vegetarians with leather bags?

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#91
Roe said:
I'm sorry that you find my opinions as "sad" however that's what they are. I have read the posts. To me and others, it would be and is in fact a black and white area. True vegetarians find no interest in anything that revolves around the consumption of anything that has to do with flesh. Nor would they have any interest wearing or sporting any form of skin on them. Wether an animal was killed once and used for several purposes or many were killed for one purpose, the fact of the matter is, there was still an animal killed. Either we agree to this fact or we don't. Please tell me where there is room for more misconception?

Do we need to eat meat or use any form of skin on us? No we don't Do we choose to? Yes. Most of us do. However if you're going to label yourself a vegetarian, you should do so 100% If not, you are just like the rest of animal eating & skin wearing mortals.
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I'm sorry, but that's not always true. Some people do need meat in their diets for health reasons. Wearing animals is a different thing.
 
#92
vhdos said:
^I think that the answer depends on why a person chooses to be vegetarian. If a person chooses not to eat meat for ethical reasons, then yes, wearing leather is hypocritical. If a person chooses to be a vegetarian for dietary reasons, then no, wearing leather is not hypocritical. I don't see how if someone felt that it was not okay to kill and/or eat animals for food for moral/ethical reasons, that they could justify wearing products made by the killing of animals. That is the definition of a hypocrite IMO.
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But that is getting into the reasoning behind anybodies decisions. I was merely pointing out the the definition of a vegetarian is one who will not EAT animals, they will still use animals for other purposes so therefore if she is a vegetarian (and not vegan) then no, she isn't a hypocrit :p
 
#93
Being ethical and a steward of the environment goes beyond matters of animal-product consumption. Vegetarians/vegans who refuse to look hard at the social and environmental costs of their food and product choices have some thinking to do, too. Using tremendous amounts of fossil fuels to produce pleather, or exploiting the civil rights of farm workers in order to get your broccoli cheap: these are matters of ethics, too. It's a big conversation.
 
#94
^ Well, everything's connected.

So, you start having a conversation about the Rain Forest and end up talking about Batman; but that's, presumably, why the mods generally try to keep these threads somewhat on topic? :shrugs:

Also, I'm not sure where vegetarians have signed-up to be 'stewards of the environment' (any more than the rest of us have)?

Caring about animals sufficiently that you do not wish to consume them, or be the primary cause for their death, doesn't automatically have to mean that you are, also, particularly interested in more general environmental concerns, does it?

There seems to be some sort of attitude, where if someone pokes their head above the parapet enough to say; 'I do not wish an animal to be killed in my name.', that they should also prove themselves to be blameless saints, in every other way; which is simply not fair, or realistic.

Interesting book on this subject:


http://www.amazon.com/Why-Everyone-Else-Hypocrite-Evolution/dp/0691146748
 
#95
The thread is all about vegetarians and their ethics being consistent or not, so it's clearly in the minds of vegetarians themselves. I believe it is a complicated issue, or it should be but sometimes isn't, if certain questions are excluded.
 
#96
Good point Platinum_girly, that is the definition of a vegetarian. Unfortunately people like to label themselves, misunderstanding the true nature of the definition.

I'm no vegetarian or vegan. Never have been, never will be. I love to eat meat. I love leather goods. If you're a vegetarian because you don't like the taste of meat that's one thing. If you're a vegetarian because it's a moral issue, that's another.

If you're a vegetarian purely because you don't like the taste, then hey, you can't help what you don't like eating. Buy leather goods, and enjoy using them.
If you're a vegetarian for moral reasons(a poor animal has died to feed you/make your bag/put the seats in your car/furnished your settee's in the living room/provided the skin to make those shoes or that jacket you're wearing), and you won't eat meat but you will carry and use leather goods, I think that's very hypocritical.

The one thing I wouldn't use is the skin or fur of an animal that's been killed purely for the purpose of providing that skin or fur. That pisses me off. Cows, Sheep, Pigs, Kangeroo, Alligator, Ostrich, whatever, they're all used to provide meat as well as other things, ie; skin . It's not like part of their body is being used then the rest discarded. It's all used.

I've had people get on their high horse with me because I eat meat, citing 'an animal was 'murdered' to feed me'. Absolute boll*cks. That same person is standing there wearing a leather jacket and leather shoes with leather seats in their car. If that's the case an animal was 'murdered' to furnish their wardrobe. Bloody hypocrites.

