Hermès Faces Class Action Suit Over Birkin Sales Practices

[haute okole]

It's amazing that a class action suit filed by a batch of lawyers who literally make their living by filing frivolous suits on contingency has gotten this much attention - in the media and here.

It's NOT tying bc there's no specific items bundled together, and it's certainly not Cartwright. It's completely frivolous, but apparently makes great clickbait.

As has been noted many many times in this thread, you can't buy the most desirable models from Rolex, Mercedes, Ferrari, Tesla etc etc etc unless you have a relationship with a store/dealer/the company. You can't even buy coveted wines if you're not on a long-term customer list (and yes wineries have purchase requirements to stay on the list).

It's silly, and the worst thing about it is that it exposes the ugliness of what people actually think (like "someone who lives near South Central isn't a likely Hermes customer" 🤯 or all the nasty comments in the media about Hermes customers and "eat the rich").

H won't issue a statement because 1) they almost never do and 2) it's standard PR practice to refrain from comment on class actions.

In the end this is just more mythmaking for Hermès. More articles saying that Birkins cost $100K. More perception that it's the most elite bag in the world. It'll either be great for the brand or reduce it further to a symbol of conspicuous consumption.

Sorry if my comment regarding Plaintiff Glinoga’s living situation annoyed you. My comment came primarily from my research regarding how he appears to make a living. Since 2020, he has filed 4 lawsuits, currently involved in two class actions filed in the last 3 months and all against deep pockets. In at least one of the cases, he continued to delay by failing to serve defendants and he and his attorney would continuously fail to appear at scheduled court appearances. Nothing galls me more than a lazy, vexatious litigant with a specious claim.

 

[Angiebbb]

In this anecdote, it seems to suggest there is no tying more than there is tying, since your friend got bags at way less than the "speculated prespend"


Do you actually know someone that did that and got a bag?



What I am actually confused about is whether there is a difference between "Prespend" and "tying". People seem to be mad at the term "prespend" altogether which many have already pointed out that many luxury brands also do.

That same friend bought a table, chairs and an exotic NQB and became a super VIP immediately in Europe in 2020-2021. After that she never spent a dime again in anything other than shoes, belts, bracelets, bags or SLGs and she buys multiple QBs in a few countries around the world every year. They tried to make her spend in other categories at her home store, she threatened to move to another store in that country and now she always gets the most coveted LE bags without having to spend in anything other than the metiers I mentioned above. It is the same friend that got the K28 in the U.S.

 

[sosauce]

In this anecdote, it seems to suggest there is no tying more than there is tying, since your friend got bags at way less than the "speculated prespend"


Do you actually know someone that did that and got a bag?



What I am actually confused about is whether there is a difference between "Prespend" and "tying". People seem to be mad at the term "prespend" altogether which many have already pointed out that many luxury brands also do.

Seen another way, if I only wanted a specific watch, why would I want all those other watches if there was only one model I wanted. It actually may be better to be given other options/categories to spend your money.

It seems that at the crux of this saga, many are just upset Hermes is not just selling purses and wants to sell other things? (not saying thats your viewpoint, but it just seems like thats where a lot of the complaints seem to be stemming about, that Hermes is not known for xyz)

Well, if the prespend is actually existent, then it is probably a form of tying. But not all tying is inherently unlawful.

However, horizontal tying in particular is more severely scrutinized than vertical tying, because it is less related to the desirable target good.

 

[addiCCted]

However, horizontal tying in particular is more severely scrutinized than vertical tying, because it is less related to the desirable target good.

Interesting....I didn't know there were classes of tying. Thanks for explaining.

I just still don't see where its wrong for a company to have even prespend as a preliminary requirement for more limited and coveted item. I haven't really kept up with the legal status of things, but is it still legal to have exclusive members only clubs that withhold services to the general public if they don't pay their minimum fee? Maybe I'm too much of a reductionist but I feel like its very similar vibes? Of course we can argue the nuances where they are dissimilar, again my assertion that maybe I'm too much of a reductionist.

Or is the argument that people have paid the fee but aren't getting the tee times they wanted?

