Chris Rock

Hang in there BerryDiva - and don't give up commenting - because the comments are valuable. It helps forward the discussion or at least put it out there. :hugs: A lot of it too is kind of what Chris is saying - the onus isn't on the minority to change.

Admittedly I'm in Oz, not the US but we have our own issues here as well.

Aww thanks. :tender:lol. Sometimes it just wears on you. (plus I've been dranking :tispy: so sometimes I have Betty Shabazz moments) But I think you did an excellent job earlier at summarizing the issue. I just think it's sad when people trivialize things like this be it related to race, gender and/or sexual orientation. I feel like the majority of the world's problems is simply that people don't listen to others when they say their experience in life is different or give them insight into their experience. Different doesn't make it less or more...it only makes it different.
 
As a black person, i have first hand experience where when I first started in my industry, and fellow black people only want to talk to the whites and blatantly ignore you because they feel you can't do anything for them or they think you are about to take their place. Then when you become popular, the same black people then start kissing your bum. But, they didn't help you get where you did and now they want a hand?

Not just in my industry, it has happened to both my sister and brother in their industries too.
 
As a black person, i have first hand experience where when I first started in my industry, and fellow black people only want to talk to the whites and blatantly ignore you because they feel you can't do anything for them or they think you are about to take their place. Then when you become popular, the same black people then start kissing your bum. But, they didn't help you get where you did and now they want a hand?

Not just in my industry, it has happened to both my sister and brother in their industries too.

3 people doesn't make everyone. That's taking a few negative experiences and extrapolating it to make it as if it's all. Again, if that were true for all, the hundreds (thousands?) of organizations created to support and help minorities/women wouldn't exist. All of these are created to reach back. I can point to many experiences I've had, as well as others I've met along the way, where we've tried to help others and others have tried to help us; and they did so because they were helped by someone or fought to get to their spot and didn't want others to have to experience the same fight (granted I'm speaking from the perspective of an American, as is Chris, so YMMV). I can't comment on popularity contest in the workplace because that's a shared experience that all people have which transcends gender/race; that's just human nature in wanting to get ahead. I will also say that outlook plays a big role in perception, as well; if ones outlook is negative and assume a situation will be predetermined for them from the start, they receive what they project. However, if their outlook is one of perseverance and triumph no matter the challenges, they have a whole different experience. Personally, I'm grateful to not have experienced what you're describing but I do understand how if someone has experiences like that, it can influence ones perception and expected outcome the next time around. I've definitely met people, throughout my career, who were initially standoffish or defensive. However, once I was able to get across that we have to hold hands and do this together, they changed their approach and attitude. Sometimes, people who had an experience that was wholly negative, project back that same negativity; many times not realizing they're doing such.

This is why I said it becomes exhausting because to remain positive throughout adversity is challenging and that is a universal truth.

But to blanket it as the problem with minorities is that they want to be the only one in the "it crowd" effectively states that the problem is not systematic and is something that minorities have done to themselves. Without a system of exclusion, such behaviors/experiences would be lessened and would be viewed as the individual's personality. The blanket statement removes the importance of being able to effectively articulate and educate on an oppressive system, designed though habit and learned behavior, to not view others solely based on talent and worth. It removes the ability to ask others to view merit based on ability and skill but allows them to have a scapegoat of saying "well, you're like this anyway so why should we care". The different spectrum of minorities do not experience the same plight and minorities historically help their own more than their counterparts, regardless of what the talking points want people to swallow and believe.

*taking my Afeni Shakur hat off now*
 
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3 people doesn't make everyone. That's taking a few negative experiences and extrapolating it to make it as if it's all. Again, if that were true for all, the hundreds (thousands?) of organizations created to support and help minorities/women wouldn't exist. All of these are created to reach back. I can point to many experiences I've had, as well as others I've met along the way, where we've tried to help others and others have tried to help us; and they did so because they were helped by someone or fought to get to their spot and didn't want others to have to experience the same fight (granted I'm speaking from the perspective of an American, as is Chris, so YMMV). I can't comment on popularity contest in the workplace because that's a shared experience that all people have which transcends gender/race; that's just human nature in wanting to get ahead. I will also say that outlook plays a big role in perception, as well; if ones outlook is negative and assume a situation will be predetermined for them from the start, they receive what they project. However, if their outlook is one of perseverance and triumph no matter the challenges, they have a whole different experience. Personally, I'm grateful to not have experienced what you're describing but I do understand how if someone has experiences like that, it can influence ones perception and expected outcome the next time around. I've definitely met people, throughout my career, who were initially standoffish or defensive. However, once I was able to get across that we have to hold hands and do this together, they changed their approach and attitude. Sometimes, people who had an experience that was wholly negative, project back that same negativity; many times not realizing they're doing such.

