H leathers getting thinner?

[varvara]

Also very important is to realize, that thinner skins can be more of an issue on Kellys than on Birkins. A Birkin bag, having two handles and being opened in the middle (optional of course, but that is how it's usually carried) is less prone to damage as even if stuffed full, the weight of the contents is usually distributed evenly, with the two handles giving it the extra support.
Small Kelly bags (such as 20,25 even a 28) can't really be over- stuffed as their character is more of an occasional bags, whereas bigger sizes like 32, 35 and 40 are used mostly as 'everyday' and many times also 'work and travel bags'. They can be carried opened, but we all know this is not the safest way so when you stuff the bag, all the weight is put on the handle and the turn lock. The stiffer and thicker the skin, the less damage. The thinner and softer, the bigger risk of it.

 

[cuppy]

May I ask whats the size of your Kelly? Im also struggling if I should request a togo K28 or K25 as I have recently seen some seriously abused togo Kellys in the office that are all soft and lost the shapes. And from I have known about the owners they wont carry fakes.

it is k28.

 

[MSO13]

I personally have no problem with things you stated above. I have a problem when the Togo skin, which does have its specifics and characteristics looks like evergrain (that does have its own too).
People get Togo (including myself) because of its nature, durability and esthetics. I personally love the softness of evergrain or evercolor (I even own a b30 in vert laurier in evergrain) but I would never get it again because no matter how lovely, buttery and shiny the bag looks with use, it does not age the way I would like it to. This is why I stick with Togo and CT for my everyday workhorse bags. And many others do too.
Now imagine, a client does the research on H skins (or not) and knows they want Togo for maybe there one and only bag (or not) and when after a year (and more) wait the box is opened, a huge dissapointment happens. Because the skin not only looks nothing like Togo (not speaking of if the grain is bigger or smaller by 0.00001 mm) but it's simply a very thin, floppy, almost grainless bag. And yes, it is marked as Togo.
This did not happen once, my SD had bags like this in the past, some were sent back to Paris as some clients declined them as faulty.
I am very well aware of the fact that things change, the process of production and tanning changes, I stress here I had been buying these bags for over a decade and I do own a few older pieces.
But what disturbes me is the quality decline, which is very prominent when you look at the bag, when you hold the bag. Not all are, but just me- myself, I personally held a few in the past year. It's a difference one can not overlook, it's just eminent.

Quality of leather and quality of workmanship are two different things. It sounds like you've been collecting a long time and the best way to show you're displeased with the offerings is to not buy them which it sounds like you've been doing by declining bags that you aren't pleased with but I don't think H has a wholesale, overall quality issue. I have purchased three bags from the current year/last year and they are impeccable Swift and Barenia. They show signs of being handmade but not of poor quality or craftsmanship in my opinion. I still think when you handle an H bag you can see an incredible difference in quality over other brands.

Many members here are not experienced collectors so they will be pleased to get their dream bags even if they are different from bags of ten years ago.

 

[varvara]

Quality of leather and quality of workmanship are two different things. It sounds like you've been collecting a long time and the best way to show you're displeased with the offerings is to not buy them which it sounds like you've been doing by declining bags that you aren't pleased with but I don't think H has a wholesale, overall quality issue. I have purchased three bags from the current year/last year and they are impeccable Swift and Barenia. They show signs of being handmade but not of poor quality or craftsmanship in my opinion. I still think when you handle an H bag you can see an incredible difference in quality over other brands.

Many members here are not experienced collectors so they will be pleased to get their dream bags even if they are different from bags of ten years ago.

Yes, I absolutely agree with the case-to-case point and also your point of ppl getting their "dream bags", BUT

I see even the "newer" collectors wondering about the floppiness of their bags (it's been brought up not once even in this very thread). Also, I see (and hear) the H employees being not impressed by the quality lately (and some have been w the company for some years now).
I feel that we: consumers, buyers, clients- name it as you want- are less and less demanding when it comes to quality in the past years.
We just seem to be happy with whatever it is we buy, although it clearly lacks the niveau which it used to have. Even Chanel is having MAJOR quality issues. And other brands as well.
Unfortunately, I do not suspect only the different production processes being responsible for the change here in general. It is also the QUANTITY of the bags produced, which contributes to the lack of QUALITY. It is not an easy fact to swallow, but it is real.
I must come back to the bottom line here: when one purchases a leather good for over 8k Euro, it can not lack a certain level of quality. We tend to forget, that 8k Euro is a lot of money. It's somebody's life savings, or a year's salary. The fact that almost every designer thing (often RIDICULOUSLY overpriced) is costly and has its flaws, should not collide with the fact that I, as a consumer and long- time client, can raise the issue of change in quality, as I have been observing it lately.