 

[addiCCted]

After that she never spent a dime again in anything other than shoes, belts, bracelets, bags or SLGs and she buys multiple QBs in a few countries around the world every year. They tried to make her spend in other categories at her home store, she threatened to move to another store in that country and now she always gets the most coveted LE bags without having to spend in anything other than the metiers I mentioned above. It is the same friend that got the K28 in the U.S.

Again, it sounds like your friend is making the case that there is no tying bc shes just buying what she wants and in some cases don't even have to buy anything other than the bag

 

[HeartHermes]

True, but my point is that the lottery (fair because random) doesn’t alleviate the disappointment of the majority. To me that’s the issue with this lawsuit - the law is not there to validate the plaintiffs’ disappointment; it is concerned with different matters entirely.

I don't think the lottery system is a very fair system, either. If you live in France, or any of the surrounding countries where you can be in Paris in just a few hours, you have a big advantage because you can literally apply daily for a leather appointment. If your name is pulled, you can hop on a train the next day. If you live a lot farther away, you'll have to spend a few thousand on plane fare and hotels to fly to Paris, where you'll mostly likely only be there for just a week or two. I've heard many Hermes fans lament going to Paris for a week or two, applying every single day for a leather appointment, and finally having to leave, never having received one. Those who live in France and/or the surrounding countries definitely have a distinct advantage since they can apply every single day for a leather appointment. So even the lottery system isn't totally fair due to the barrier of distance/proximity.
Editing this to say, I don't blame Hermes for this, but it does seem to make it a lot harder for those people who live much farther away but are spending time/dollars to fly to Paris in hopes of getting a bag. They are now competing for leather appointments with thousands of people who live in the area and who would never have considered taking off a day from work to line up outside the store back when that was the system.

 

[Sevenatenine]

I think the lack of some products or finding what one wants is what makes the most that spend a lot and get no QB very frustrated and honestly I think that is also one of the reasons this lawsuit was filed. It was not only because the person spent and couldn’t get a second Birkin. Since Hermes is not a fashion house, you won’t see 200 new bags each season or very different shoe styles. Ultimately a lot of people that buy Hermes or bought their products through the years mainly has or had interest in bags, shoes, scarves, belts, SLGs. If I could spend 25k in other bags and shoes and get a B or K after, that would be wonderful, but it doesn’t work that way. Hence why people get so upset, because in many cases one ends up buying something one does not desire or has a need for because that person is longing for a bag, and led to believe through a wishlist that a bag will arrive with “building someone’s profile.” I have a friend who ordered a saddle for an imaginary horse to get a Birkin Rock.

But that's exactly opposite of the company philosophy on selling b/k, according to them, they only want ppl who are genuinely interested in the brand bc there arent enough to go around. Hence the ppl with low prespend, are still able to get a b/k. (I still hold my opinion on how if unlimited b/k were available, they'd sell them openly in first come first served fashion)
Ppl were definitely able to get a qb only with spending in silk, shoes, and slgs (I'm an example myself, my first qb was after I bought a few pairs of shoes, few slgs, and slightly obscene amount of scarves) before. Ton of ppl are currently trying to circumvent by "profile building", in turn creates vicious cycle of ppl spending more and more to try to circumvent.
If you only buy things that you love, you wouldn't be so upset over not getting a bag, bc you still love the items you got. You're only upset bc you didn't want those items to begin with. And that is on you (not you as in you but like ppl like the plantiffs 😄).

 

[Angiebbb]

Seen another way, if I only wanted a specific watch, why would I want all those other watches if there was only one model I wanted. It actually may be better to be given other options/categories to spend your money.

It seems that at the crux of this saga, many are just upset Hermes is not just selling purses and wants to sell other things? (not saying thats your viewpoint, but it just seems like thats where a lot of the complaints seem to be stemming about, that Hermes is not known for xyz)

When one starts researching watches or cars, one immediately learns you won’t get the Ferrari or watch you want without buying other watches or Ferrari. Ferrari is not going to put you on a wishlist and ask you to “work on your profile.” I have a friend who works on marketing for special models of the most expensive cars, and that is all he does.

