Hermès and Ethics: Sustainability, Animal Testing and Treatment, Corporate Social Responsibility

[PJW5813]

You have started to focus on the problem with using exotics for clothing and decoration.
I'm sure many of us supporting this thread are with you.
In some circumstances there are questionable methods of slaughter involved in killing crocs and gators
in order to protect the skins.
I believe that a few years ago there was a film made by PETA??? that rather shocked the public.

Many people see all forms of cow hides as by-products of the food chain, so therefore (more) acceptable.

 

[ladysarah]

@TC1 & @TraceySH re alligator & exotics it’s too broad a subject to comprehensively address in one post. (in fact TPF used to remove any posts relating to this, but glad to see things are changing)
The sort of reptiles mentioned by Tracey would be too ugly and damaged (from the animals inter -fighting in the wild ) and would never be used for any quality product, certainly not Hermes. They are seen in some horrible fakes and inferior brands. Just like @PJW5813 stated many people, consider ‘all forms of cow hides as by-products of the food chain, so therefore (more) acceptable.’
it’s also a matter of perception, because speaking for myself, I simply don’t see the attraction of reptile items...

 

[TraceySH]

@TC1 & @TraceySH re alligator & exotics it’s too broad a subject to comprehensively address in one post. (in fact TPF used to remove any posts relating to this, but glad to see things are changing)
The sort of reptiles mentioned by Tracey would be too ugly and damaged (from the animals inter -fighting in the wild ) and would never be used for any quality product, certainly not Hermes. They are seen in some horrible fakes and inferior brands. Just like @PJW5813 stated many people, consider ‘all forms of cow hides as by-products of the food chain, so therefore (more) acceptable.’
it’s also a matter of perception, because speaking for myself, I simply don’t see the attraction of reptile items...

It was never my inference that H or another high end brand would use discarded or damaged skins, just a comment that some people are trying to do something to not have (even the subpar skins) go to waste. It's a much broader conversation, yes. I personally don't have any issues with exotics so long as they are sustainably and responsibly raised and euthanized (as Hermes outlines in their reports). My best friend's father was killed an eaten by an alligator in Louisiana, so I would not exactly be the best advocate for an unbiased opinion on such things. But I do think conversations are both warranted and reasonable on a forum such as this. I was not aware tpf used to remove posts on this subject. Wow.

 

[AnnaE]

In general, I think it's more sustainable to use leather than plastic-based alternatives. In my experience, leather lasts longer and can be refurbished and repaired (especially Hermes leather!). I used to work in the energy space, and the process of making fake leather / 'vegan' leather is not pretty / great for the environment. In terms of it being part of an animal, to me, it's like eating meat: I stopped buying any meat unless I know it came from well-treated animals. As a result I am ok using Hermes' leather because I am reasonably confident that the animals were well treated.

(I have never given much thought to reptile skins as being an unsound practice and need to research this (intuitively, I am more prone to feel bad about a cute calf than a monitor lizard!). )

I haven't bought a non-Hermes bag in a long time, so I feel like I am ok in terms of my sustainability / ethics karma. Most of my leather shoe purchases are Chanel flats, and I am slightly terrified to look up their practices in case they are bad (I really love those flats...).

Something that makes me feel good about Hermes is the idea of artisanship and paying people a living wage to create beautiful, high-quality items. We live in an era where people have SO MUCH stuff; consumerism is everything. I know people who buy something for $10 at H&M, wear it twice and throw it away. It really, really bothers me. And yes, I do understand that Hermes is not exactly an alternative to H&M, and many people can only afford fast fashion. But we need to shift the conversation to buying fewer, higher-quality things, and it's great to see brands putting that idea into practice.

As for animal testing, I don't know how to think about it. I have seen videos against it, and it's terrifying. If there are viable alternatives, companies should use them. But I also think of all the pharma development and other important work that takes place using lab mice (rats?), and how a lot of the scientific advancement would have been impossible without that. Of course, developing life-saving medication is not the same as developing moisturizer, so that's something to think about.

 

[QuelleFromage]

In general, I think it's more sustainable to use leather than plastic-based alternatives. In my experience, leather lasts longer and can be refurbished and repaired (especially Hermes leather!). I used to work in the energy space, and the process of making fake leather / 'vegan' leather is not pretty / great for the environment. In terms of it being part of an animal, to me, it's like eating meat: I stopped buying any meat unless I know it came from well-treated animals. As a result I am ok using Hermes' leather because I am reasonably confident that the animals were well treated.

(I have never given much thought to reptile skins as being an unsound practice and need to research this (intuitively, I am more prone to feel bad about a cute calf than a monitor lizard!). )

I haven't bought a non-Hermes bag in a long time, so I feel like I am ok in terms of my sustainability / ethics karma. Most of my leather shoe purchases are Chanel flats, and I am slightly terrified to look up their practices in case they are bad (I really love those flats...).

Something that makes me feel good about Hermes is the idea of artisanship and paying people a living wage to create beautiful, high-quality items. We live in an era where people have SO MUCH stuff; consumerism is everything. I know people who buy something for $10 at H&M, wear it twice and throw it away. It really, really bothers me. And yes, I do understand that Hermes is not exactly an alternative to H&M, and many people can only afford fast fashion. But we need to shift the conversation to buying fewer, higher-quality things, and it's great to see brands putting that idea into practice.

As for animal testing, I don't know how to think about it. I have seen videos against it, and it's terrifying. If there are viable alternatives, companies should use them. But I also think of all the pharma development and other important work that takes place using lab mice (rats?), and how a lot of the scientific advancement would have been impossible without that. Of course, developing life-saving medication is not the same as developing moisturizer, so that's something to think about.

