Hermès Faces Class Action Suit Over Birkin Sales Practices

My experience these days is that I go in WANTING to buy things like shoes, scarves, non-quota bags, and having a difficult time obtaining them. I've been asking for a new GP for over a year now.
Similar in the sense that items I want? They just aren’t around. And I no longer am interested in purchasing something else for the hope of being called when they're in stock and staying “on their radar.” I ask my SA and he generally IS very helpful (and has never pressured me in the decades plus I’ve been shopping with H) so it’s not impossible for the store to give me a shout if something particular I’d like is available to buy and he knows I LOVE their bags and know a crazy amount about them and the styles and their heritage lol. But as we are on TPF, my primary love is handbags - QB or not - and it does seem that ALL of their bags and SLGs are simply extremely limited compared to the past. Demand and availability - absolutely. But are people shopping for things to resell and keep their tally’s up? Yes, tying or not. I just know I don’t drop by any more (there’s rarely stock in what I want,) and I might ping my SA and will come in if he calls, but my spending with them has slowed immensely.

Can I walk into ANY other brand and walk out with any bag I want IF it’s in stock there? Yes. And that’s the discrepancy for me. I’m not as familiar with the world of watches but I think they seem to be a class to themselves - most of the watch “siblings” (Rolex, Patek etc) manage stock similarly. And until RECENTLY Hermes was the only brand that sold handbags that I know of where certain items for sale were simply not for sale unless you met some unwritten criteria, even if you were ready, willing, and able to pay for those goods right away. Throttling merchandise is interesting, I’ll be curious to see how this pans out. Still love my bags, I’d still buy non QBs in beautiful colors if they make it into stock LOL.
 
@Angiebbb, I don't think people are dismissing others' feelings, at least I hope not. The disappointment is real, the frustration is real; I have sympathy for those who've spent more money than they'd like on goods they wouldn't have purchased had they not felt that it would improve their chances to obtain an Hermes bag. But at some point they need to decide what to do with those feelings.

For a number of reasons, my own choice was to include shopping in the secondary market along with my boutique spending, and along with many other tPF posters I have recommended this option on several threads. It's not universally popular (not going there on this thread) but it is an option. I've also considered purchases from bespoke brands and may yet pursue that option. I've enjoyed my non-bag Hermes purchases, and haven't considered them in the context of looking for a bag (I nearly had a heart attack when I found out just how much I've spent over the years, not a lot for some but plenty for me). And I'd like to think that if I felt, on a consistent basis, that my SA was starting to push me to buy stuff in which she knows I have no interest, my visits to the boutique would be much less frequent (and I live out of town as it is). I'm always interested in seeing what else is going on at the boutique besides the things I'm already interested in, and when she shows me something I don't care for I'm not shy in telling her why it's a no-go. I would wish for everyone to have that same experience, but I don't think filing a lawsuit will help.
 
1. Again. I do think the case is groundless BUT I was not using that they were ambulance chasers to support that. I was using that they were ambulance chasers to refute the claim that they wouldn't have taken the case if they thought it was without merit as ambulance chasers regularly do just that.They are not intimidated by the prospect of consequences as often they don't face them and if they do, it often takes years to catch up with them. My belief that the case is groundless has NOTHING to do with my refute of the assertion above.
2. Nothing contradictory in my statement. Please show what statute demands companies must make every product available to every customer who desires it? Something being offered for purchase only to existing customers isn't "tying". Let's just pretend this is your case. Please be as specific as possible and explain what exactly is tied to that purchase.

When you say something is only being offered to preexisting customers, that technically is a tie. In essence, the seller will not supply the desired good until some other items have been purchased. There are some other subtleties depending on whether the target item is being presented as a separate item available for purchase to the general public, but the tie is still there.

If I go to Home Depot to buy a hammer, and they tell me I have to spend money on a microwave first, that’s a tie. If I buy a microwave and they then say I need to buy a sandwich, that’s a tie. If I buy the sandwich, and then they say I need to go to the store next week to buy the hammer because it’s out of stock right now, the tie remains. If next week rolls by and I go to Home Depot, and they tell me I need to go to the store in Albuquerque to buy the hammer, that’s still a tie. The distance in time and space between the build-up transactions doesn’t really matter, because the tie refers to the requirement of buying other items before being able to buy the target good.

The difference I think you’re alluding to is whether a tie is lawful. Nothing you’ve talked about, however, refutes the idea of a tie in order to buy a quota bag.
 
Some kind of direct email from SA to client is admissible. An SA telling a client, "you have to spend X to get a Birkin" is admissible, but then Hermes can challenge it saying "The SA never said it" so it's not as concrete as an email.