With Hermes most people don’t do any research before buying, and the ones that do in the U.S. immediately learn of the Hermes game.

I’ve been a client of Hermes for almost 10 years outside the U.S., and honestly I am shocked at the sales practices here. I’ve experienced it. Maybe I got unlucky with the SA, a store, who knows.

I bought a few things at other stores in the U.S. in the past. I got a Birkin touch some 4 years ago. I returned to the same store this year just to look around while on that city, the woman was extremely rude to me. I mentioned that I had talked to the prior associate and she told me to ask the manager to assign me a new associate at that store. The woman was not a manager but said - “you can shop with me.” I told her I wanted the black Hilona boots. She told me the boots wouldn’t fit my calves. The Hilona boots are big on the calves, and I had them already in another color but didn’t say anything. I asked for some dog stuff, other shoes and an equestrian jacket. She just told me nothing was available and didn’t even search. I found it highly offensive that she told me the boots wouldn’t fit me while I have the boots. She also mentioned - “but this SA left the store some time ago.” I don’t live in that city, and I should be able to go there whenever I want and should never be treated like that. Then she told me I should look for what I wanted on the internet. That is definitely not a luxurious experience to me. I thought about sending an email to complain, but decided not to.

A lot of people have similar experiences at Hermes stores around the world. Even my super VIP friend at Hermes told me she was treated badly at FSH before, so she shops at another Paris store.

A friend’s friend is a non-leather SA at FSH, and when she interviewed at Hermes, her interview was basically “do you know how to say no?” That is all you need to do here. You will always meet your sales target, you never have to worry about that. You just need to say “no” all the time.

I’ve also met wonderful SAs at Hermes. I know that sometimes it does not depend on the SA if you will get a bag or not outside the U.S. SAs do not get commissions at all in some European countries. They get promoted if they hit sales targets.

 

[Veritybelle]

In your example, it would be more parallel if Harvard made it a requirement for applicants to attend a $20,000 summer camp in order to be considered for admission.

This presupposes the outcome of the tying complaint.

 

[FrenchNewbie]

I don't think the lottery system is a very fair system, either. If you live in France, or any of the surrounding countries where you can be in Paris in just a few hours, you have a big advantage because you can literally apply daily for a leather appointment. If your name is pulled, you can hop on a train the next day. If you live a lot farther away, you'll have to spend a few thousand on plane fare and hotels to fly to Paris, where you'll mostly likely only be there for just a week or two. I've heard many Hermes fans lament going to Paris for a week or two, applying every single day for a leather appointment, and finally having to leave, never having received one. Those who live in France and/or the surrounding countries definitely have a distinct advantage since they can apply every single day for a leather appointment. So even the lottery system isn't totally fair due to the barrier of distance/proximity.
Editing this to say, I don't blame Hermes for this, but it does seem to make it a lot harder for those people who live much farther away but are spending time/dollars to fly to Paris in hopes of getting a bag. They are now competing for leather appointments with thousands of people who live in the area and who would never have considered taking off a day from work to line up outside the store back when that was the system.

I can definitely see your point there about the Paris lottery; but I do think a lottery system of some sorts could be fair in the US.
Maybe they can tweak or refine it a bit before rolling it out, for example:

• you automatically get declined if you have won a lottery within the last 30 days
• you have to be below your QB allocation for the year (i.e. if you already have 2 QB from 2024, you won't be eligible)
• you have to apply more than 5 days in advance (that weeds out people that are arbitrarily trying for an appointment, but have no intention of actually traveling to that city's store or showing up; i.e. they would have had to make travel arrangements)
• you state in the request whether you want a QB or a non-QB; that will help them align the appointments to the appropriate SAs

I think that keeps it fair and lets newcomers have a shot, while also keeping repeat winners and resellers from saturating the "spots".

 

[addiCCted]

She told me the boots wouldn’t fit my calves.

how rude.

Then she told me I should look for what I wanted on the internet.

