"The Rich New York Women Who Love Their Fake Birkins" article in The Cut - thoughts?

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#197
Tapenade said:
You're claiming you're buying $20K handbags because you care about labor issues. Yet, you tolerate poor working conditions for many of the products you buy. Ergo, you don't care that much about labor issues.

There's no straw man here.
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You've entirely made up a "you" who said this stuff, so this is the textbook example of straw man baloney. Otherwise, go ahead and quote where anyone has made such statements. In addressing me, did you mean I said this? Show your work.

This is all the energy I'll expend on this OT stirring.
 
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#198
Tykhe said:
I think this person is projecting. Just because she gets her birkins from the manufacturers of fake birkins (as she admitted to doing in another post), she assumes that everyone who has a birkin must have acquired it through nefarious means. Probably a sign of a guilty conscience, ie "If I had to resort to illegal behavior to get this item, so must have everyone else!"

Also, why is this person allowed to post here? I'm sure if any of us went to that subreddit and argued with them there, they'll ban us without a second thought.
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I haven't violated the terms of service in any way. On what grounds would you ban me? Lack of "discretionary income," as another person on this thread put it? Simply disagreeing with people's claims to superior humanity based on their consumer behavior? Talking about how contemporary market economies work? None of those violate the terms of service.

And I don't have a guilty conscience at all. I've commissioned bags that don't masquerade as Hermes bags in any way. That's neither illegal nor immoral, and certainly not a violation of the terms of service here.

You just don't like my opinion. Which is fine; I'm not wild about yours. This is how democracies and public fora work.
 
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#199
jellyv said:
I mean, to the extent you've entirely made up a "you" who said this stuff, this is the textbook example of straw man baloney. Otherwise, go ahead and find this language from anyone who's made such an argument.

That is all the energy I'll expend on this OT ad hominem nonsense.
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Yeah, when I hear how your labor activism is playing out, I'll buy your claims to care about the welfare of the people who make the things you consume. Until then, I'm going to assume you buy more or less what everyone else in America does. I do not know anyone who is 100% free of goods made by low-wage workers. If you're the first one, please, tell us how you're managing it.

Also, you seem to have confused straw man and ad hominem fallacies. (None of what I said was either, for the record). You might want to review those.
 
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#200
[QUOTE="J'adoreHermes, post: 35139262, member: 623141"

Those two perspectives counter one another, yet they are linked by the common desire to build wealth and make the best investments. These luxury bags in both cases are assessed for their investment potential rather than their utilitarian purpose. Speculation fuels both perspectives. Yet, both sides want the physical bag and be seen with it whether real or counterfeit. I personally do not understand either side.

[/QUOTE]

This is such a smart insight. Thinking about the bags (rep and real) as speculative investments makes me think about whether they are also speculative investments in *social* capital. Do you think people buy them (either rep or auth) thinking they will give them access to social circles they otherwise would not be able to enter?
 
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#202
@Tapenade

Most of us here feel that the issue and topic of the thread is that buying fake goods is not justifiable in any way (contrary to the Cut article). Many of us have digressed more widely to state our own aversion to fake goods, but the crux of the argument against fake goods is violation of intellectual property rights and laws regarding fake merchandise.

Your deflection into social justice issues, including but not limited to the following: whether we are all capitalists; our society is 100% free of low wage labor; the fakes are of good or better quality than authentic; or the merits of steak packaged by immigrants, could all be viewed as some form of a straw man argument.

Some of your posts, simply based on their tone and language, could also be viewed by others as ad hominem attacks against individual members rather than the issue of fake goods. I am making no judgment as to your actual intent, as I do not know you, just how your posts may be perceived by other readers.

You have posted that you have purchased fakes and that you have had them altered to suit your needs. In addition, you have stated that, despite there being a world of bags out there, you found it difficult to commission a practical leather tote from Etsy. At least one member suggested that your position could be viewed as a veiled endorsement of fakes. Irrespective of your intentions, the posts could also come close to advocacy of the marketing of fakes, which would violate TPF rules. I don’t think anyone has suggested that a member be banned for not spending 20K on a bag, but even the suggestion of a conduit of sale of inauthentic merchandise is another story.

ETA: No one here claims that they are buying 20K handbags out of altruism. We buy them bc we love the bags. The bonus is that the goods are made by qualified, well compensated labor. We also buy many necessary goods made by workers in suboptimal conditions. It is naive to say that our purchase of such goods means we don’t care about labor conditions. What it means is in a global economy, scale, supply and demand and the push towards lower prices (and countless other factors) create inevitable inequities.

Replicas, because they are unregulated and cheaper, would certainly do more harm than high priced artisanal luxury goods with respect to labor issues. The plight of graduate students and teaching assistants at institutions of higher education is a separate issue. I’m not sure it would help anyone for me to disavow my BA or JD degrees.

JMO of course, and as you say, reasonable people can differ on a public forum.
 
