"The Rich New York Women Who Love Their Fake Birkins" article in The Cut - thoughts?

[papertiger]

This thread is only commenting on and discussing points made arising from the article in #1 post, discussing Hermes:

For general discussion and debate on fake bags please read/post here: Why do people wear fake bags?

For a discussion on the 'gray (or grey) market: What is the gray market for HE handbags? It's not a fake...

 

[snibor]

@Tapenade

Most of us here feel that the issue and topic of the thread is that buying fake goods is not justifiable in any way (contrary to the Cut article). Many of us have digressed more widely to state our own aversion to fake goods, but the crux of the argument against fake goods is violation of intellectual property rights and laws regarding fake merchandise.

Your deflection into social justice issues, including but not limited to the following: whether we are all capitalists; our society is 100% free of low wage labor; the fakes are of good or better quality than authentic; or the merits of steak packaged by immigrants, could all be viewed as some form of a straw man argument.

Some of your posts, simply based on their tone and language, could also be viewed by others as ad hominem attacks against individual members rather than the issue of fake goods. I am making no judgment as to your actual intent, as I do not know you, just how your posts may be perceived by other readers.

You have posted that you have purchased fakes and that you have had them altered to suit your needs. In addition, you have stated that, despite there being a world of bags out there, you found it difficult to commission a practical leather tote from Etsy. At least one member suggested that your position could be viewed as a veiled endorsement of fakes. Irrespective of your intentions, the posts could also come close to advocacy of the marketing of fakes, which would violate TPF rules. I don’t think anyone has suggested that a member be banned for not spending 20K on a bag, but even the suggestion of a conduit of sale of inauthentic merchandise is another story.

Incidentally, I don’t think anyone here claims that they are buying 20K handbags because they care about labor issues. We buy them bc we love the bags. The fact that the goods are made by qualified, well compensated labor is incidental. We also buy many goods where we cannot control the conditions of workers; that doesn’t mean we don’t care. What it means is in a global economy, scale, supply and demand create inequities. Sadly, the fact that many of us use cell phones and drink coffee does not mean we tolerate poor working conditions or don’t care. By the way, the retail price of the handbags, in regular leather, is not 20K. Buying one will not help or hurt an immigrant picking strawberries.

JMO of course, and as you say, reasonable people can differ on a public forum.

Excellent post! I’m also here to say I’m a proud, ardent capitalist. The greatest invention ever which is why over a million people come to the US yearly. The land of opportunity. Off topic I know. Carry on. But great post @880

 

[Swanky]

Swanky, can you edit the link to the reddit forum? It's a direct link there and I feel should not be posted on tPF

I can if you’ll/someone will report it. I haven’t read this thread, there were a couple of reported posts, so I popped in.

 

[880]

I disagree. I think given the disdain members of this forum have for people who purchase reps, moral consistency is important. it's one thing for reps to not be your thing. it's another to accuse someone of supporting child slavery when they themselves probably do the same with the strawberries they eat

I agree with the need for moral consistency. I also think it’s a question of degree. I said on this thread that I’ve read articles that indicate well made replicas do not arise from child slavery, but may be funded by illegal gains. But that is not the primary reason why I oppose them. I don’t have a theoretical problem with inspired bags so long as they don’t have replica brand stamps or serial numbers and otherwise comply with legal requirements (intellectual property etc) mentioned in posts above. and, as I mentioned VCA never properly registered alhambra and I believe lost the case internationally. (There is a thread on TPF re the legality of replica VCA). Would I buy replica VCA for myself. No. Is it legal? I believe it is (without VCA markings etc)
If I had a friend who bought a fake in China town, I dont think I would say anything negative. I’d be uncomfortable if she tried to lie about it. (None of my friends are into bags so it’s a non issue)

Re seasonal labor for harvests, meat packing etc, there have been so many harvests in the southern US where entire crops (millions or billions of dollars) have been lost bc government refused to issue sufficient seasonal legal work vistas to immigrants to pick fruit. It was proven during those years that US citizens certainly didn’t want and couldn’t do those jobs. states also tried prison labor which failed. (basically the work was too hard and prisoners simply refused). meat packing was also too difficult for US citizens and prisoners alike.

