Joseph Duclos Thread

[FatFIRE]

Gilded/plated HW:

Even if the wording says 'gilded', which is a legal term, EU law is not harmonious across all member states. The term must comply with the legal definition of the nation/state where the bag is for sale, not where bought. So look for French law not US-wide definitions.


The usual for hw in luxury European maroquinerie is gold/plat/plad plated (Electroplated or PVD). On the JD French site, "du laiton doré ou palladié" which can mean "gilded or palladium-plated brass" in translation, whereas, on the English site "gold or palladium-plated". This shows JD means plated to comply to French law. 'Gilded' must have been used as descriptive word and not as a standard measure, so will not mean gold leaf or flashed. Even the traditional moulu (Ormulu) a technique used for centuries is called 'gilded' in France. Plating can be as little as 0.5 microns in some countries, in France it must be at least 3 microns min. The plating will not only be defined by the term but the micron thickness and quality of the plating (electroplated or PVD) and there is a lot of variation even within the category ('plated') itself.

Please check earlier messages. I am referring to 1. French law 2. French descriptions on JD and H (fr) websites.

JD uses doré (gilded in their EN version) which in France is mandatory for items failing the "thickness" criterion.
H uses plaqué or (gold-plated in their EN version) which in France is only allowed for gold coatings of at least 3nm.

Conclusion: JD gold coating is thinner and inferior to H. Unless you´re a fan of corrosion and oxidation of course.

 

[allanrvj]

I talked to ChatGPT 4.0 about Joseph Duclos. Here's some of it:

Me:
[Tells ChatGPT a brief summary of Joseph Duclos, heritage, their CD being a former Hermès creative, some artisans also coming from H, prices about 75% of Hermès prices] My question is, do you think Duclos is justfied in pricing their bag that way despite being just 2 years in the business and not even having bags mostly hand-stitched?

ChatGPT: (Italics mine)
The scenario of Joseph Duclos, as described, presents a fascinating case study in luxury branding, heritage appropriation, and pricing strategies. The justification for their pricing strategy, despite being a relatively new entrant in the luxury handbag market, can be assessed from several angles:

Heritage and Brand Story​

Joseph Duclos leverages a historical narrative, connecting its brand to an 18th-century leather tanning business. This association with heritage, even if the direct lineage to luxury handbags is only recent, can imbue the brand with a sense of tradition, craftsmanship, and longevity in the minds of consumers. Luxury consumers often value story and history as part of what they are purchasing, which can justify a premium.

Expertise and Craftsmanship​

Having a creative director with experience from Hermès, along with craftsmen who have worked on iconic luxury products, brings an immediate association with high quality and expertise. The use of the same leather suppliers as Hermès, such as Tanneries Haas, further strengthens this perception. Even if the bags are not entirely hand-stitched, the partial hand-stitching in critical areas, combined with the overall quality of materials and design, can validate a higher price point.

Market Positioning​

Pricing the Diane bag at 75% of the cost of a Hermès Kelly might also be a strategic positioning move. It places Joseph Duclos within the luxury segment but offers a slightly more accessible price point, which could appeal to consumers who aspire to own a product with similar cachet and quality to Hermès but at a lower cost. This strategy could attract a specific customer segment that values the craftsmanship and design associated with Hermès but is also sensitive to price.

Consumer Perception​

In the luxury market, the price is often seen as an indicator of quality, exclusivity, and prestige. By pricing their products in the high-end range, Joseph Duclos is signaling that their bags are comparable in quality and exclusivity to established luxury brands. The willingness of consumers to pay such prices will depend on how well the brand manages to convey its value proposition through marketing, product quality, and customer experience.

Branding and Exclusivity​

The location of their store near Hermès HQ and the story they tell about their heritage contribute to creating an aura of exclusivity and luxury. The brand seems to be positioning itself as an exclusive alternative to Hermès, leveraging its proximity to the legendary brand to draw in customers who are looking for luxury handbags with a rich story and high-quality craftsmanship.

