen buying Hermes are from China, not the west.

IcarusDppelgngr, you said in post # that “aspiring professional women” want to buy Hermès to “be like celebrities and wives of wealthy men.“ (Wait—does this mean that there are no professional women, only those aspiring to be?) Dude: Not even close. Possibly we’re dealing with different cultural assumptions here, but I don’t know a single accomplished professional woman who considers celebrities and trophy wives to be role models for fashion, or anything else, for that matter.

- I'm sorry, but when the first sticked posts in the Hermes forum are "celebrities and their hermes" and "socialites with their Hermes", you cannot tell me what you just did with a straight face. Also, please tell me the rack of gossip magazines about celebrities and what theyre wearing sold at every bookstore, newsstand, and supermarket are marketed towards (straight)men and women equally
Many of your 8-point statements in post #57 clearly indicate that you are equally uninformed on the subject of the Hermès company, its policies, employees, and products. Trust a MAN to barge into a conversation and proceed to lecture mode without bothering to listen (and learn) first.

-I'm sorry to sound rude, but what I have forgotten about Hermes and it's operations is far greater than what you know about them. I am not a fanatic or customer of Hermes, I have not purchased one single thing from them myself, though I did receive ties as presents. I do not receive my information about Hermes through it's retail/communications dept employees with their marketing fluff, but through first hand experience. How many of Hermes' production facilities have you visited? How many of their suppliers' operations have you seen? What about training manuals, or internal reports? I rest my case.
Beyond that, ID and mafoofan, it’s both condescending and insulting to believe that women buy certain purses out of social pressure or because some celebrity carries one. That would be like my saying that clearly the only reason men want a Panerai or Patek Philippe is because George Clooney wears one. Actually I believe Clooney wears an Omega, but you take my point.
-Really, it's insulting to you, huh? You're posting in a forum where "celebrities and their hermes" and "socialites and there hermes" are sticked at the very top, so if the shoe fits don't be offended.

About the watch analogy, you are actually correct. Most panerai sales ARE to men who want them because certain famous people wear them. Not that it matters, but it was sly stallone who popularized Panerai, and the sheep followed. Panerai just recently started making their own movements, but before then (and even now, since most watches are like before) they used plain $200 ETA movements and sold their watches for thousands. There are some men that like them for the large, masculine case, just as their are women who like Hermes bags for their elegant and timeless silhouettes (like the birkin). Patek has a history of innovation in their movements, which is apples to oranges with handbags because there isnt much to innovate there, but I actually agree with you that because of Patek's marketing budget, they are largely if not entirely a status watch. Lastly, Omega to Patek is like h+m to Hermes.
(As a more conciliatory aside, ID, I have to hand it to you for the photo of the stunning AL&S movement. One of their Lange 1 models is my grail watch. Fine watches and Hermès bags are not all that different in part of their fundamental appeal –craftsmanship.)

-There is a lot in common with "high-end" watches and good handbags, in that they are not bought for efficiency but a love of the craftmanship as well as status. The fundamental difference is that there is nothing to innovate when it comes to bags, but engineers are constantly designing watch movements.
Okay, rant over. Now I’d better get back to my very different, and more consuming, biological calling. Whatever that is.

By biological calling I meant that because of children women often cannot be the mad scientist in the lab working 18 hours a day. Women usually do not have the option of being a passive parent, thats 9 months + 18+ years of full time work. There is a reason why the Forbes 400 list has only one self made woman on it, and it's not because of intellect.

Of course I know what scotch grain is. I wore scotch grain loafers before your parents were born. What I was saying is, perhaps "the foo" in all of his foof will receive the breast wallet of his dreams. Don't worry for Mr. Foo, for he shall have his perfect wallet. I hope he is able to show us on the PF when he gets it. We love reveals here, guys.
Oh, and look what I just found, a helpful little website:
http://www.stockick.com/news/Hermes-bag-literacy-information

Wait, so you're older than my parents? Are you the oldest tpf poster?

tldh! I'm priding myself on holding my tongue until I read through this very entertaining thread. You've beaten me to the punchline, but I believe IcarusDppelgngr also forgot overhead in his pricing calculations, which I imagine would be quite high in this case. A nice margin on top of that could only be justified if the consumer were willing to pay it. And they aren't just willing to pay, they wait in line to do it! Very successful marketing on their part. Jeez, hearing me say it makes it seem absurd, but Hermes* is my other love after burning fossil fuels to feed my adrenaline needs.

I do think the SA that mafoofan dealt with was unprofessional. After the first paragraph of the dissertation I lost focus (it happens) and I think at that point I would have walked out and taken my business elsewhere. It doesn't matter who you are, her responses were unacceptable.

I do think the guys need to venture over here more often, provided they understand that any sexism or inflammatory comments will be met with accordingly . We like a diverse group of people and opinions, and a good shot of testosterone is always fun (in my world, anyway).

* to clarify I love Hermes because of the quality, durability, cost-per-wear, and the artistry behind the products. Seeing celebritantes carrying Birkins turns me off .