She's not a good SA. Rude again

her interview was basically “do you know how to say no?” That is all you need to do here.

lololololol

I'm sorry dear you had such a bad experience. I will agree with you that they hire just about anyone and I've hit a few rotten apples myself but I never settled with a SA I didn't like. I think that's why the threads always say find a SA you vibe with. I've mentioned before I'll go into stores and just buy the cheapest things and see what the SAs attitude is. Its quite telling.

When one starts researching watches or cars, one immediately learns you won’t get the Ferrari or watch you want without buying other watches or Ferrari. Ferrari is not going to put you on a wishlist and ask you to “work on your profile.”

So would it not be tying if Hermes lets people buy purses as part of their spend?

 

[Angiebbb]

But that's exactly opposite of the company philosophy on selling b/k, according to them, they only want ppl who are genuinely interested in the brand bc there arent enough to go around. Hence the ppl with low prespend, are still able to get a b/k. (I still hold my opinion on how if unlimited b/k were available, they'd sell them openly in first come first served fashion)
Ppl were definitely able to get a qb only with spending in silk, shoes, and slgs (I'm an example myself, my first qb was after I bought a few pairs of shoes, few slgs, and slightly obscene amount of scarves) before. Ton of ppl are currently trying to circumvent by "profile building", in turn creates vicious cycle of ppl spending more and more to try to circumvent.
If you only buy things that you love, you wouldn't be so upset over not getting a bag, bc you still love the items you got. You're only upset bc you didn't want those items to begin with. And that is on you (not you as in you but like ppl like the plantiffs 😄).

One can be genuinely interested in a brand because they just like some of their products. It is not a crime to only like Chanel bags for example, and not their RTW, and that should not be frowned upon either. Chanel will sell you a bag if they have it available. They won’t tell you “there are no bags” while there are many inside a locked space. They might say - “that bag is a runway piece and there is a waitlist.” The bag might arrive or not, but you definitely don’t need to get anything to have access to that bag if it arrives for you. However most products Chanel have sell themselves, so they don’t need to resort to Hermes’ sales tactics.

Wherever Hermes tells you, it is just marketing strategy, blablablah. If loyalty was always rewarded, they would have offered a B/K to someone that spent 60k for example. They are smart, they need to make sure no one is going to sue them for tying. It happened anyway.

They would never sell B or K openly if there was unlimited supply, because they probably wouldn’t be selling as much jewelry, plates, baby blankets, lamps. Look at their financial results. Their numbers would go significantly down.

@Israeli_Flava is completely right. If they see one has money to spend and will spend to get a bag, they will milk it. They might offer you a QB in the beginning with little prespend, but after that one will need to spend.

Honestly, if I knew before how many SAs operate in the U.S., all this “Hermes game” stuff, I would not have bought anything here this past year. I would have 3 MKs or B25s right now brand new from the resale market. I despise resale, so I don’t buy resale. But after one is invested, it is like a casino. I have enough QBs so it doesn’t aggravate me as much, but I imagine someone that spent 25k or 60k and got no offer ever from any store should be really frustrated.

There are so many scarves, shoes etc. one can buy. Most women are generally more interested in bags and shoes, not just from Hermes, but overall.

I have many scarves, I don’t need anymore. But I would happily buy 100 bags. 😆😆

In any event, lesson learned.

 

[Veritybelle]

I don't think the lottery system is a very fair system, either. If you live in France, or any of the surrounding countries where you can be in Paris in just a few hours, you have a big advantage because you can literally apply daily for a leather appointment. If your name is pulled, you can hop on a train the next day. If you live a lot farther away, you'll have to spend a few thousand on plane fare and hotels to fly to Paris, where you'll mostly likely only be there for just a week or two. I've heard many Hermes fans lament going to Paris for a week or two, applying every single day for a leather appointment, and finally having to leave, never having received one. Those who live in France and/or the surrounding countries definitely have a distinct advantage since they can apply every single day for a leather appointment. So even the lottery system isn't totally fair due to the barrier of distance/proximity.
Editing this to say, I don't blame Hermes for this, but it does seem to make it a lot harder for those people who live much farther away but are spending time/dollars to fly to Paris in hopes of getting a bag. They are now competing for leather appointments with thousands of people who live in the area and who would never have considered taking off a day from work to line up outside the store back when that was the system.