In conclusion, the justification for Joseph Duclos's pricing strategy lies in a combination of its heritage narrative, expertise derived from industry veterans, strategic market positioning, and the luxury consumer's perception of value. The success of this strategy will largely depend on the brand's ability to maintain high standards of quality, effectively communicate its unique value proposition, and foster a desirable brand image that resonates with luxury consumers.

 

[allanrvj]

Me:
I guess they are also taking a gamble, right? Because what if customers get turned off by the price, knowing that they’re essentially just a startup.

ChatGPT:
Absolutely, it's a gamble. Pricing strategies, especially in the luxury sector, involve a delicate balance. A new brand like Joseph Duclos setting high prices risks alienating potential customers who might be skeptical about the value and heritage of a relatively unknown entity. There are several factors at play:

Customer Perception​

If customers do not perceive the value—be it in the brand's heritage, craftsmanship, or exclusivity—to match the high price, they may be reluctant to invest in the brand. The narrative around the brand's history and the expertise behind it needs to be compelling enough to justify the cost in the eyes of consumers.

Brand Trust and Loyalty​

Established luxury brands like Hermès have built up decades (or even centuries) of trust and loyalty with their customer base. A newcomer lacks this historical relationship, which can make high prices seem presumptuous to potential buyers without a strong, immediate demonstration of value.

Market Positioning​

While positioning close to the pricing of established brands can lend an air of luxury and exclusivity, it also places the newcomer in direct comparison with those brands. If consumers do not see a clear reason to choose the newer brand over the established one—whether due to design, quality, service, or brand prestige—the strategy may backfire.

Competitive Response​

There's also the risk of how competitors might respond. Established brands could see a newcomer's high pricing as a challenge and might respond with marketing strategies that reinforce their own value propositions, making it harder for the new brand to gain a foothold.

Economic Factors​

Economic conditions can also affect how consumers perceive high-priced items. In uncertain economic times, even luxury consumers may become more discerning about where they invest their money, favoring established brands with proven resale value or investment potential.

Despite these risks, high pricing can also work as a strategic bet on differentiation and creating a buzz. If Joseph Duclos can effectively communicate its unique selling propositions—be it heritage, craftsmanship, or an exclusive consumer experience—it might well carve out a niche among luxury consumers looking for something new yet rooted in a narrative of tradition and quality. Success in luxury branding often comes down to storytelling and the emotional resonance of the brand as much as to the inherent quality of the products. Achieving this balance is challenging but not impossible, and doing so can yield significant rewards.

 

[Loganz]

@allanrvj - fascinating and also spot on in many regards.

 

[Dann2510]

Please check earlier messages. I am referring to 1. French law 2. French descriptions on JD and H (fr) websites.

JD uses doré (gilded in their EN version) which in France is mandatory for items failing the "thickness" criterion.
H uses plaqué or (gold-plated in their EN version) which in France is only allowed for gold coatings of at least 3nm.

Conclusion: JD gold coating is thinner and inferior to H. Unless you´re a fan of corrosion and oxidation of course.

Please check earlier messages. I am referring to 1. French law 2. French descriptions on JD and H (fr) websites.

JD uses doré (gilded in their EN version) which in France is mandatory for items failing the "thickness" criterion.
H uses plaqué or (gold-plated in their EN version) which in France is only allowed for gold coatings of at least 3nm.

Conclusion: JD gold coating is thinner and inferior to H. Unless you´re a fan of corrosion and oxidation of course.

If you are such a fan of Hermes, why not just stick to the brand and let other have fun with their bag ? I haven’t heard any complaints about JD’s hardware and it’s weird to me that you mostly dedicated your account just to comment on this channel …

 

[Mousy]

I talked to ChatGPT 4.0 about Joseph Duclos. Here's some of it:

Me:
[Tells ChatGPT a brief summary of Joseph Duclos, heritage, their CD being a former Hermès creative, some artisans also coming from H, prices about 75% of Hermès prices] My question is, do you think Duclos is justfied in pricing their bag that way despite being just 2 years in the business and not even having bags mostly hand-stitched?

