Barenia croc/alligator Birkin
- Thread starter Ms Birkin
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I have a Fauve Barenia alligator Roulis that I bought from an H store 5 or 6 years ago that is foil stamped.Reviving this thread as a reseller offered me this bag (Birkin 30 2015) in alligator PHW, with a foil stamp. I checked it with an Hermès expert I know, a former craftsman with over 25 years experience with a focus on exotics, and he told me that only fauve alligator bags with a blind stamp (same as non-exotic Barenia) are Barenia alligator; foil-stamped bags are not Barenia-tanned but fauve Missisippiensis matte alligator; and the Barenia form does not exist in croc (again, just the fauve matte color). This is contrary to much of what I've seen on the forum. Can anyone corroborate or deny? merci mille fois!
Thanks so much. This is also interesting because the reseller is asking basically this price, you'd think there'd be a markup.
Actually that’s not a current price. I saved this picture a few years ago. Unfortunately I no longer have a record of which bag it belongs to so I can check the stamp on the front.
2023 Kelly 25cm retourne in Barenia alligator phw.
Edit: apologies for the poor image quality from isolating image subject and pasting.
Edit: apologies for the poor image quality from isolating image subject and pasting.
wow this is stunning!!! Congrats! Never seen barenia alligator!! U r so lucky to be offered this!
An auctioned Barenia Gator B with a blind stamp.Reviving this thread as a reseller offered me this bag (Birkin 30 2015) in alligator PHW, with a foil stamp. I checked it with an Hermès expert I know, a former craftsman with over 25 years experience with a focus on exotics, and he told me that only fauve alligator bags with a blind stamp (same as non-exotic Barenia) are Barenia alligator; foil-stamped bags are not Barenia-tanned but fauve Missisippiensis matte alligator; and the Barenia form does not exist in croc (again, just the fauve matte color). This is contrary to much of what I've seen on the forum. Can anyone corroborate or deny? merci mille fois!
Yes, this is exactly the question I was asking.
Is H inconsistent in how it stamps Barenia exotics? Per this thread and the related thread, it would appear so as members have Barenia gator bags with foil stamps, but again, I was told by a craftsman that a Barenia exotic would always be blind stamped, like the above. Several members also stated that there is no Barenia crocodile, even though Christies, JaneFinds, and other reputable resellers have sold "Barenia" croc bags.
My guess is that the bags from the aughts and onward in "Barenia" crocodile and gator with silver foil stamps are actually Fauve Matte, and that "Barenia" is being used there as a color descriptor (because Fauve is associated with Barenia) and not a tanning process with those bags. Conversely, the gator bags with blind stamp from around 2010-11 and onward are actual Barenia tanning process. Barenia alligator bags with stamps on the inside, like Roulis, could have foil stamps, because that's standard for inside stamping.
I think this how it works, and why there's confusion.
Maybe @r luvs h has more intel?
(And yes, I am insanely envious of @J'adoreHermes 's beautiful new bag!)
Agreed, the blind stamp is very cool, and is supposed to be the mark of a saddle leather. This is why I would be surprised if Hermès were to mix up stamps on Barenia alligator.
FWIW, my Fauve Matte Alligator Birkin has a foil stamp, and I do not think it is Barenia. However, I have been asked by many SAs if it is.
Hi hi, just wanted to chip in here from my own research and knowledge. Blind stamp on smooth barenia is a given (as well as on porc!), and also (by right) on matte croc barenia; but some matte croc barenia did come with foil stamps. I have one (porosus) with foil stamp and have seen another on niloticus, as well as blind stamps on alligator. I wouldn't doubt mine or the nilo i saw were barenia tanned because the "smell" as well as how the colour tan forms (esp on the scales) is unmistakenly the barenia method. We won't know why and how Hermes decides which matte croc gets blind/foil-stamped, but i think thats quite Hermes, haha.
To my knowledge, your guess is correct, @QuelleFromage! This is rather confusing to explain, but here is my best shot:
Regarding the nomenclature, “Naturel Barenia” and “Fauve” refer to the same colour but from two separate eras. The name change occured around 2006/2007*. Bags made before then were sold only as Naturel Barenia, as the colour Fauve did not yet exist. Bags sold after that are either “Fauve” or “Fauve Barenia”, depending on their tanning process. In the latter case, “Fauve” refers to the colour and “Barenia” denotes the tanning process used**. The issue is that the terms are conflated, which causes some confusion (quite similar to the Bubblegum vs. 5P confusion).
As far as I know, Fauve Barenia is only available for Gator, while Fauve seems to be available for both Croc and Gator. This being said, the heat stamp variation is exclusive to Gator bags, while Croc seems to have always had a foiled heat stamp.
Given this, I would say there is not inconsistency per se, but rather different stamps depending on the tanning process used and the era from which the bag originates. Based on that, my guess would be that foiled stamps are used for Fauve Croc and Gator, while blind stamps are used only for Fauve Barenia Gator. And by the way, there are absolutely Naturel Barenia Croc bags, though they may not be literally Barenia tanned. A tad confusing, but I hope this all makes sense!
*This was the era in which Hermès changed the names of several colours, not just Naturel Barenia to Fauve. Much of this had to do with reformulations of the leather dyes used.
**A similar example to this would be Jaune Citron Ostrich vs. Jaune Citron Boréal Ostrich. In this case, "Jaune Citron" refers to the colour and "Boréal" denotes the treatment/dyeing process used. Same colour and same leather, but two separate treatments.
Edited for clarity and to say this info is based on my own research and what I have been told by Hermès craftspeople, corporate employees, and my SAs/SMs. Nonetheless, that does not mean the information is totally infallible, so please feel free to add on to this or correct me!
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Thanks so much! This is exactly what I thought…the Barenia tanning is only on the blind stamp alli bags.
Honestly Fauve Matte looks pretty much identical to Barenia. I’ve handled both, and my Fauve bag has a patina pretty similar to Barenia. It would make sense that a blind stamp would distinguish the tanned bags.
@QuelleFromage and @r luvs h
I’m not sure I’m completely understanding/following your theories. However what I do know is I 100% certainly have a Fauve barenia tanned gator birkin. It has a foil stamp. I also have a matte Fauve gator cdc. Totally without a doubt can tell the difference between the two. The matte gator almost looks shiny compared to the barenia gator. The barenia gator has like a velvety matte. Also the Fauve barenia vs the matte Fauve are slightly a different color.
I’m not sure I’m completely understanding/following your theories. However what I do know is I 100% certainly have a Fauve barenia tanned gator birkin. It has a foil stamp. I also have a matte Fauve gator cdc. Totally without a doubt can tell the difference between the two. The matte gator almost looks shiny compared to the barenia gator. The barenia gator has like a velvety matte. Also the Fauve barenia vs the matte Fauve are slightly a different color.