This is why I said it becomes exhausting because to remain positive throughout adversity is challenging and that is a universal truth.

But to blanket it as the problem with minorities is that they want to be the only one in the "it crowd" effectively states that the problem is not systematic and is something that minorities have done to themselves. Without a system of exclusion, such behaviors/experiences would be lessened and would be viewed as the individual's personality. The blanket statement removes the importance of being able to effectively articulate and educate on an oppressive system, designed though habit and learned behavior, to not view others solely based on talent and worth. It removes the ability to ask others to view merit based on ability and skill but allows them to have a scapegoat of saying "well, you're like this anyway so why should we care". The different spectrum of minorities do not experience the same plight and minorities historically help their own more than their counterparts, regardless of what the talking points want people to swallow and believe.

*taking my Afeni Shakur hat off now*

Miss Lady?! *bows before you* Thank you for breaking that down, berrydiva.
 
I'm so glad Chris Rock is helping others in his industry. Many minority friends and colleagues of mine in America have had to fight very hard to get were they are now. They were not helped along the way.

"Popular" means a lot more business in my field not in the petty sense like high school, please..
 
In one of the articles (it may be his essay in THR, actually), he made such a salient point about the kinds of faces that are let in, so to speak, behind the scenes. It's not enough to have producers or screenwriters or writer's assistants who are black or Latino or Asian; what about the other behind the scenes jobs?

When you look at movie credits, you see job listsings like "key grip" or "gaffer" or "sound technician" or "cinematographer," and those positions are, by and large, filled by non-minorities.
 
is that what she's saying? I'm not so sure which is why I gave her the opportunity to expound, I'm not going to make an assumption. But if it's a question of opportunities, historically there haven't been many spots to allow for multiple minorities to sit at the table so no matter how much you want to help someone, there wasn't a place for them. The other issue is that, in helping someone, you threaten your own spot, as well as future spots, because not only will the opportunity not be given to the person you wish to help but the opportunity you currently have would be taken away from you. That's been reality. I've tried very much throughout my career to help not only minorities but women as well especially since I'm in the finance field. It's not easy and never has been something that the ol' boys are willing to consider readily and openly. That's a shared experience for many minorities and women. To trivialize it as minorities don't want to help each other as the problem, not just in Hollywood, but elsewhere is clearly said without any first hand experience and without any real understanding of the difficulties. To say the least, it's arrogant and ignorant. To say the second least, it's insulting and offensive because it's from a place of ignorance.

Your example may be of one person in a specific situation but that's not everyone or all of these alliances clubs, and organizations built to professionally support minorities/women would not exist.

This thing where people assume it's that easy gets tired. Like its physically exhausting to be black in this country sometimes. Like no matter what you accomplished, you still have to hear the BS. It just becomes draining, depressing, etc. at times. And what's worse is when it's from people who aren't even in the country because that's learned which means the media has done their job.

Ugh...I need to stay out these threads tonight.

When I read it, that was my first thought, and I'm a woman and minority and thought that when I read the comment; I wasn't offended it's just at times true.
 
Wow, I thought we were handling this conversation in an adult manner, and then you turn around and got nasty with it. Thanks!

I hardly thought that was nasty but you're entitled to feel that way. Sometimes I wonder when the point is that people receive what they project vs what they perceive is a true reflection of the situation. I have a friend like that who I constantly have to play devil's advocate and everything she perceives as done to her is actually a reflection of her decision making and attitude. She thinks the world is against her at times and many times it's actually her against herself. When she comes with her woe is me, sad stories, I drill into the situation and often find myself saying something rather blunt that forces her to question/accept her role in the situation. Sometimes people really are their own enemy and not realize it....there's nothing wrong with being challenged.
 
I myself enjoy a good spirited discussion, where everyone is passionate about the subject - from such things come great ideas and sometimes a shift in thought.
 
Sad and unfortunate, but Very true no matter how much we would not like to believe it.

I can't speak for berrydiva, but what I think she was getting at is that it's not accurate to take individual experiences and say, "Yeah, this is how all of X are." It's not to discount what you've witnessed in your professional life but simply to say that isolated incidents don't prove pathology.