ChatGPT: (Italics mine)
The scenario of Joseph Duclos, as described, presents a fascinating case study in luxury branding, heritage appropriation, and pricing strategies. The justification for their pricing strategy, despite being a relatively new entrant in the luxury handbag market, can be assessed from several angles:

Heritage and Brand Story​

Joseph Duclos leverages a historical narrative, connecting its brand to an 18th-century leather tanning business. This association with heritage, even if the direct lineage to luxury handbags is only recent, can imbue the brand with a sense of tradition, craftsmanship, and longevity in the minds of consumers. Luxury consumers often value story and history as part of what they are purchasing, which can justify a premium.

Expertise and Craftsmanship​

Having a creative director with experience from Hermès, along with craftsmen who have worked on iconic luxury products, brings an immediate association with high quality and expertise. The use of the same leather suppliers as Hermès, such as Tanneries Haas, further strengthens this perception. Even if the bags are not entirely hand-stitched, the partial hand-stitching in critical areas, combined with the overall quality of materials and design, can validate a higher price point.

Market Positioning​

Pricing the Diane bag at 75% of the cost of a Hermès Kelly might also be a strategic positioning move. It places Joseph Duclos within the luxury segment but offers a slightly more accessible price point, which could appeal to consumers who aspire to own a product with similar cachet and quality to Hermès but at a lower cost. This strategy could attract a specific customer segment that values the craftsmanship and design associated with Hermès but is also sensitive to price.

Consumer Perception​

In the luxury market, the price is often seen as an indicator of quality, exclusivity, and prestige. By pricing their products in the high-end range, Joseph Duclos is signaling that their bags are comparable in quality and exclusivity to established luxury brands. The willingness of consumers to pay such prices will depend on how well the brand manages to convey its value proposition through marketing, product quality, and customer experience.

Branding and Exclusivity​

The location of their store near Hermès HQ and the story they tell about their heritage contribute to creating an aura of exclusivity and luxury. The brand seems to be positioning itself as an exclusive alternative to Hermès, leveraging its proximity to the legendary brand to draw in customers who are looking for luxury handbags with a rich story and high-quality craftsmanship.

In conclusion, the justification for Joseph Duclos's pricing strategy lies in a combination of its heritage narrative, expertise derived from industry veterans, strategic market positioning, and the luxury consumer's perception of value. The success of this strategy will largely depend on the brand's ability to maintain high standards of quality, effectively communicate its unique value proposition, and foster a desirable brand image that resonates with luxury consumers.

Me:
I guess they are also taking a gamble, right? Because what if customers get turned off by the price, knowing that they’re essentially just a startup.

ChatGPT:
Absolutely, it's a gamble. Pricing strategies, especially in the luxury sector, involve a delicate balance. A new brand like Joseph Duclos setting high prices risks alienating potential customers who might be skeptical about the value and heritage of a relatively unknown entity. There are several factors at play:

Customer Perception​

If customers do not perceive the value—be it in the brand's heritage, craftsmanship, or exclusivity—to match the high price, they may be reluctant to invest in the brand. The narrative around the brand's history and the expertise behind it needs to be compelling enough to justify the cost in the eyes of consumers.

Brand Trust and Loyalty​

Established luxury brands like Hermès have built up decades (or even centuries) of trust and loyalty with their customer base. A newcomer lacks this historical relationship, which can make high prices seem presumptuous to potential buyers without a strong, immediate demonstration of value.

Market Positioning​

While positioning close to the pricing of established brands can lend an air of luxury and exclusivity, it also places the newcomer in direct comparison with those brands. If consumers do not see a clear reason to choose the newer brand over the established one—whether due to design, quality, service, or brand prestige—the strategy may backfire.

Competitive Response​

There's also the risk of how competitors might respond. Established brands could see a newcomer's high pricing as a challenge and might respond with marketing strategies that reinforce their own value propositions, making it harder for the new brand to gain a foothold.

Economic Factors​

Economic conditions can also affect how consumers perceive high-priced items. In uncertain economic times, even luxury consumers may become more discerning about where they invest their money, favoring established brands with proven resale value or investment potential.