 

[MSO13]

Yes, I absolutely agree with the case-to-case point and also your point of ppl getting their "dream bags", BUT

I see even the "newer" collectors wondering about the floppiness of their bags (it's been brought up not once even in this very thread). Also, I see (and hear) the H employees being not impressed by the quality lately (and some have been w the company for some years now).
I feel that we: consumers, buyers, clients- name it as you want- are less and less demanding when it comes to quality in the past years.
We just seem to be happy with whatever it is we buy, although it clearly lacks the niveau which it used to have. Even Chanel is having MAJOR quality issues. And other brands as well.
Unfortunately, I do not suspect only the different production processes being responsible for the change here in general. It is also the QUANTITY of the bags produced, which contributes to the lack of QUALITY. It is not an easy fact to swallow, but it is real.
I must come back to the bottom line here: when one purchases a leather good for over 8k Euro, it can not lack a certain level of quality. We tend to forget, that 8k Euro is a lot of money. It's somebody's life savings, or a year's salary. The fact that almost every designer thing (often RIDICULOUSLY overpriced) does not mean that I, as a consumer and long- time client, can't raise the issue of change in quality, as I am observing it lately.

You can raise the issue but I don't think a lot of people know the differences you're speaking about. You would need to be highly experienced in collecting to recognize it. I agree that for the money H charges one is entitled to a truly luxurious bag but your version of that is going to be different than someone else. Many people are just happy to get offered a bag and you're correct, they aren't demanding because they don't know the difference. It's nice that your store staff can see the difference in quality, most SAs don't even know the colors or leathers the way tPF members do.

The demand exists for more and more bags and H has admirably avoided going to the mass production route that the other houses have gone down which has had terrible effect on their quality. While H has added ateliers, there is still a shortage of trained craftsman and they may make more bags but never in the numbers that Chanel or LV are pushing out the door annually. I appreciate your opinion and experience with older bags, for newer collectors like myself-I only buy if I love the bag when I hold it and I love looking at details. I've never turned down a bag for quality reasons and I don't consider floppy bags to be a quality issue. Some bags look great slouchy!

There's another thread: My Opinion of H is changing that you might enjoy, it's mixed opinions on the growth, service, quality, accessibility, production since it seems like your concerns go beyond just thinner leather! Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

 

[Monceau]

Yes, I absolutely agree with the case-to-case point and also your point of ppl getting their "dream bags", BUT

I see even the "newer" collectors wondering about the floppiness of their bags (it's been brought up not once even in this very thread). Also, I see (and hear) the H employees being not impressed by the quality lately (and some have been w the company for some years now).
I feel that we: consumers, buyers, clients- name it as you want- are less and less demanding when it comes to quality in the past years.
We just seem to be happy with whatever it is we buy, although it clearly lacks the niveau which it used to have. Even Chanel is having MAJOR quality issues. And other brands as well.
Unfortunately, I do not suspect only the different production processes being responsible for the change here in general. It is also the QUANTITY of the bags produced, which contributes to the lack of QUALITY. It is not an easy fact to swallow, but it is real.
I must come back to the bottom line here: when one purchases a leather good for over 8k Euro, it can not lack a certain level of quality. We tend to forget, that 8k Euro is a lot of money. It's somebody's life savings, or a year's salary. The fact that almost every designer thing (often RIDICULOUSLY overpriced) is costly and has its flaws, should not collide with the fact that I, as a consumer and long- time client, can raise the issue of change in quality, as I have been observing it lately.

I share your concerns on the ramp up in production. Quality generally declines with a production ramp up. I would rather they focus on quality and limited production, and raise prices as needed.

Additionally, it would be better for the consumer if H did not ramp up production but increased prices instead. That may sound counterintuitive, but as it becomes easier to obtain a bag, secondary market prices decline, which means primary market buyers become more careful about their purchases as their collections lose value. One could present many case studies of other products to show this phenomenon.

The value of anything comes from two things: quality and rarity. I hope Hermes will tread tread carefully here because they could end up damaging their brand if they trade quality or rarity for increased production and sales.

 

[varvara]

You can raise the issue but I don't think a lot of people know the differences you're speaking about. You would need to be highly experienced in collecting to recognize it. I agree that for the money H charges one is entitled to a truly luxurious bag but your version of that is going to be different than someone else. Many people are just happy to get offered a bag and you're correct, they aren't demanding because they don't know the difference. It's nice that your store staff can see the difference in quality, most SAs don't even know the colors or leathers the way tPF members do.