The thing with animal testing for cosmetics is that human skin can be grown in a lab, and products tested on that. It's not just that cosmetics are not lifesaving - there is a viable alternative that works very well. Now that so many of the large companies use these alternatives, it's safe to say they work. So it's truly unnecessary to cause suffering for these tests.

 

[PJW5813]

AnnaE,
you express many of the thoughts that we can have once we start to be ethically aware of our purchasing decisions.

 

[lalame]

I’m so glad to see this thread as it’s something I think about more and more. I even stopped eating red meat recently, especially pork, and just didn’t know how to reconcile that with my enjoyment of bags and such. I’m very glad to know at least H leathers are mostly by-products... I don’t know if this is hypocritical but I am not as horrified by companies like Canada Goose, though many are, as I feel like as long as the fur is truly a byproduct of species clearing in an area, at least they are getting the most value out of the animal as opposed to killing it and letting a life go to waste. Animals that are solely bred and killed for their skins, I just couldn’t.

 

[momoc]

I believe there is a general consumer trend to being more conscious about (1) cruelty-free, animal rights & (2) environmental impacts and sustainability (two separate causes that sometimes happen to overlap). I am actually vegetarian, but I use leather products & and I'm not anti-exotics either. It's a thing I struggle with a lot - I know I'm picking and choosing when it's convenient for me (somehow, not eating meat is not that hard - I just love eating veggies anyways). But I figured I might as well do the thing that I can do since it's still better than not doing anything.

I think the general trend of people becoming more conscious about these important issues makes it inevitable that you eventually find them even on places such as tPF - a place to escape to for handbag lovers, forget some heavier issues and indulge in our mutual love for something that many won't understand. I think the rising awareness is partially due to how easily available information has become thanks to the Internet. Of course the flip side is the amount of misinformation it also spreads so we need to be diligent and do research and check. So to use this Internet forum to discuss & share information in order to facilitate informed decisions is IMO a wonderful idea. Some probably don’t like having this kind of threads here and I do understand the sentiment, but it's perhaps better to ask those who wish to stay away from these topics to ignore and not click, rather than to deny those who wish to have this discussion a place to do so.

Back to Hermes - I finally had time to read the links people have shared in the thread. Thank you to all. I agree that Hermes seems to understand the importance of the issues & make an effort. I hope they continue to find ways to do more.

 

[QuelleFromage]

I believe there is a general consumer trend to being more conscious about (1) cruelty-free, animal rights & (2) environmental impacts and sustainability (two separate causes that sometimes happen to overlap). I am actually vegetarian, but I use leather products & and I'm not anti-exotics either. It's a thing I struggle with a lot - I know I'm picking and choosing when it's convenient for me (somehow, not eating meat is not that hard - I just love eating veggies anyways). But I figured I might as well do the thing that I can do since it's still better than not doing anything.

I think the general trend of people becoming more conscious about these important issues makes it inevitable that you eventually find them even on places such as tPF - a place to escape to for handbag lovers, forget some heavier issues and indulge in our mutual love for something that many won't understand. I think the rising awareness is partially due to how easily available information has become thanks to the Internet. Of course the flip side is the amount of misinformation it also spreads so we need to be diligent and do research and check. So to use this Internet forum to discuss & share information in order to facilitate informed decisions is IMO a wonderful idea. Some probably don’t like having this kind of threads here and I do understand the sentiment, but it's perhaps better to ask those who wish to stay away from these topics to ignore and not click, rather than to deny those who wish to have this discussion a place to do so.

Back to Hermes - I finally had time to read the links people have shared in the thread. Thank you to all. I agree that Hermes seems to understand the importance of the issues & make an effort. I hope they continue to find ways to do more.

That's why we have this thread. Just as I do not have to read the fur threads, or any number of others that may bother me, no one has to read this one.
Frankly, I was bothered by the implication I sometimes felt in tPF that because we love bags, we can't think critically or care about issues.
We are all in different places in terms of how we choose to reflect our concern and it's find to just be curious. No judgment zone here

 

[Handbag1234]

Does anyone know if the new lipsticks will be sold in mainland China, and so tested on animals?

 

[ladysarah]

Does anyone know if the new lipsticks will be sold in mainland China, and so tested on animals?

If you go back and read this thread from start...

 

[momoc]

I did read that while the lipsticks are launching on March 4th in many countries, the list doesn’t include China and the current info is they won’t launch in China until maybe 2021. People were wondering why...maybe it actually has something to do with animal testing.

 

[QuelleFromage]

Does anyone know if the new lipsticks will be sold in mainland China, and so tested on animals?

That is part of what jump-started this thread, and there is a discussion about this in the skincare and makeup thread, stopped by mods and the requests of other members. I would suggest you read back on that and then continue here.

 

[Liberté]

I'm guessing the wild gators are not used for leather because the skins are damaged. I've seen them fighting in the swamps - yikes!

It could also be to keep the wild population from over-hunting and poaching. Hermès has full control ovdr the conditions and it's easier to adjust and make sure the suppliers are compliant. There was a documentary posted somewhere on the forum about bad conditions in Italian tanneries where basically foreign workers were exploited.

 

[QuelleFromage]

It could also be to keep the wild population from over-hunting and poaching. Hermès has full control ovdr the conditions and it's easier to adjust and make sure the suppliers are compliant. There was a documentary posted somewhere on the forum about bad conditions in Italian tanneries where basically foreign workers were exploited.

Can you clarify? What I was saying is that I don't think the culling of the gator population in Louisiana is producing hides - Hermès uses farmed hides - and offering a reason. Anyone who has seen a wild gator understands they are not in perfect condition.