My estimate is not really an estimate, it's an actual cost. If you want to include overhead, then you shall also need to include economies of scale into the calculation. $300 in raw materials is what I would pay; Hermes orders much more, much farther in advance, and pays much less.

Also, about fossil fuels; well, I won't go into detail but I'm working on something that doesn't use them at all...

 

[IcarusDppelgngr]

PT 3

IcarusD remarked that he may some day have a daughter. I am skeptical. He would first need to find a woman whose love for him could compete with his love for himself, which I believe will be a difficult quest. I have rarely had the pleasure of reading posts by someone so intent on convincing his readers (we wealth-marrying, biologically-driven marketing victims) of his erudition and status. On the other hand, ID's incredibly well-chosen screen name suggests some self-awareness, so there may be hope that the impression he has left here is inaccurate. Now let's go back to shallow obsessing, shall we? My biological clock says it's time. And I have to go check in with my Sugar Daddy.

This is why I joined!

I don't think I even used the word erudite on here even once!

You're wrong about something here, namely my love for myself. It's clearly the hatred I have for myself that I then project on women.

To get a little serious for a second, I'm not dating anyone because I have an extremely demanding schedule and I could not subject a woman to such a lack of attention. I've seen too many marriages that were either broken up or remain in tact but are so fake, where people get together on a whim, then proceed to ignore each other. Back in my schooling days, I actually had stalkers, believe it or not. So, my "love for myself" isn't a problem

So this thread got me thinking, what can I possibly contribute to this expansive and erudite discourse (count how many times "erudite" came up in this thread) that's mildly original?

-And they say publishing high school vocab books is a waste of time!

Someone (icarusdoppelganger maybe?) mentioned the whole celebrity emulation phenomenon with Hermes and to some extent he's right, if we pick and choose our celebrities....Jane Birkin, Grace Kelly, Jackie O, Elle Macpherson, etc are celebrities many admire and want to emulate while Heidi Montag, Kim K, Victoria Beckham are debatable....

And let's not forget the inimitable ABL, who has inspired legions of fans here to raise their hair in solidarity...

Do I salivate just a bit seeing old photos of Jacke O casually toting a Trim or Caroline Bissette Kennedy on the metro with a birkin on the ground, yes
indeed....makes me want to run to Madison ave and buy the first birkin in sight!

So maybe he is just a little right...

I've said this a million times already, but the first 2 sticked topics in this forum and "celebrities and their hermes" and "socialites and their hermes". I think I'm more than a little right.


Also, I missed the post in my multi-quoting crusade, but someone was talking about how accomplished some people on here are and that when they "lunch" you would never guess they have 100k in Hermes between them. Ladies, I'm sorry, but you do it to yourselves. What's the male equivalent of that statement? "You would never guess they have 100 patents between them", or "you would never guess they have $20B between them?; or "you would never guess they have 50,000,000SF of class A commerical office space between them"?

As I have already said, those who certain statements do not pertain to do not get offended.

If you ladies want to ask something about the technical or corporate side of your favorite bags or brands, I'd be happy to provide an answer if I know it. Talking about other things gets boring fast, and I rather would like to stick around

 

[_Matt_]

I see the boys are making themselves right at home here....

 

[Vintage Leather]

Sorry, but then what is the most expensive non-exotic leather used on Birkins? My definition of exotic is any reptilian, ostrich, or the skin of any other animal that has not been domesticated for at least 100+ years.

By that definition, ostrich leather is not an exotic. Ostriches have been commercially farmed off and on for 2000 years.
It's just that they've been valued more for feathers than skin until the last half century.


Yes, I'm a geek. Don't ask me why I know that.

 

[Megs]

I see the boys are making themselves right at home here....

Welcome to all the new boys! I, for one, am truly enjoying the discussions

 

[IcarusDppelgngr]

I see the boys are making themselves right at home here....

Why rescind your offer to allow them to use the Foo smiley?

By that definition, ostrich leather is not an exotic. Ostriches have been commercially farmed off and on for 2000 years.
It's just that they've been valued more for feathers than skin until the last half century

If we are to delve into semantics, "commercial farming" of any kind did not exist until the 19/20th centuries.

Ostriches were much more commonly hunted before the past 100 years or so, hence my mention of the animal having had to be domesticated before then to qualify. Hunters rounding them up and keeping them in pens does not equal domestication. Cows, goats, horses, sheep, chickens, pigs are examples of animals that are domesticated and only found in the wild as relatives of the domesticated varieties, i.e., mountain goats and wild boars.

 

[tldh]

PT 2
I'm sorry to sound rude, but what I have forgotten about Hermes and it's operations is far greater than what you know about them. . .

I do not receive my information about Hermes through it's retail/communications dept employees with their marketing fluff, but through first hand experience. . . .

How many of Hermes' production facilities have you visited? How many of their suppliers' operations have you seen? What about training manuals, or internal reports? I rest my case.

Just what case have you made, exactly?

Why do you assume that A) you've forgotten more than I know about the company and its operations; B) I receive my information about Hermes through marketing fluff; and C) I've not visited any suppliers or production facilities? What are you basing that on?