I'm not pointing my finger at anyone here, I'm just saying what I think and what I know.
Humans have been meat eaters since day one god know how many thousands of years ago. If you choose not to eat meat, that's fine. Again, this is just from my point of view, kwim?
 
#97
jellyv said:
The thread is all about vegetarians and their ethics being consistent or not, so it's clearly in the minds of vegetarians themselves. I believe it is a complicated issue, or it should be but sometimes isn't, if certain questions are excluded.
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No, it's not, it's about whether they are hypocrites, or not, if they use leather goods.

The rest of their ethics are not in question.
 
#98
Only because the easy thing is to look at leather. It's just not fine to ask for a more nuanced discussion than the one involving animal products. That goes over like a lead balloon among those vegetarians/vegans who must believe they're on higher ground versus everyone else.

If this thread is not about ethics, then I withdraw my comments. But if it is, then I hope it's fair to suggest that this does not begin and end with animal hide.
 
#99
^ Ethics, in general, do not begin and end with animal hide.

However, where I disagree with you, is in somehow expecting vegetarians and vegans to have higher ethics, in general, than the rest of us; just because they are vegetarians/vegans.

That is unfair.
 
#100
Roe said:
I'm sorry that you find my opinions as "sad" however that's what they are. I have read the posts. To me and others, it would be and is in fact a black and white area. True vegetarians find no interest in anything that revolves around the consumption of anything that has to do with flesh. Nor would they have any interest wearing or sporting any form of skin on them. Wether an animal was killed once and used for several purposes or many were killed for one purpose, the fact of the matter is, there was still an animal killed. Either we agree to this fact or we don't. Please tell me where there is room for more misconception?

Do we need to eat meat or use any form of skin on us? No we don't Do we choose to? Yes. Most of us do. However if you're going to label yourself a vegetarian, you should do so 100% If not, you are just like the rest of animal eating & skin wearing mortals.
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Sorry, but I totally disagree with you. In your first post you talked about animal activists. This thread isn't about animal activists, it's about vegetarians. A vegetarian is someone who doesn't eat meat. That's it. Nothing else.

Animals are killed every day, the same as they have been since the dawn of time for mankind. People are Omnivores, we eat meat, vegetables, grains, that's how we evolved at least.

I've never heard of a True Vegetarian. Maybe that's where I'm not understanding you. Please read my previous paragraph again. I think that maybe you are an animal activist, and your comments are your definition of what a vegetarian should be. Unfortunately that's not what it means. There's millions of people that simply don't like meat. They are vegetarians.

If you think I'm harsh, Oh well. I'm not trying to offend you, but I am speaking my mind.

BTW, I forgot to mention, if you're a vegetarian and you also don't use leather goods, good for you. I have nothing against you at all, have a great life! My issue is with the hypocrites and fanatics, not you.
 
#101
chloehandbags said:
where I disagree with you, is in somehow expecting vegetarians and vegans to have higher ethics, in general, than the rest of us; just because they are vegetarians/vegans.

That is unfair.
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I don't believe that at all, which was my point. The issue is that many vegs are extremely up in other people's grills about their higher ethics than thou (see: PETA).
 
#103
Fact: There are vegan handbags available for those who want them.

Personal fact: I do not care if a vegan/vegetarian carries a leather bag. Not my business, or anybody's business except the person themselves.

Fact: This thread should probably be closed, as it treads dangerous personal territory and could easily cause hurt feelings.
 
#104
Um, hi. One thing we might want to pay attention before getting excited and punching "quick reply" is the date on a post. Is Roe with us any longer? Possibly in Gambia? Argentina? On the moon?

Thank you chloehandbags for your articulate and measured comments. I don't believe name-calling and "holier than thou" attitudes advance anyone's understanding of the issues at hand. Make your choices and live with them and quit bashing others for not living up to your perception of their standards.

This is quickly becoming a tedious thread. Is there a MOD at hand? Can we just agree to disagree and close this thing? I'm really starting to dislike some TPFers and that is unfortunate.

Poor Second OP--I know you just wanted some friendly advice. Best of luck with your decisions and good for you for trying to think it all through!
 
#105
Just wanted to say thankyou chloehandbags and ChaChaWeed for being some of the very few posters in this thread who didn't feel the need to get on your high horses and bash others for their decisions and label them "hypocrits" as they do not fit into your definitions of a vegetarian and their personal decisions for being so :tup:
 
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