Prince Harry and Meghan Markle thread

[Vlad]

I kindly request that all members participating in the MM and Harry thread dial back the vile rhetoric.

I am not opposed to discussing public personas on TPF, including the constant torrent of news surrounding the couple from this thread. But I find it troubling when their looks are being nitpicked apart to a degree that is just not appropriate.

This thread has drawn criticism over the years, and I discussed it at great length with Megs and the mods. I am not looking to close it down, but the vitriol needs to be dialed back.

My personal feelings about hate threads aside, this ultra-negative vibe is something better suited for other forums, Reddit, or elsewhere. I am holding our community to higher standards.

Thanks for reading.

 

[Babydoll Chanel]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts! As you know I am definitely not an M & H defender. And I don't consider them poster children for any cause. I imagine their fans (or stans) don't see them the way we do. I have learned that what seems like obvious hypocrisy and lies to me may be excused or explained away by others. I don't get it either but sadly it's where we seem to be today.

I think that's what keeps me coming back to this thread...the desire to focus on truth and facts. There are so many aspects to make fun of or criticize M & H for but somehow unsubstantiated rumors and semi outlandish accusations are more fun I guess? In a celebrity thread the consequences are minor, in life I find the lack of even pretending to care about honesty and respect much more upsetting and dangerous.

I was actually thinking about unconscious bias when I read an article today about a recent study that found even wealthy Black women and babies are twice as likely to die as white mothers and their babies in the US. Research has already shown that Black mothers and babies have the worst childbirth outcomes. But this study demonstrates that the disparity impacts Black families no matter what their socioeconomic status. From the article "There is clear evidence that Black patients experience racism in health care settings. In childbirth, mothers are treated differently and given different access to interventions. Black infants are more likely to survive if their doctors are Black. The experience of the tennis star Serena Williams — she had a pulmonary embolism after giving birth, yet said health care professionals did not address it at first — drew attention to how not even the most famous and wealthy Black women escape this pattern."

Unconscious bias workshops are only as good as the trainers and their ability to create a space that allows participants to truly examine themselves and their actions. It is heartbreaking that we can't find a way to really listen to and learn from each other. Sorry for the depressing tone, yet another tragedy on a US school campus has put me in a despairing frame of mind tonight.

excellent post. I agree with you on everything. I'm also not a fan of them or whatever, as I had said earlier, I did even know who she was until 2018ish. Facts are important, instead of demonstrably false, click-baity headlines from the worst of UK tabloids and YouTube - those are opinion pieces, not facts.

 

[xincinsin]

In other words "Harold and MeGain have no new dirt to dish on and they've finally realized no-one is believing their lies". At least that's what I hope it means. I also hope it means they are not going to participate in the Coronation because it's become obvious to them they would not be able to film or record anything and no-one would even be near them, so...

But they are such creative people. They give birth to new dirt on a daily basis.

Indeed.

Daydreaming that this will create a new trend where random women will announce that they also took Sparry's virginity. I'm sure someone took his virginity in many different locations. It's all in the feeling. "I feel like I took Prince Harry's virginity in the alley behind the bar in Argentina. That's my truth!"

 

[QueenofWrapDress]

Good riddance I guess. That said, I wonder about the implication of a vassal refusing to swear allegiance to his monarch.

 

[Starflower2305]

Good riddance I guess. That said, I wonder about the implication of a vassal refusing to swear allegiance to his monarch.

I think the atmosphere will be worse tbh.

 

[Bag peace]

Facts are important, instead of demonstrably false, click-baity headlines from the worst of UK tabloids and YouTube - those are opinion pieces, not facts.

While I agree with you that opinion pieces are muddled with facts in almost all discussions around the couple, I must point out that you've just demonstrated the very point I was making (and that @OriginalBalenciaga was responding to). Namely, you've specified the UK tabloids.
Are we to believe the US press are kinder? The same tabloid press who hounded Britney while she had a mental health crisis and shaved her head? How about the Canadian press who Meg said hounded her when news broke that they were dating? Does racism only exist in the UK then??? because we objectively know that's not true.

Harry is biased against the UK press due to his childhood trauma with his mother but, why is everyone following his lead?
Let's not forget that it was the American Oprah who reported on the "racist royal family", which Harry later walked back saying the British press manipulated the reporting on that interview. Why, when people watched that interview, does anyone just blindly follow Harry in the flawed logic that this is specifically a UK press issue? When did his bias collectively become everyone else's?
The tabloid press are savage everywhere.

 

[DoggieBags]

Good riddance I guess. That said, I wonder about the implication of a vassal refusing to swear allegiance to his monarch.