Despite these risks, high pricing can also work as a strategic bet on differentiation and creating a buzz. If Joseph Duclos can effectively communicate its unique selling propositions—be it heritage, craftsmanship, or an exclusive consumer experience—it might well carve out a niche among luxury consumers looking for something new yet rooted in a narrative of tradition and quality. Success in luxury branding often comes down to storytelling and the emotional resonance of the brand as much as to the inherent quality of the products. Achieving this balance is challenging but not impossible, and doing so can yield significant rewards.

One thing I appreciate about JD is their willingness to produce (relatively) less expensive bags for clients who don’t have the ability or appetite to spend H level amounts of money. JD totes and non-Diane bags are less than comparable H leather bags.

 

[papertiger]

Me:
I guess they are also taking a gamble, right? Because what if customers get turned off by the price, knowing that they’re essentially just a startup.

ChatGPT:
Absolutely, it's a gamble. Pricing strategies, especially in the luxury sector, involve a delicate balance. A new brand like Joseph Duclos setting high prices risks alienating potential customers who might be skeptical about the value and heritage of a relatively unknown entity. There are several factors at play:

Customer Perception​

If customers do not perceive the value—be it in the brand's heritage, craftsmanship, or exclusivity—to match the high price, they may be reluctant to invest in the brand. The narrative around the brand's history and the expertise behind it needs to be compelling enough to justify the cost in the eyes of consumers.

Brand Trust and Loyalty​

Established luxury brands like Hermès have built up decades (or even centuries) of trust and loyalty with their customer base. A newcomer lacks this historical relationship, which can make high prices seem presumptuous to potential buyers without a strong, immediate demonstration of value.

Market Positioning​

While positioning close to the pricing of established brands can lend an air of luxury and exclusivity, it also places the newcomer in direct comparison with those brands. If consumers do not see a clear reason to choose the newer brand over the established one—whether due to design, quality, service, or brand prestige—the strategy may backfire.

Competitive Response​

There's also the risk of how competitors might respond. Established brands could see a newcomer's high pricing as a challenge and might respond with marketing strategies that reinforce their own value propositions, making it harder for the new brand to gain a foothold.

Economic Factors​

Economic conditions can also affect how consumers perceive high-priced items. In uncertain economic times, even luxury consumers may become more discerning about where they invest their money, favoring established brands with proven resale value or investment potential.

Despite these risks, high pricing can also work as a strategic bet on differentiation and creating a buzz. If Joseph Duclos can effectively communicate its unique selling propositions—be it heritage, craftsmanship, or an exclusive consumer experience—it might well carve out a niche among luxury consumers looking for something new yet rooted in a narrative of tradition and quality. Success in luxury branding often comes down to storytelling and the emotional resonance of the brand as much as to the inherent quality of the products. Achieving this balance is challenging but not impossible, and doing so can yield significant rewards.

I talked to ChatGPT 4.0 about Joseph Duclos. Here's some of it:

Me:
[Tells ChatGPT a brief summary of Joseph Duclos, heritage, their CD being a former Hermès creative, some artisans also coming from H, prices about 75% of Hermès prices] My question is, do you think Duclos is justfied in pricing their bag that way despite being just 2 years in the business and not even having bags mostly hand-stitched?

ChatGPT: (Italics mine)
The scenario of Joseph Duclos, as described, presents a fascinating case study in luxury branding, heritage appropriation, and pricing strategies. The justification for their pricing strategy, despite being a relatively new entrant in the luxury handbag market, can be assessed from several angles:

Heritage and Brand Story​

Joseph Duclos leverages a historical narrative, connecting its brand to an 18th-century leather tanning business. This association with heritage, even if the direct lineage to luxury handbags is only recent, can imbue the brand with a sense of tradition, craftsmanship, and longevity in the minds of consumers. Luxury consumers often value story and history as part of what they are purchasing, which can justify a premium.

Expertise and Craftsmanship​

Having a creative director with experience from Hermès, along with craftsmen who have worked on iconic luxury products, brings an immediate association with high quality and expertise. The use of the same leather suppliers as Hermès, such as Tanneries Haas, further strengthens this perception. Even if the bags are not entirely hand-stitched, the partial hand-stitching in critical areas, combined with the overall quality of materials and design, can validate a higher price point.

