Karl Lagerfeld Didn't Introduce the CC Turn Lock...

[Farkvam]

...or so it may seem from this 1970s photograph, which clearly shows a CC turn lock on the Chanel bag and therefore predates KL's 1983 debut with Chanel. I had originally seen this buried in another thread somewhere on here, but found a better photograph online (below) which shows a little knob in the middle of the CC, denoting a lock.

Also, though most authenticators say that my hybrid style of the 2.55 (see my profile pic) came out in the early 1980s, there is some evidence online that it may have actually debuted in the late 70s as well.

So more than one piece of evidence that KL may not have introduced the CC turn lock as literally everyone says, including respected authenticators... Just thought I'd share, I find it quite interesting. If anyone has any opinions do weigh in!

 

[jellyv]

Can you add the source of the photo?

 

[Farkvam]

Can you add the source of the photo?

I found it on Pinterest, but I finally found the original thread that had the caption "Street style shot by Grey Reginald in the 1970s."

Question: Re-issue chains & Bijoux chains

Chanel history experts! Question: Re-issue chains on vintage classic flaps, lambskin? I've come across these on the pre-loved market and can't figure out the dates. Can an expert explain what appears to be re-issue chains on vintage Chanel Classic Flaps? We all know the Re-issue came out in...

forum.purseblog.com

I'm not saying I know this for sure, but the style of fashion and cars in the photograph would suggest the 1970s or earlier as opposed to the 1980s as well.

Also a nice shot of Coco carrying another version of the 2.55 with a leather interwoven strap...but that was more common knowledge that Karl didn't introduce the leather anyway

 

[axlm]

This is so interesting, thanks for sharing. I'm surprised there isn't more definitive information out there already about this. I agree, that first photo doesn't look like the 80s, more like mid 70s. Do you know where it was taken?

 

[A1aGypsy]

Are you sure it is a turn lock?

 

[yukongolden]

...or so it may seem from this 1970s photograph, which clearly shows a CC turn lock on the Chanel bag and therefore predates KL's 1983 debut with Chanel. I had originally seen this buried in another thread somewhere on here, but found a better photograph online (below) which shows a little knob in the middle of the CC, denoting a lock.

Also, though most authenticators say that my hybrid style of the 2.55 (see my profile pic) came out in the early 1980s, there is some evidence online that it may have actually debuted in the late 70s as well.

So more than one piece of evidence that KL may not have introduced the CC turn lock as literally everyone says, including respected authenticators... Just thought I'd share, I find it quite interesting. If anyone has any opinions do weigh in!
View attachment 5347250

The bag in the pic looks edited, somehow the bag looks new like it was cut and pasted. Wouldn’t the cc logo be bigger and more original unlike it does in the photo. The cc turn lock on the pic and the bag looks like the ones being produced today.

 

[ccbaggirl89]

The way I've always understood it, KL didn't invent the turnlock but he was responsible for putting the turnlock on the classic flaps when they were reintroduced, and basically separating the two styles - reissue vs classic so the elements were no longer hybrid. You'd think Chanel would make their brand history very well-known and available.

 

[Farkvam]

This is so interesting, thanks for sharing. I'm surprised there isn't more definitive information out there already about this. I agree, that first photo doesn't look like the 80s, more like mid 70s. Do you know where it was taken?

I'm not sure where it was taken. I would love to know too!

Are you sure it is a turn lock?

The first version of the photo I saw posted by another member (link in previous post), I couldn't tell and thought maybe it was just a push button, but when I searched for a clearer version of it, this one popped up and there appears to be a little knob in the middle.

The bag in the pic looks edited, somehow the bag looks new like it was cut and pasted. Wouldn’t the cc logo be bigger and more original unlike it does in the photo. The cc turn lock on the pic and the bag looks like the ones being produced today.

I don't find it looks edited at all personally, the bag looks like it's the same appearance as the rest of the photograph, but that is just my take This style with the reissue chain and CC turn lock hasn't been produced for a few decades so it couldn't be a new bag photoshopped in. My bag is almost identical, it's from the 70s or 80s and the size and appearance of the CC in the photo is accurate to mine. I'm a vintage Chanel nerd so I spend a lot of time looking at these styles online Thanks for the input!

 

[Farkvam]

The bag in the pic looks edited, somehow the bag looks new like it was cut and pasted. Wouldn’t the cc logo be bigger and more original unlike it does in the photo. The cc turn lock on the pic and the bag looks like the ones being produced today.