They were given the cold shoulder at both the Jubilee and the funeral but after the release of H’s ridiculous whinge fest of a book, the treatment they can expect to receive this time would be so frosty that H must be worried about his todger being frozen once again. But you know that if they thought there was enough money to be made, they would go anyway. Maybe they could not get enough material from either the jubilee or the funeral to make it worth their while to return for the coronation? But I’m still having a hard time believing that they’ll voluntarily miss an opportunity to get their faces seen at a major world event since they’ve shown themselves willing to do anything and say anything for publicity in the past. They were booed at the jubilee. Out of respect for the Queen and the solemnity of the occasion, people refrained from booing them at the funeral. I wonder if, out of respect for KC, people would again refrain from booing the grifters if they did have the gall to show up at the coronation.

 

[Bagatha Christie]

Jeez, don't give them ideas with Rihanna in mind... I'm already hearing M's whiny voice telling H she wants to perform at the SuperBowl too to announce a new pregnancy...

I mean she wouldn’t be the first person to lipsync while the dancers do all the work….
She could do a relevant list of top hits:-
Goldigger
Material girl
Private dancer
Out there (I hate you so much right now)
Unholy
Creep
Dumbo

I’d kind of love it and not just because I’d love to see the NFL take the L after the creepy Damar Hamlin PR and honestly cos I’m British and after the last year or 2 it’d be nice to see another country’s big event bite it for a change.

IME, unconscious-bias awareness training when delivered at work is to tick the company/institution's box for HR/P&C's Policy on Diversity and Inclusivity (or similar) 'Steps Taken' check-list. It absolves the company/institution and then can squarely put the weight of any legal (or otherwise) action on the employee (Cert of Training delivered). They will have (at least in the UK) outsourced the training so the company/institution is not liable for the quality of that either.

The unconscious mind doesn't work by "and now you know". Unconscious bias if there is bias that is unconscious. Most people who have guilt in that area will over-compensate when watched and default when not 'on duty'.

Both overcompensating (virtue signalling) and defaulting to bias (Harry's treatment of 'Pat' and Madame X (unnamed 'older woman' at 19 Sasha) in this case highlights Harry's deep rooted misogynist and ableism belief system - not just tendencies. As is the )strongly-held) belief that if you are part of a 'protected class' and oft discriminated against your self you can't hold conscious or unconscious bias yourself. Referring to himself as a 'ginger' is not self-depreciating comment, it's to also excuse himself of all the other vile discriminatory feelings he has against many others.

I have no doubt, that apart from H buying into the shallow puddle of media/SM #stories that only reflect self-serving individuals like the Harrys (and MegZ of this world) no member of the BRF would have ever had to undergo Unconscious Bias Awareness (other titles are available) training even if every other employee at Buck House or enlisted military had to.

100% any training is ‘for thee not for me’ and it is absolutely a way of denying corporate responsibility.

"Mythcarriage"

This is so dark yet so funny.

Happy Valentine’s Day, everyone. Naturally on this day devoted to love, People is shoving their favorite couple down our throats.

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I’d agree about the heart attack part given she’s the jump scare with the Ben Franklin hair.

He may have been subconsciously looking for a Kate.

I think so in part also tbh he’s a shallow guy and blonde was more in fashion in the late 00s-10s whereas brunettes are much more in now. He probably wanted his own kardashian a bit too.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts! As you know I am definitely not an M & H defender. And I don't consider them poster children for any cause. I imagine their fans (or stans) don't see them the way we do. I have learned that what seems like obvious hypocrisy and lies to me may be excused or explained away by others. I don't get it either but sadly it's where we seem to be today.

I think that's what keeps me coming back to this thread...the desire to focus on truth and facts. There are so many aspects to make fun of or criticize M & H for but somehow unsubstantiated rumors and semi outlandish accusations are more fun I guess? In a celebrity thread the consequences are minor, in life I find the lack of even pretending to care about honesty and respect much more upsetting and dangerous.

I was actually thinking about unconscious bias when I read an article today about a recent study that found even wealthy Black women and babies are twice as likely to die as white mothers and their babies in the US. Research has already shown that Black mothers and babies have the worst childbirth outcomes. But this study demonstrates that the disparity impacts Black families no matter what their socioeconomic status. From the article "There is clear evidence that Black patients experience racism in health care settings. In childbirth, mothers are treated differently and given different access to interventions. Black infants are more likely to survive if their doctors are Black. The experience of the tennis star Serena Williams — she had a pulmonary embolism after giving birth, yet said health care professionals did not address it at first — drew attention to how not even the most famous and wealthy Black women escape this pattern."

Unconscious bias workshops are only as good as the trainers and their ability to create a space that allows participants to truly examine themselves and their actions. It is heartbreaking that we can't find a way to really listen to and learn from each other. Sorry for the depressing tone, yet another tragedy on a US school campus has put me in a despairing frame of mind tonight.

Are you saying you find reading the thread upsetting?