Market Positioning​

Pricing the Diane bag at 75% of the cost of a Hermès Kelly might also be a strategic positioning move. It places Joseph Duclos within the luxury segment but offers a slightly more accessible price point, which could appeal to consumers who aspire to own a product with similar cachet and quality to Hermès but at a lower cost. This strategy could attract a specific customer segment that values the craftsmanship and design associated with Hermès but is also sensitive to price.

Consumer Perception​

In the luxury market, the price is often seen as an indicator of quality, exclusivity, and prestige. By pricing their products in the high-end range, Joseph Duclos is signaling that their bags are comparable in quality and exclusivity to established luxury brands. The willingness of consumers to pay such prices will depend on how well the brand manages to convey its value proposition through marketing, product quality, and customer experience.

Branding and Exclusivity​

The location of their store near Hermès HQ and the story they tell about their heritage contribute to creating an aura of exclusivity and luxury. The brand seems to be positioning itself as an exclusive alternative to Hermès, leveraging its proximity to the legendary brand to draw in customers who are looking for luxury handbags with a rich story and high-quality craftsmanship.

In conclusion, the justification for Joseph Duclos's pricing strategy lies in a combination of its heritage narrative, expertise derived from industry veterans, strategic market positioning, and the luxury consumer's perception of value. The success of this strategy will largely depend on the brand's ability to maintain high standards of quality, effectively communicate its unique value proposition, and foster a desirable brand image that resonates with luxury consumers.

Good to know CGPT evaluates the same way as most of us on this thread. What we don't have is JD's data over the last 2 years to check within their start-up timeline.

Interesting choice of words: "heritage appropriation" . Not arguing, they are, but consider many of the heritage brands have evolved away from their own quality standards set a century or decades ago. Having just visited the Chanel Exhibition at the V&A London, I can tell my RTW Chanel jackets are not a patch quality wise on 50-70 y o couture. My 1950s wood/boar-skin Gucci jewellery box is meticulously made, so many perfect details to elevate, especially its 'Gucci-green' silk & cotton velvet. Gucci haven't made anything in their heritage leather (boar) since 2010. Find me more than ltd ed heritage leathers in Hermes, they can't stop pushing Epsom, the cheapest leather to produce. Screen-printed scarves are touted as something special, whereas every silk pre-2013 was. If heritage was heritage in terms of quality, we wouldn't all be looking at JD.

 

[bagnut1]

If heritage was heritage in terms of quality, we wouldn't all be looking at JD.

YES!

As you so astutely point out, even with holy-grail-Hermes this is true. It is simply impossible to scale to conglomerate- and multi-national-sized enterprises (with the 21st century profit requirements) and keep that quality.

 

[bagnut1]

Me:
I guess they are also taking a gamble, right? Because what if customers get turned off by the price, knowing that they’re essentially just a startup.

ChatGPT:
Absolutely, it's a gamble. Pricing strategies, especially in the luxury sector, involve a delicate balance. A new brand like Joseph Duclos setting high prices risks alienating potential customers who might be skeptical about the value and heritage of a relatively unknown entity. There are several factors at play:

Customer Perception​

If customers do not perceive the value—be it in the brand's heritage, craftsmanship, or exclusivity—to match the high price, they may be reluctant to invest in the brand. The narrative around the brand's history and the expertise behind it needs to be compelling enough to justify the cost in the eyes of consumers.

Brand Trust and Loyalty​

Established luxury brands like Hermès have built up decades (or even centuries) of trust and loyalty with their customer base. A newcomer lacks this historical relationship, which can make high prices seem presumptuous to potential buyers without a strong, immediate demonstration of value.

Market Positioning​

While positioning close to the pricing of established brands can lend an air of luxury and exclusivity, it also places the newcomer in direct comparison with those brands. If consumers do not see a clear reason to choose the newer brand over the established one—whether due to design, quality, service, or brand prestige—the strategy may backfire.