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#203
880 said:
I am not an academic, nor am I particularly articulate. But most of us here feel that the issue and topic of the thread is how buying fakes is justifiable in any way and your deflection into

whether we are all heartless capitalists
or whether the fakes are good quality
or whether we eat steak packaged by immigrants

could be viewed as a straw man argument

at least one member suggested that your defense of fakes was not a discussion of the article but rather a veiled endorsement of fakes which might run perilously close to TPF regs against marketing fakes.

You have posted that you have purchased fakes. You also posted that youve had them altered to suit your needs. And, that despite there being a world of bags out there, you found it difficult to commission a practical leather tote from Etsy

ive re read your posts and they actually seem to be ad hominem attacks against other members rather than the issues.

JMO of course, and reasonable people can differ on a public forum.
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exactly this.
Why the advertising for counterfeit merch?
 
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#204
A straw man argument is where you give the impression that you've refuted a point when in actuality you've not refuted the subject at all, but instead replaced the subject with something different than what was being discussed.
Here are an example of a straw man argument:
Oh you don't approve of fakes ?
Where does your produce come from? Are you sure that some undocumented indigenous Mexican isn't picking your strawberries? How about your iPhone? Are you the one and only person who has an iPhone with parts NOT made by subcontractors with sketchy labor practices? How about your college degree? Did you somehow get an education that didn't involve underpaid adjuncts and grad students?


An ad hominem is where you cannot refute the point made so you attack the speaker. You subconsciously tell the listener that if the speaker is an idiot his point must be wrong.
Here are an example of an ad hominem argument:
You're claiming you're buying $20K handbags because you care about labor issues. Yet, you tolerate poor working conditions for many of the products you buy. Ergo, you don't care that much about labor issues.


Don't know what your goal is when you keep on harping on the labor ethics of producing fakes.
1. It's well known that Hermes employs artisans that are paid fairly for their experience and craft. While counterfeiting operations are notorious for utilizing extremely low wage labor.
2. Counterfeiting is an ILLEGAL business, involving sometimes slave labor to smuggling. It also rips off intellectual property from the very business you seem to admire being on this subforum.
3. Fakes created the need for "authenticators" in the first place. For every 10 RepLadies that buy knowing they getting fakes, theres gonna be 1 real buyer that gets sold a fake intentionally.

I don't care if you think we are on our moral high ground when we state this points. But if you still want to side with a practice that involves these three points, then....
 
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#205
880 said:
@Tapenade

Most of us here feel that the issue and topic of the thread is how buying fake goods is justifiable in any way (as per the Cut article) but many of us have digressed more widely

your deflection into social justice issues (rather than intellectual property or legal issues regarding fake goods),
including but not limited to, whether we are all capitalists; whether our society is 100% free of low wage labor; whether the fakes are good quality; or whether we eat steak packaged by immigrants

could all be viewed as a form of straw man argument

You may not agree but some of your posts, simply based on tone and language, could also be viewed by others as ad hominem attacks against individual members rather than the issues.

At least one member suggested that your position could be viewed as a veiled endorsement of fakes. This may not have been your intent, but it could also come close to advocacy of marketing fakes, which would violate TPF rules.

You have posted that you have purchased fakes. You also posted that youve had them altered to suit your needs. And, that despite there being a world of bags out there, you found it difficult to commission a practical leather tote from Etsy

JMO of course, and as you say, reasonable people can differ on a public forum.
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I disagree. I think given the disdain members of this forum have for people who purchase reps, moral consistency is important. it's one thing for reps to not be your thing. it's another to accuse someone of supporting child slavery when they themselves probably do the same with the strawberries they eat
 
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#206
Tapenade said:
[QUOTE="J'adoreHermes, post: 35139262, member: 623141"

Those two perspectives counter one another, yet they are linked by the common desire to build wealth and make the best investments. These luxury bags in both cases are assessed for their investment potential rather than their utilitarian purpose. Speculation fuels both perspectives. Yet, both sides want the physical bag and be seen with it whether real or counterfeit. I personally do not understand either side.
Click to expand...

This is such a smart insight. Thinking about the bags (rep and real) as speculative investments makes me think about whether they are also speculative investments in *social* capital. Do you think people buy them (either rep or auth) thinking they will give them access to social circles they otherwise would not be able to enter?
[/QUOTE]

Do you work?
Ever create something?
What about intellectual property theft?
 
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#209
Swanky said:
A couple of things!
1) ALL posts must be respectful
2) If you don’t care for a thread, please ignore it
3) Discuss the topic, not a member, if you have an issue with a member add them to Ignore please, or take it to PM
4) If a rule us being broken, please report it, including links to counterfeits or other blogs/forums
:cutesy:
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Swanky, can you edit the link to the reddit forum? It's a direct link there and I feel should not be posted on tPF
 
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#210
oshinex said:
This is the saddest thing ever.
I really hope this is fake.
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Agree. I don't care how much money you claim to have or have..or how you want to justify why you buy knock-offs. To me, if you buy knock-offs, you simply can't afford the real deal! (Probably you can't really afford it monetarily/mentally/emotionally..whatever hesitation you have towards buying the real deal is because you.truly.cannot.afford.it! PERIOD.
 
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