While I don’t want to tell you what to do with your time it honestly doesn’t seem worth going through the sheer amount of posts if you don’t enjoy it or getting sad over the media representation of a pair of dumb nepo babies.

 

[pomeline]

Good riddance I guess. That said, I wonder about the implication of a vassal refusing to swear allegiance to his monarch.

It'll be "toxic" alright... Harold would prefer everyone swearing allegiance to him. I cannot believe the antics of narcs, even though I've witnessed one recently myself, unfortunately. They are bold I tell you! And stupid.

I really do hope KCIII is not going to bow down to him and try to get him back with whatever it takes. I think Charles could use some training on personality disorders. He still seems to believe he can get back "a loving son".

 

[Bagatha Christie]

I guess they weren't able to have him cancelled? Not as powerful as they think they are....

I’m not really surprised that there’s a 3rd series. Even when A- was doing their big denouncement I was wondering whether they’d only offered a 2 series deal intiallt and Clarkson was shopping around after it got good ratings. The show is certainly heavily promoted on prime to say they ‘cancelled’ him. Money talks especially with shifty BS artists.

IME, unconscious-bias awareness training when delivered at work is to tick the company/institution's box for HR/P&C's Policy on Diversity and Inclusivity (or similar) 'Steps Taken' check-list. It absolves the company/institution and then can squarely put the weight of any legal (or otherwise) action on the employee (Cert of Training delivered). They will have (at least in the UK) outsourced the training so the company/institution is not liable for the quality of that either.

The unconscious mind doesn't work by "and now you know". Unconscious bias if there is bias that is unconscious. Most people who have guilt in that area will over-compensate when watched and default when not 'on duty'.

Both overcompensating (virtue signalling) and defaulting to bias (Harry's treatment of 'Pat' and Madame X (unnamed 'older woman' at 19 Sasha) in this case highlights Harry's deep rooted misogynist and ableism belief system - not just tendencies. As is the )strongly-held) belief that if you are part of a 'protected class' and oft discriminated against your self you can't hold conscious or unconscious bias yourself. Referring to himself as a 'ginger' is not self-depreciating comment, it's to also excuse himself of all the other vile discriminatory feelings he has against many others.

I have no doubt, that apart from H buying into the shallow puddle of media/SM #stories that only reflect self-serving individuals like the Harrys (and MegZ of this world) no member of the BRF would have ever had to undergo Unconscious Bias Awareness (other titles are available) training even if every other employee at Buck House or enlisted military had to.

I agree, I’d also add for me and many others ginger isn’t a depreciating term it’s a massive plus

Isn’t it so often the way that H and the other woke scolds of the world adopt an almost catholic approach that the more I personally sin the better I am at lecturing others on the universality and severity of sin.

Robin Di Angelo one of the founders of this school even lists how a white person can assess their friendship with a black person by whether they’ve been to their home (among other things) as though there is a black hive mind whose trust can be won through symbolic gestures like training a horse. Weird. It’s a classic case of the old 1 finger pointing forward 4 back.

 

[Chanbal]

I think the atmosphere will be worse tbh.

Are you trying to send them a message in case they read here?

 

[Chanbal]

TW was likely being honest here, for a change.



In her bolog post about the extravagant wedding of Prince William to Kate Middleton in 2011. she wrote: 'Little girls dream of being princesses. I, for one, was all about She-Ra, Princess of Power."

 

[Chanbal]

For those who like to read while having breakfast, here is an interesting article:

Opinion: Meghan Markle and Prince Harry’s utter humiliation

OPINION: The Duke and the Duchess have become something they never imagined.

www.nzherald.co.nz

 

[papertiger]

While I agree with you that opinion pieces are muddled with facts in almost all discussions around the couple, I must point out that you've just demonstrated the very point I was making (and that @OriginalBalenciaga was responding to). Namely, you've specified the UK tabloids.
Are we to believe the US press are kinder? The same tabloid press who hounded Britney while she had a mental health crisis and shaved her head? How about the Canadian press who Meg said hounded her when news broke that they were dating? Does racism only exist in the UK then??? because we objectively know that's not true.

Harry is biased against the UK press due to his childhood trauma with his mother but, why is everyone following his lead?
Let's not forget that it was the American Oprah who reported on the "racist royal family", which Harry later walked back saying the British press manipulated the reporting on that interview. Why, when people watched that interview, does anyone just blindly follow Harry in the flawed logic that this is specifically a UK press issue? When did his bias collectively become everyone else's?
The tabloid press are savage everywhere.

Well, apparently in the US, that Britain (and therefore the British) is more racist and (still) colonialist has traction.