Competitive Response​

There's also the risk of how competitors might respond. Established brands could see a newcomer's high pricing as a challenge and might respond with marketing strategies that reinforce their own value propositions, making it harder for the new brand to gain a foothold.

Economic Factors​

Economic conditions can also affect how consumers perceive high-priced items. In uncertain economic times, even luxury consumers may become more discerning about where they invest their money, favoring established brands with proven resale value or investment potential.

Despite these risks, high pricing can also work as a strategic bet on differentiation and creating a buzz. If Joseph Duclos can effectively communicate its unique selling propositions—be it heritage, craftsmanship, or an exclusive consumer experience—it might well carve out a niche among luxury consumers looking for something new yet rooted in a narrative of tradition and quality. Success in luxury branding often comes down to storytelling and the emotional resonance of the brand as much as to the inherent quality of the products. Achieving this balance is challenging but not impossible, and doing so can yield significant rewards.

Brilliant.

 

[textilegirl]

YES!

As you so astutely point out, even with holy-grail-Hermes this is true. It is simply impossible to scale to conglomerate- and multi-national-sized enterprises (with the 21st century profit requirements) and keep that quality.

Exactly, ‘scale’ and bespoke/heritage don’t go together very well.

 

[FatFIRE]

If you are such a fan of Hermes, why not just stick to the brand and let other have fun with their bag ? I haven’t heard any complaints about JD’s hardware and it’s weird to me that you mostly dedicated your account just to comment on this channel …

This is a thread about JD bags. Not about anyone´s opinion on where I should or shouldn´t post.
So I don´t understand what you wanted to say about JD with such a comment. Do you not agree that the their "gilded" hardware is inferior to H?

 

[FatFIRE]

One thing I appreciate about JD is their willingness to produce (relatively) less expensive bags for clients who don’t have the ability or appetite to spend H level amounts of money. JD totes and non-Diane bags are less than comparable H leather bags.

1. JD bags are not comparable to H. Neither in quality, nor heritage / brand equity.
2. How are JD totes even less expensive than Hermes?
H tote Cabasellier is below 3k euro in Europe and $3,325 in the US, whereas Lectoure tote (also unlined) is 3,300€. That´s ca $3600 (and that´s even without the duties and taxes for customers from US, which are their main clientele).

 

[Dann2510]

This is a thread about JD bags. Not about anyone´s opinion on where I should or shouldn´t post.
So I don´t understand what you wanted to say about JD with such a comment. Do you not agree that the their "gilded" hardware is inferior to H?

Obvious I could not control your activities but your focusing too much about JD tendency makes you appeared to be more of a JD hater than a general bag lover.
And inferior or not, there has been no heard issues about JD hardware erosion since this thread started in 2022 so why would we care about technicality if they still stay pretty after these years?

 

[Dann2510]

1. JD bags are not comparable to H. Neither in quality, nor heritage / brand equity.
2. How are JD totes even less expensive than Hermes?
H tote Cabasellier is below 3k euro in Europe and $3,325 in the US, whereas Lectoure tote (also unlined) is 3,300€. That´s ca $3600 (and that´s even without the duties and taxes for customers from US, which are their main clientele).

Seeing this tote does make me understand why JD Lectoure is more expensive

 

[Mousy]

1. JD bags are not comparable to H. Neither in quality, nor heritage / brand equity.
2. How are JD totes even less expensive than Hermes?
H tote Cabasellier is below 3k euro in Europe and $3,325 in the US, whereas Lectoure tote (also unlined) is 3,300€. That´s ca $3600 (and that´s even without the duties and taxes for customers from US, which are their main clientele).

I stand corrected about one bag. I’ve never seen this tote in my 59-years of life. I’ve been fortunate until your latest post. @Dann2510 is correct — we know why the Lectoure tote is more expensive.

I just thought of another great thing about JD — their business practice isn’t being sued like H’s model. At JD, you buy what you want because you want it, not because you’re required to (literally and figuratively) pay homage to a company to hopefully be offered a bag for $10K+ in a color you don’t want. Oh, wait. My H comment will just take us back to the praises of Celine. I know the routine.