It was also found that automated systems crushed the fruit (I don’t knew if there are technological advances in that area, but I assume it will mean higher prices). I have deep misgivings re automated transportation. Driving trucks and other forms of transportation of goods provides the most jobs for the lower to middle class men in the US. But, it’s become increasingly expensive. apparently a driver doesnt make money unitl he’s driven something like 2300 miles. Transportation is aa huge cost in groceries and other goods. Not sure what the solution should be. No one, neither the farmer nor the consumer, wants strawberries to go to 24 USD a pint.

Decades ago, political parties were somewhat united in the belief that legal protections were needed for these immigrant workers as well as health insurance and public school access for their children. I support paying more taxes to enable seasonal immigrants to do those jobs. i also pay significantly more for my local, organic produce and sustainably raised meat and poultry. All that has been forgotten in the us versus them mentality of more recent administrations. And, some of us do donate to food banks and other charities (but that is more of an offset and not a solution).

apologies for the long winded answer. I’ve also been grappling with the ethics of investing in tech like automated driving or robotics and I’m honestly not sure what the right answer is.

ETA: it seemed like the RLs were disdainful of those of us that buy authentic, as in we’re stupid to waste the money. Re the story of the wife putting her husband in thr dog house for telling the truth, I felt sorry for the husband and sad for the woman if that little incident is what made her so unhappy.

 

[Joybingebirkin]

I found the original article very racist as well (as an Asian myself). Although Asians are stereotyped as being counterfeiters and buying counterfeits, there are also Asians who spend $$$$ on the real thing. That's why Hermes and other luxury brands are growing so much in Asia. Anytime I go shopping, 90% of the people lining up outside of Chanel/LV/Hermes are Asian.

I also have a friend who peruses repladies and always talks to me about it. I'm not sure if she's actually bought a fake yet (she finds it sketchy). But I always get snide remarks like "Can't believe you dropped 10k on a Birkin when you could've paid 1k and you can't even tell them apart"). And I'm thinking, well my bag may have costed me 10k but if I were to ever sell it, I could recover the cost and then some. The person who dropped 1k on a fake can never recover that.

So I did more reading on the Reddit page and it turns out they recover their money buy selling to other Repladies for the same price. So to them it’s never a loss. @QuelleFromage is actually right, turns out this isn’t fake and the more I read in the site they do have a seemingly elaborate operation. It gets more scary the more I read into the comments and stuff. These reps don’t and arebt Just limited to bags, shoes and jewelry. Some of these people are buying rep furniture and rep art. Some guy bought a entire lv trunk rep and had it shipped to the us. Like at this point if they are so elaborate with their operations, I am going to be second guessing anything 2nd hand or anything I see on social media.

 

[EllenTsai]

I think it’s pretty sad and pathetic that these people obviously covet the look of the group of people that they claim to be looking down on them. If they were really that anti-establishment and independent minded as they claim to be they would be spending the same money on pieces by smaller houses that shows quality and unique design instead of trying to fake it.
Their claim that they are somehow more clever in spending money on cheap fakes to me screams inferiority complex stemming from wanting to be in a group that they know they would probably never be accepted in or taken seriously. (Poor VS Rich/ new money VS old money/ Tom in Succession… etc )

 

[Bereal]

I say this actually fake news. No pics of 'ladies' or their bags, no verifiable facts. No last names. The whole thing is as shady as the practice being written about. This article is a superfake.

It's still all heresy and hocus-pocus. The whole article smacks of carefully worded padding of longtime myths centred around the fake/authentic debate. In fact, it goes through the whole 'man (or woman) down pub' chat cliche after cliche. Friend of a friend, everyone's doing it, can't tell the difference, even richer/better people than us are doing it, brands are evil, branding is just a logo, luxury is a con anyway, people who buy authentic are stupid, real (authentic) rich people are cleverer than stupid wannabes, mystical Chinese factories in the middle of nowhere, Millennials do it differently, posh reseller duped.

There are fakes being sold at resellers. It's a completely different topic to the oh so fabulous mythical lives of the uber wealthy who know what's what, can buy anything, and still act like tenth graders.