I should clarify, it was likely a new bag back then, when the photo was taken...so maybe that's why it looks new? But yeah, they haven't made this style for a long time so it couldn't be a new bag to us, photoshopped in, if that makes sense.

I'm definitely interested in input though, because I don't mind being proven wrong

 

[papertiger]

...or so it may seem from this 1970s photograph, which clearly shows a CC turn lock on the Chanel bag and therefore predates KL's 1983 debut with Chanel. I had originally seen this buried in another thread somewhere on here, but found a better photograph online (below) which shows a little knob in the middle of the CC, denoting a lock.

Also, though most authenticators say that my hybrid style of the 2.55 (see my profile pic) came out in the early 1980s, there is some evidence online that it may have actually debuted in the late 70s as well.

So more than one piece of evidence that KL may not have introduced the CC turn lock as literally everyone says, including respected authenticators... Just thought I'd share, I find it quite interesting. If anyone has any opinions do weigh in!
View attachment 5347250

So interesting. Thank you so much for this!

I have no doubt KL could found this or another photo of this bag, or the bag caught his eye in the 1970s in Paris. Unlike other designers KL was very observant of things outside his own work (prob working for Chloe at that time). It may have been a novelty in the 1970s and KL brought it back and publicised the hell out if it, perhaps it suited him and the House to credit him. Perhaps he added the leather thread through the chain and hence a new bag design.

The jewellery (earrings) also looks like a foretelling of styles to come, those earrings ware very remnant of 1980s Victoire de Castellane styles who only worked with KL in 1984, but these must have been still Robert Goossens at that time.

I have a bag, a forerunner of the Mademoiselle and a suit from the early 1970s. When the Just Mademoiselle came out in 2011(?) no one talked of its past. No one expects people to be interested in the history of fashion, because fashion has always relied on pretending everything must be bought new and part of the zeitgeist. Mine has leather-woven chain handles, the 2011 one does not. Basically it is still the same bag.

KL hated people thinking he lived in the past, he was phobic about it, prob because he was worried he would end-up like his arch rival YSL, insular and from KL mumbled living off past glories.

I find things don't match-up re Guccis official history and research. I found a suspiciously similar 'Flora' motif used as embroidery on a 1940s bag presented through this forum by a member (who then sold the bag to the Gucci Museum - using it to create new bags without a word about the history). Officially, and more famously, the story was Rudolfo Gucci had the idea for Flora through wanting to present a silk scarf to Grace Kelly in 1966. So much more flattering to a Princess to say it was entirely inspired by her beauty upon meeting her and get the artist Accornero to work on the design. Nothing gets in the way of a good story. Head of Handbags at Chisties partnered with Gucci (they are affiliated through parent company) has recently stated the GG-print came out in late 1960s, when actually it was devised by Paolo Gucci in the mid-60s but who used the luggage print on clothes in 1969 as a PR stunt that went whatever that time's version of 'gone viral'.

Chanel didn't invent the LBD either, women had already wearing LBDs for everything by 1926 - it was a cultural phenomenon and didn't belong to one person, but she did know how to market Chanel/herself. KL did too. We shouldn't be surprised. The quilting didn't come from jockey wear (silks) either as often reported, it came from paddock jackets (very few sources get that right, so glad PB has) she stole the collar type for some jackets from silks though, the tweed from trad. hacking jackets. She took the large bows from the original 'Flapper girls'. And yet she didn't believe in 'costume' Nothing gets in the way of a good (fashion) story, so long as it sells.

 

[Farkvam]

So interesting. Thank you so much for this!

I have no doubt KL could found this or another photo of this bag, or the bag caught his eye in the 1970s in Paris. Unlike other designers KL was very observant of things outside his own work (prob working for Chloe at that time). It may have been a novelty in the 1970s and KL brought it back and publicised the hell out if it, perhaps it suited him and the House to credit him. Perhaps he added the leather thread through the chain and hence a new bag design.

The jewellery (earrings) also looks like a foretelling of styles to come, those earrings ware very remnant of 1980s Victoire de Castellane styles who only worked with KL in 1984, but these must have been still Robert Goossens at that time.

I have a bag, a forerunner of the Mademoiselle and a suit from the early 1970s. When the Just Mademoiselle came out in 2011(?) no one talked of its past. No one expects people to be interested in the history of fashion, because fashion has always relied on pretending everything must be bought new and part of the zeitgeist. Mine has leather-woven chain handles, the 2011 one does not. Basically it is still the same bag.