Yes I agree with this. There will always be some people who have a lucky advantage in the lottery system. No system will be perfect. My question is, what would be “fair”? Are people saying a “fair” system is one where everyone gets whatever bag they want, because that is, unfortunately, unrealistic. Whatever you think about Hermès production capacity, Hermès is not Zara, Birkins are not widgets and they never will be. So it seems clear to me that not even a “fair” system could solve the problem that the majority of people will always be disappointed.

 

[Sevenatenine]

One can be genuinely interested in a brand because they just like some of their products. It is not a crime to only like Chanel bags for example, and not their RTW, and that should not be frowned upon either. Chanel will sell you a bag if they have it available. They won’t tell you “there are no bags” while there are many inside a locked space. They might say - “that bag is a runway piece and there is a waitlist.” The bag might arrive or not, but you definitely don’t need to get anything to have access to that bag if it arrives for you. However most products Chanel have sell themselves, so they don’t need to resort to Hermes’ sales tactics.

Wherever Hermes tells you, it is just marketing strategy, blablablah. If loyalty was always rewarded, they would have offered a B/K to someone that spent 60k for example. They are smart, they need to make sure no one is going to sue them for tying. It happened anyway.

They would never sell B or K openly if there was unlimited supply, because they probably wouldn’t be selling as much jewelry, plates, baby blankets, lamps. Look at their financial results. Their numbers would go significantly down.

@Israeli_Flava is completely right. If they see one has money to spend and will spend to get a bag, they will milk it. They might offer you a QB in the beginning with little prespend, but after that one will need to spend.

Honestly, if I knew before how many SAs operate in the U.S., all this “Hermes game” stuff, I would not have bought anything here this past year. I would have 3 MKs or B25s right now brand new from the resale market. I despise resale, so I don’t buy resale. But after one is invested, it is like a casino. I have enough QBs so it doesn’t aggravate me as much, but I imagine someone that spent 25k or 60k and got no offer ever from any store should be really frustrated.

There are so many scarves, shoes etc. one can buy. Most women are generally more interested in bags and shoes, not just from Hermes, but overall.

I have many scarves, I don’t need anymore. But I would happily buy 100 bags. 😆😆

In any event, lesson learned.

I don't think we will close on the opinion gap, as I'm exact opposite of what you described, I've been saying no to bags for a few years bc I have too many. I can't stop from buying scarves though!

 

[Angiebbb]

I don't think the lottery system is a very fair system, either. If you live in France, or any of the surrounding countries where you can be in Paris in just a few hours, you have a big advantage because you can literally apply daily for a leather appointment. If your name is pulled, you can hop on a train the next day. If you live a lot farther away, you'll have to spend a few thousand on plane fare and hotels to fly to Paris, where you'll mostly likely only be there for just a week or two. I've heard many Hermes fans lament going to Paris for a week or two, applying every single day for a leather appointment, and finally having to leave, never having received one. Those who live in France and/or the surrounding countries definitely have a distinct advantage since they can apply every single day for a leather appointment. So even the lottery system isn't totally fair due to the barrier of distance/proximity.
Editing this to say, I don't blame Hermes for this, but it does seem to make it a lot harder for those people who live much farther away but are spending time/dollars to fly to Paris in hopes of getting a bag. They are now competing for leather appointments with thousands of people who live in the area and who would never have considered taking off a day from work to line up outside the store back when that was the system.

I think it is a much better system than what the U.S. has currently.
Each country caters to its local customers. It is fair that people that live in France or in Europe have more access to bags in their countries than US customers. The stores are in Europe.
It is very rare you will see an European hop on a plane to just try to get a bag in the U.S. I only know two Europeans that wanted Hermes bags and were not able to get them yet in Europe. I know many Europeans that didn’t have to spend a cent to get a B or K, and many that didn’t have to spend much to get at least one. Things changed since COVID but it is still a more fair place to get a bag than the US.