There's talk of investment in their kids and crypto-currency blah blah, but then they're spending all their time researching Chinese factories and fakery. Time is usually more precious to rich people than money, and they're either into bags/designer goods or they're not. Having/wearing a fake B or LOVE or Rolex is basically telling others you can't be trusted. My friends don't want a Rolex, they want to know that every part of their watch is Rolex and contemporaneous to each other. Connoisseurs are obsessional, be it supercars, watches or handbags. Conversations are not about the products themselves anyway (unless obvious) but who do you know 'there'? What year is it? What colour is it (supposed to be)? Most rich people (at least the ones I know) would rather carry an authentic vintage Speedy than a fake Hermes, and the bragging rights in London you get from not caring about bags/brands at all is the virtue signalling conversation far outweighs a Birkin (unless it was one of Jane's). You are literally walking around areas where you meet the real thing 50-100 times a day. Having a fakes is like collecting and displaying fake Rothkos or Warhols. In NYC or in London, that would not only be seen as déclassé but being stupid/duped. Hustling fakes one by one to resellers to make a 'grand' or a buck is not something most 'oh so, so rich' people have time for, they're too busy.

The last statement is either made-up or whoever the un-named reseller was doesn't have a clue. I won't tell you why.

All I can say is the person who write this has never mingled in really rich circles. And 'Lisa and her mates' need to get a life, the more authentic the better.

Thanks for the voice of sanity. My eyes were going into my eyebrows after reading the article. I would positively be scared buying from FF or even Farfetch or any online site if this is true

 

[2cello]

I hope that’s not true for those of us who don’t live close to boutiques. Farfetch and I are tight.

 

[summer_mango]

Some people said good replicas were as good as the authentic ones at some Asian platforms. I always assume 3 things:

1.They are replica sellers.
2.They are those customers who have never touched or felt the authentic one so are unable tell the differences.
3.They were able to source the best replicas…
In my experience, I will say 90% relates to the first 2 assumptions…

Some of my friends got replicas (some over £1k) and were open about it. I have seen some of those in person and I can say as soon as you pick up the bag, you can tell it is fake if you own or have tried on a real one before…Maybe there are better ones out there that I haven’t come across myself…

 

[QuelleFromage]

There is an ethics thread which may be interesting to anyone wishing to dig into the ethics of luxury goods and H in particular (including animal issues). It's about Hermes, not about fakes. Maybe some discussion that is headed OT can go there.

I am sfb here so want to say just one more thing before I go back to lurk mode, because I do think it's important: while most of the bags I see on RL I can dismiss in one glance as fakes (although it'll pass on the street), there are handmade fakes out there using leather from Haas and the same thread and resin Hermès uses. They are very carefully made. There is a detailed video from one of the factories. I am NOT going to share the video, because it's like a step by step on counterfeiting. But it is eye-opening. There's a reason Hermes is consistently changing small details. When I have seen these bags, I have only been able to ID them from these small details, even when I am carrying the authentic. The specifics of all of this are NOT allowed here, obviously.

I only mention this because while I don't want to stress anyone out I also don't think we should all assume we could never be fooled by a replica.

 

[cakeymakeybakey]

Apparently TPF is losing our minds. Going through the replies to that comment, none of them have addressed any of the contradictory wishes. If it’s just a bag, then why not just carry a plastic bag? Clearly RL want a bag in a certain style, made with certain material, and even have the same logo stamped. Right… and we’re delusional.

Can we all say "cognitive dissonance" together?!?

 

[aabrooklyn]

Excellent post! I’m also here to say I’m a proud, ardent capitalist. The greatest invention ever which is why over a million people come to the US yearly. The land of opportunity. Off topic I know. Carry on. But great post @880

Capitalism in itself is simply a system, but it can (and has been) downright evil when human nature has come into play. The United States is a great country, but the foundation of it’s greatness comes from the capitalist murder and exploitation of millions of people. I wonder how far other countries could’ve come, if they had the opportunity/ability to almost wipe out (through disease and forced relocation) an entire ingenious population or were able to import enslaved Africans to do centuries of unpaid labor (including building the capitol, which houses the institutions that represent the freedom and opportunity that millions yearly come here for). You’re correct the reason why millions come to the US is because what it’s capitalist system has built (tragically and disgustingly on the backs and with the blood of others). Sorry for the OT, but I felt it only fair that I am allowed to respond. Now, back to the article.

The article is sensationalism, which is the Cut’s bread and butter. I have been hearing about super fakes for over a decade, so I don’t see how this is anything new. I know some are irked how this information is publicly available, but the truth is so much illegal and/or unsavory information is (think of the past controversy, how you could goolgle how to make a bomb, but not the secrets of a McDonalds’ Big Mac).