KL hated people thinking he lived in the past, he was phobic about it, prob because he was worried he would end-up like his arch rival YSL, insular and from KL mumbled living off past glories.

I find things don't match-up re Guccis official history and research. I found a suspiciously similar 'Flora' motif used as embroidery on a 1940s bag presented through this forum by a member (who then sold the bag to the Gucci Museum - using it to create new bags without a word about the history). Officially, and more famously, the story was Rudolfo Gucci had the idea for Flora through wanting to present a silk scarf to Grace Kelly in 1966. So much more flattering to a Princess to say it was entirely inspired by her beauty upon meeting her and get the artist Accornero to work on the design. Nothing gets in the way of a good story. Head of Handbags at Chisties partnered with Gucci (they are affiliated through parent company) has recently stated the GG-print came out in late 1960s, when actually it was devised by Paolo Gucci in the mid-60s but who used the luggage print on clothes in 1969 as a PR stunt that went whatever that time's version of 'gone viral'.

Chanel didn't invent the LBD either, women had already wearing LBDs for everything by 1926 - it was a cultural phenomenon and didn't belong to one person, but she did know how to market Chanel/herself. KL did too. We shouldn't be surprised. The quilting didn't come from jockey wear (silks) either as often reported, it came from paddock jackets (very few sources get that right, so glad PB has) she stole the collar type for some jackets from silks though, the tweed from trad. hacking jackets. She took the large bows from the original 'Flapper girls'. And yet she didn't believe in 'costume' Nothing gets in the way of a good (fashion) story, so long as it sells.

Excellent discussion and anecdotes papertiger, and your summary that "Nothing gets in the way of a good (fashion) story, so long as it sells" is so accurate. I find fashion house timelines do get a bit muddled.

For instance, the leather interwoven chain. I have heard several times that Coco introduced the leather during WWII due to the demand for metals in war-related production. Metal was scarce, so she cut down on the metal in the chain by introducing the leather, so the story goes.

But even if prototypes of the 2.55 were around from as early as the 1920s, so I also hear, the bag didn't officially debut and go into production until February 1955, correct? So they replaced the mademoiselle chain with the leather a decade before it even debuted? That doesn't make sense to me...The earliest I've seen the leather in the chain is from the 1950s photographs, but again, I could be wrong

At any rate, I love fashion history, so it's all fascinating to me.

 

[Farkvam]

Another nice shot of a version of the 2.55 from the 50s, mademoiselle lock with leather strap

 

[bagsaremyjam]

The bag in the pic looks edited, somehow the bag looks new like it was cut and pasted. Wouldn’t the cc logo be bigger and more original unlike it does in the photo. The cc turn lock on the pic and the bag looks like the ones being produced today.

I don’t think it looks edited at all. The CC doesn’t look like an actual turn lock, the way they are know, the knob on the CC appears to be a deign and not functional. Maybe that’s why KL gets all the credit for the CC turn lock.

 

[stylequake]

The CC on the 1970s photo is 100% a turn lock.

 

[ntntgo]

...or so it may seem from this 1970s photograph, which clearly shows a CC turn lock on the Chanel bag and therefore predates KL's 1983 debut with Chanel. I had originally seen this buried in another thread somewhere on here, but found a better photograph online (below) which shows a little knob in the middle of the CC, denoting a lock.

Also, though most authenticators say that my hybrid style of the 2.55 (see my profile pic) came out in the early 1980s, there is some evidence online that it may have actually debuted in the late 70s as well.

So more than one piece of evidence that KL may not have introduced the CC turn lock as literally everyone says, including respected authenticators... Just thought I'd share, I find it quite interesting. If anyone has any opinions do weigh in!
View attachment 5347250

I’m not sure if I misstated in my prior answer about who gifted the CC Turnlock bags but I wanted to correct and clarify.

The picture in question was taken in 1974 for WWD.

That had to have been a bag that Coco customized for a client, as she did to match suits.

I do know that there were some gifted to high profile women in 1983 by Karl. But clearly he was not responsible for creating the CC turn lock.

Between the time of her death in 1971 & the arrival of Karl in 1983, Gaston Berthelot from Dior was hired to oversee the remaining use of Coco’s designs. There were absolutely no new designs of anything until Karl was hired.

The Chanel history between 1971-1983 is a bit murky when it comes to the fashion side as that was the time during which the Wertheimers were fighting to gain complete control of the brand.

I truly feel that this is an excellent thread. I feel like many of us who have inherited or collected for a very long time, are learning that what we thought we knew isn’t quite the whole story. This thread is fascinating.

ETA