The demand exists for more and more bags and H has admirably avoided going to the mass production route that the other houses have gone down which has had terrible effect on their quality. While H has added ateliers, there is still a shortage of trained craftsman and they may make more bags but never in the numbers that Chanel or LV are pushing out the door annually. I appreciate your opinion and experience with older bags, for newer collectors like myself-I only buy if I love the bag when I hold it and I love looking at details. I've never turned down a bag for quality reasons and I don't consider floppy bags to be a quality issue. Some bags look great slouchy!

There's another thread: My Opinion of H is changing that you might enjoy, it's mixed opinions on the growth, service, quality, accessibility, production since it seems like your concerns go beyond just thinner leather! Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

I originally created a new thread, but the mod moved it here, hence, it's here.
I agree with "some bags look great slouchy", but please try to keep in mind this may be yours (and mine too- on CERTAIN bags) opinion, but not one of all the members.
And now we are getting to the point again- many people (even on this forum) don't want their birkins or kellys slouchy after a few times of use - or- as it is happening lately- right out of their box. They love their bags to be more structured. Togo is NOT supposed to be slouchy new, and it does not matter if I am an older collector, or not. People who want the appearance of Togo with slouchy quality do opt for CT (which tends to get slouchy, but not all- my CT from 2002 is still stiff and sturdy and stands by itself). Bottom line is- Togo should be Togo, CT should be CT and Swift should be Swift. And all of these one buys because of their different appearance and quality.

 

[varvara]

I share your concerns on the ramp up in production. Quality generally declines with a production ramp up. I would rather they focus on quality and limited production, and raise prices as needed.

Additionally, it would be better for the consumer if H did not ramp up production but increased prices instead. That may sound counterintuitive, but as it becomes easier to obtain a bag, secondary market prices decline, which means primary market buyers become more careful about their purchases as their collections lose value. One could present many case studies of other products to show this phenomenon.

The value of anything comes from two things: quality and rarity. I hope Hermes will tread tread carefully here because they could end up damaging their brand if they trade quality or rarity for increased production and sales.

You said it all, nothing to add.
I do not mind paying even more for the bags (as it is somewhere up in the sky already), if it makes them more rare and better made.
They are already solving these issues, they are trying to cut back, but the train is going so fast they will need some time to reverse their own actions and decisions.
Secondary market is another topic, where nobody, who is in the know, really wants to go to.
I strongly suggest all collectors to curate their collections carefully, try to assemble first ( and older) quality pieces and try to buy at well- established auctions (such as Christie's recently).

 

[MYH]

I have noticed this too unfortunately. I actually love my older bags (circa 2009-2010) a little more than my newer ones. A few of my newer ones don't have great side silhouettes (a puddle of leather at the bottom like a muffin bottom). I actually find that storing them on their backs helps greatly. Muffin bottom disappears for a little while but after several uses, it's back. Yes, the leather is matte and kind of dry to the touch. My older togo is amazing and has a sheen and sturdiness that gives me confidence it will outlast my newer bags.

I've also seen a friends bag have a huge crease brand new on the back panel. She didn't like it much either but bought it anyway cause it was a SO.

I have another friend that bought online (safer! because you can return them) and did return several bags because their shape was lopsided out of the box. It just took the joy away from the bag and she couldn't tolerate it.

But I don't think all new bags are like this. I've also seen new bags from friends that looked great. So I basically evaluate each new bag from the boutique on a case-by-case basis. If I like it, I take it! If not, I politely decline but don't mention the thin leather or other issues I see with the bag. I feel it would be rude to bring it up. But should I say something? Maybe H will be more motivated to keep standards up if they hear the feedback from more people?

 

[varvara]

Ok, so first hand and fresh update.
I was shipped my new Kelly 35 and received it yesterday.
I can report, that the Togo on this Kelly looks like Clemence. Grains are flat and bigger, the only difference is that it's lighter. If it did not say 'Togo' on the receipt and I would not know the weight difference of Togo vs CT, I would think it's CT.
The front panel is nice, soft veining (which I personally do not mind), nice chosen and balanced skin.
The grains on the back are a tad bigger, still it's nicely proportioned, BUT the back panel has a bit of slouch already.
The stamp bleeds a bit, though placement and symmetry is ok. Wax is sealed nicely, handle's arch is very nicely done.
The sangles hang in "waves", not stiffly as they used with Togo.
The bag is matte, but this is ok with Togo, it will get the shine after some time of use.
Overall, this bag is better than what I saw lately, but still, nothing like bags even from a few years ago. I would rate it 7 out of 10. Not sure if I will keep it, which says a lot.
If this combi I wanted was not so hard do get (it was a real ordeal) I would seriously consider returning it.
I asked my SD if he sees a difference in quality etc.in the 'regular' podium orders/ stock vs the personal/ special orders and his answer was- NOT REALLY.
It depends case to case, but they note a significant changes in quality. He confirmed this.