When it comes to fakes my biggest concerns are about the lack of regulation (and what this means for labor, the environment, and product safety), not so much IP theft. It’s not that IP theft (and protecting artists) isn’t important, it that the lines have been blurred so much that the whole subject has become murky and in certain instances icky. For example, when it comes to murkinesses, how can Van Cleef attempt to trademark the Alhambra (and people view of their jeweler‘s mop clover work to be copyright infringement), yet don’t see it an issue to purchase diamond solitaire rings from jeweler’s who’re not Tiffany’s, because Tiffany’s insane mark up?

When it comes to icky, there have been numerous charges that many big name fashion houses have stolen the work of small indie artists or that fashion houses have taken “inspiration” from marginalized “ethnic” communities without actually amplifying or recognizing where said traditions originate from.

 

[snibor]

Capitalism in itself is simply a system, but it can (and has been) downright evil when human nature has come into play. The United States is a great country, but the foundation of it’s greatness comes from the capitalist murder and exploitation of millions of people. I wonder how far other countries could’ve come, if they had the opportunity/ability to almost wipe out (through disease and forced relocation) an entire ingenious population or were able to import enslaved Africans to do centuries of unpaid labor (including building the capitol, which houses the institutions that represent the freedom and opportunity that millions yearly come here for). You’re correct the reason why millions come to the US is because what it’s capitalist system has built (tragically and disgustingly on the backs and with the blood of others). Sorry for the OT, but I felt it only fair that I am allowed to respond. Now, back to the article.

The article is sensationalism, which is the Cut’s bread and butter. I have been hearing about super fakes for over a decade, so I don’t see how this is anything new. I know some are irked how this information is publicly available, but the truth is so much illegal and/or unsavory information is (think of the past controversy, how you could goolgle how to make a bomb, but not the secrets of a McDonalds’ Big Mac).

When it comes to fakes my biggest concerns are about the lack of regulation (and what this means for labor, the environment, and product safety), not so much IP theft. It’s not that IP theft (and protecting artists) isn’t important, it that the lines have been blurred so much that the whole subject has become murky and in certain instances icky. For example, when it comes to murkinesses, how can Van Cleef attempt to trademark the Alhambra (and people view of their jeweler‘s mop clover work to be copyright infringement), yet don’t see it an issue to purchase diamond solitaire rings from jeweler’s who’re not Tiffany’s, because Tiffany’s insane mark up?

When it comes to icky, there have been numerous charges that many big name fashion houses have stolen the work of small indie artists or that fashion houses have taken “inspiration” from marginalized “ethnic” communities without actually amplifying or recognizing where said traditions originate from.

I stand by statement.

 

[Penelopepursula]

After reading the article I popped over to the subReddit in question. I'm amazed at how many people reviewing their fakes had never handled the authentic purse they copied. IMO 99.9 % of these reps look fake. I've seen one purse that looked authentic at a casual glance.

 

[cakeymakeybakey]

I have read and re-read the article in The Cut, and I keep coming back to this paragraph because its implications give me the chills:

"With the right contacts and social-media accounts, anyone can get a fake bag, but access to high-quality replicas is becoming more rarefied. RepLadies has, for some months now, been splintering into private social channels, where the savviest replica buyers seem to spend most of their time. Here, they can access more exclusive facets of the rep world, like its massive secondhand market and top-tier Hermès sellers, and even make custom orders with a factory."

Any other discussions will likely end up in another thread dedicated to that particular topic, but this highlighted point is the one I am most interested in -- there are numerous private social channels focused on replica bags being part of a massive second-hand/pre-loved market, and that perhaps some top-tier Hermès sellers are peddling superfakes. That's the article I *really* want to see researched and written.

 

[Noorasi]

After reading the article I popped over to the subReddit in question. I'm amazed at how many people reviewing their fakes had never handled the authentic purse they copied. IMO 99.9 % of these reps look fake. I've seen one purse that looked authentic at a casual glance.

It's worth noting though, that when you go to a replica forum you expect to see fakes. You already know. Whereas when you see obviously wealthy, elegant ladies somewhere having a glass of champagne or maybe browsing around a Hermès store, you expect them to wear the real thing. You wouldn't probably even start to question whether they are carrying fakes or not, you'd naturally assume their bags and jewelry are authentic. Which might or might not be the case.