I watched a US influencer comment on the MUA Isamaya Ffrench's excursion to Malawi, and could agree with her on many of the class/race tourism things the influencer was saying about exploitation of 'voluntourism' (often linked to White savourism - a favourite of Harry - why do you think he likes it in Botswana?) and the way the West patronises other cultures (at least among ourselves) I have no idea what they say in rural China or the DRot Congo say about say Scotland and the Scottish). I can promise you that the average history of Scotland for most people is not one of privilege, some Scotts still think Scotland is colonised.

What came as a surprise to me was that the influencer pointedly said not only is Isamaya white, but she's British!!! Like OMG (they are the worst) The way she shared this was 'we all know about the British, right?' smug way.

Emphasis on British. "...a white person (G-d, it's exhausting) a British white person..."






I have a love-hate relationship with celebs virtue signalling myself, and it's true Malawi was colonised by the British (the Portuguese also had interests) late 19C - early 1960s, but the special venom with which British people have been hit with recently, especially by American commentators (ironically IMO considering race relations domestically and 'colonising' the globe with US corporations including media/SM) leads me to believe, H&M are tapping into something I was not aware of OR are responsible for 'our' singling-out as the worst.

I will repeat, within the UK we didn't need slaves here, we had enough working class people in-servce, crofters, tied-labourers, indebted-miners, casual labourers and wage-slaves. It's was only Harry's class that profited wholesale from colonialism in Britain. Don't think those guys spend their (inherited) wealth around.

Harry, the Gettys (oil) or any of the other millionaires and billionaires that and their money from dubious sources only have to give up their wealth and status and then I will believe what they're saying.

 

[OriginalBalenciaga]

Thank you so much for your thoughts. I haven't read the article you linked yet but, I absolutely will. The findings of that study are not surprising to me, since this has been repeatedly found to be true. It's just heartbreaking- as is the news about the school shooting.

What I've learned from the responses you, @papertiger and @jelliedfeels have given is just how shallow my understanding was. It's true that the less you know, the more you think you know. I have much to consider and reconsider.

I don't see H&M or their experiences as a microcosm of society, because even in their hardships, they are operating from a place of privilege that the rest of the world can only dream of. Just in having a platform to speak of their issues, they are ahead of the rest who have to endure discrimination and other forms of suffering in actual silence. That's why I am so put off by their sweeping claims, particularly when it comes to bias. It's also why I'm examining the issue now.
As someone who now faces discrimination on a scale you wouldn't believe (and that has nothing to do with my mixed race), the topic of prejudice means a lot to me. Their misuse of the subject and their playing with the language surrounding it to create a this narrative or that (the racism in Oprah has now been rebranded to something more palatable) hits a nerve. Public discourse around important issues matters, and the manipulation of it is immoral.

At any rate, I'm not adding much to the discussion because I'm driven by emotion and not by information. I can only thank you all again for taking the time to explain your thoughts in such depth. I have already learned a lot but, I need to return to each of your posts and apply some more critical thinking to this (both in the H&M narrative and also how this plays out in my own life).

Lol and totally agree that the less you know the more you think you know...I may have to borrow that from you if that's okay, it's brilliant!

And also absolutely agree M & H are operating from a place of privilege. I guess I was hoping more conversations about discrimination in general could lead to greater understanding and empathy.

I will respectfully disagree about one of your points...I find your posts ALWAYS add to the discussion!

While I agree with you that opinion pieces are muddled with facts in almost all discussions around the couple, I must point out that you've just demonstrated the very point I was making (and that @OriginalBalenciaga was responding to). Namely, you've specified the UK tabloids.
Are we to believe the US press are kinder? The same tabloid press who hounded Britney while she had a mental health crisis and shaved her head? How about the Canadian press who Meg said hounded her when news broke that they were dating? Does racism only exist in the UK then??? because we objectively know that's not true.

Harry is biased against the UK press due to his childhood trauma with his mother but, why is everyone following his lead?
Let's not forget that it was the American Oprah who reported on the "racist royal family", which Harry later walked back saying the British press manipulated the reporting on that interview. Why, when people watched that interview, does anyone just blindly follow Harry in the flawed logic that this is specifically a UK press issue? When did his bias collectively become everyone else's?
The tabloid press are savage everywhere.

I hope it's okay for me to chime in here...I think both can be true. US tabloids are not more kind or fair. It's all clickbait designed to generate revenue. I just think there is a greater interest and focus on M & H "across the pond" because the Royal family is there. Because most links in this thread are from Daily Mail, Lady C etc that tends to be the information that is often commented on and shared.

 

[OriginalBalenciaga]

This is a very long and (I thought) nuanced article about DiAngelo and anti racism training for anyone who has the time and interest...

‘White Fragility’ Is Everywhere. But Does Antiracism Training Work? (Published 2020)

Robin DiAngelo’s best seller is giving white Americans a new way to talk about race. Do those conversations actually serve the cause of equality?

www.nytimes.com