 

[cocomlle]

Hello All -

I just got a Black Togo B from the boutique last week, but didn’t notice (didn’t occur to me to even check) the side panels and how tightly creased/pressed it is until I got home. I recalled this thread and the recent discussions regarding Togo/general leather quality issues. I have an Orange Clemence B that is nice and thick and couldn’t be creased if I tried, and an Etoupe Togo B (love which is why I wanted another Togo) from last year that seems to have a similar thickness (or thinness perhaps) as the Black Togo, but has no strong creasing.

This could be a nit, but since these are my only references in terms of the side panel creasing, I am humbly reaching out to the Forumdom for any input, thoughts, experiences on whether this happens, is a thinness (or skin or quality) issue, is normal or the result of packaging, will affect the long term use of the bag (premature creasing), etc. I appreciate your time.

Photos below, including the Orange and Etoupe to hopefully illustrate my concern.
*Please disregard kitty who apparently likes dust bags strings (obvs) and leather

 

[Tonimichelle]

Hello All -

I just got a Black Togo B from the boutique last week, but didn’t notice (didn’t occur to me to even check) the side panels and how tightly creased/pressed it is until I got home. I recalled this thread and the recent discussions regarding Togo/general leather quality issues. I have an Orange Clemence B that is nice and thick and couldn’t be creased if I tried, and an Etoupe Togo B (love which is why I wanted another Togo) from last year that seems to have a similar thickness (or thinness perhaps) as the Black Togo, but has no strong creasing.

This could be a nit, but since these are my only references in terms of the side panel creasing, I am humbly reaching out to the Forumdom for any input, thoughts, experiences on whether this happens, is a thinness (or skin or quality) issue, is normal or the result of packaging, will affect the long term use of the bag (premature creasing), etc. I appreciate your time.

Photos below, including the Orange and Etoupe to hopefully illustrate my concern.
*Please disregard kitty who apparently likes dust bags strings (obvs) and leather

View attachment 3828313 View attachment 3828314 View attachment 3828315 View attachment 3828320 View attachment 3828321 View attachment 3828322

I'm not sure this is any help, but as a comparison I took a couple of pics of my 2010 black Togo B. I don't think my leather is any thicker, there is a little creasing though.
PS. Love kitty

 

[cocomlle]

View attachment 3829295 View attachment 3829297 View attachment 3829298
I'm not sure this is any help, but as a comparison I took a couple of pics of my 2010 black Togo B. I don't think my leather is any thicker, there is a little creasing though.
PS. Love kitty

Hi Tonimichelle - Thanks for sharing! It's very helpful. Your B is so pretty. I'm thinking it's less a thickness issue for my B and maybe just the way they packaged it. Either way, I will still enjoy it.

As for the kitty, who just gave me a scratch on my forearm, thank you for your love. He's 5 months and an absolute terror along with Little Man (9 yr old DS). They are like a real life Calvin and Hobbes. My purses soothe me.

 

[AddictedtoBag]

Yes, I absolutely agree with the case-to-case point and also your point of ppl getting their "dream bags", BUT

I see even the "newer" collectors wondering about the floppiness of their bags (it's been brought up not once even in this very thread). Also, I see (and hear) the H employees being not impressed by the quality lately (and some have been w the company for some years now).
I feel that we: consumers, buyers, clients- name it as you want- are less and less demanding when it comes to quality in the past years.
We just seem to be happy with whatever it is we buy, although it clearly lacks the niveau which it used to have. Even Chanel is having MAJOR quality issues. And other brands as well.
Unfortunately, I do not suspect only the different production processes being responsible for the change here in general. It is also the QUANTITY of the bags produced, which contributes to the lack of QUALITY. It is not an easy fact to swallow, but it is real.
I must come back to the bottom line here: when one purchases a leather good for over 8k Euro, it can not lack a certain level of quality. We tend to forget, that 8k Euro is a lot of money. It's somebody's life savings, or a year's salary. The fact that almost every designer thing (often RIDICULOUSLY overpriced) is costly and has its flaws, should not collide with the fact that I, as a consumer and long- time client, can raise the issue of change in quality, as I have been observing it lately.

I totally agree with you. Luxury brands have FREQUENT price increase yearly (some even within a year!), thus, quality drop should not be compromised by the consumers.

Sadly, due to high demand, the poorer quality bags will still be sold! It's really a chicken & egg situation! Let's just hope that these luxury brands take note of consumers' complaints and really take steps in maintaining or improving the quality of their bags.