Evidence that is not written down is still admissible. Juries/judges are the ultimate finders of fact, and they are specifically instructed to weigh the credibility of witnesses. It is up to them to assess if an SA is lying to them, not being entirely clear, or cagey, and if the customer is telling the truth. Or in this case, if their actions/words/policies created an impression that spending was required to obtain a bag. Which IS valid evidence. For ex (hypothetical witness interview):

Atty: "Did Ms. Karen come in on Wed 12th at 2pm asking for a Birkin bag?"
SA: "I don't remember."
Atty: "Ok. But do a lot of clients come in asking for a Birkin bag, right?"
SA: "Yes, many do."
Atty: "What are you instructed at training and by your manager to tell them?"
SA: "That we offer these bags as a reward to loyal clients and that they should get to know the Maison first."
Atty: "How do you define 'getting to know the Maison?'"
SA: "Develop an appreciation for the items."
Atty: "By buying them?"
SA: "Not necessarily."
Atty: "But it's easier to develop an appreciation for the items which you own and use consistently, right?"
SA: "That's fair."
Atty: "So the best way to get to know the brand is by buying the products?"
SA: "I suppose so."
Atty: "How do you define "loyal customer?"
SA: "One who consistently shows appreciation for the brand."
Atty: "If showing appreciation means buying items, does that mean showing "consistent appreciation" is done by repeatedly buying products?"
SA: You could say that, but it can be done in other ways too.
Atty: So does this mean you do not give bags to those who do not show loyalty to the brand, which as you said, means to spend consistently?
SA: That's not what I meant.
Atty: Are you aware of your store's 2022 sales figures that show the recipient of a Birkin spends on average $15k before receiving a bag?
SA: No. but again, that's an average. Some clients spent much less than that.
Atty: Are you aware your average client whom you serve spent $18k before receiving a bag?
SA: Some were higher and some were lower. I gave a bag to one client who only bought a twilly.
Atty: I see that. But then on January 18th did you make another client buy $22k in ancillary products to compensate for that twilly customer and keep your SM happy to entertain those lower-spend bag nominations, which otherwise wouldn't be considered?
SA: I don't make clients buy anything to receive a bag.
Atty: Let's talk your commission. You don't earn it on Birkin bags, do you?
SA: No.
Atty: But you do on other products?
SA: Yes.
Atty: So, you make money when the customer shows loyalty, yes or no?
SA: Sort of... we--
Atty: Just yes or no is fine. Your corporate policies prohibit you from discussing bag offers over phone, email, text and through written correspondence, correct?
SA: Yes.
Atty: But you can verbally discuss the amount of spending required to obtain a bag, right?
SA: Verbally or written we don't do that.
Atty: So you deny making verbal assurances to customers that if they purchase certain items they can get a bag?
SA: I do.
Atty: On January 12th did you recall taking Ms. Karen to the jewelry section after she asked for a Birkin, promising her that if she bought a... ah, a $55k collier de chien pave bracelet, that she could get the Birkin she wanted?
SA: It's ok. No, I absolutely did not do that to Ms. Karen.
Atty: You didn't ask her to show committed loyalty to the brand in order to receive the bag as per your own training and experience?
SA: Not in that way, no.
Atty: So you deny that as a practice, when customers ask you for a bag, you lead them over to the metiers where you get the most commission and invite them to make a purchase?
SA: I deny. We're told explicitly not to do that. To Ms. Karen or anyone.
Atty: But then do you recall at the end of January two months later, sales records indicate that one of your other clients DID purchase that same bracelet, and you sold her a bag that very day?
SA: I don't remember. But again, that's a sign of loyalty. It's a reward.
Atty: For which you made almost two grand and for which she received the bag she ultimately wanted, correct?
SA: I wouldn't say that.
Atty: You verbally told this client that if she purchased a 55k bracelet, you'd give her a bag--just like you told Ms. Karen, didn't you?
SA: No.
Atty: So really, you sell a bag to anyone but only if they buy what you want them to, in the departments of your choosing, that make you and the company the most money, correct?
SA: No.
Atty: Nothing further.

FIN 😜

The above SA didn't say crap. He didn't have to. A halfway decent attorney takes the most recalcitrant, liplocked witness and turns them into a placeholder to ream in their main point of view. A judge/jury can then weigh this SAs responses, actions, and (most probably) sales figures/purchases of other clients whose name may or may not be redacted to see if there's a likelihood that the previous witness (who said they were told point blank told that if they bought x they could get a bag) is credible.

Hermes in turn would have the chance to rehab this witness, and put on their own more scrupulous SAs from the same store. And if you're saying this witness didn't prove tying... the nuances of what tying means, if there's a specified spend or product attached to it, and whether it applies here is exactly what the judge/jury have to determine. Again: that's THEIR job.
 
When you say something is only being offered to preexisting customers, that technically is a tie. In essence, the seller will not supply the desired good until some other items have been purchased. There are some other subtleties depending on whether the target item is being presented as a separate item available for purchase to the general public, but the tie is still there.

If I go to Home Depot to buy a hammer, and they tell me I have to spend money on a microwave first, that’s a tie. If I buy a microwave and they then say I need to buy a sandwich, that’s a tie. If I buy the sandwich, and then they say I need to go to the store next week to buy the hammer because it’s out of stock right now, the tie remains. If next week rolls by and I go to Home Depot, and they tell me I need to go to the store in Albuquerque to buy the hammer, that’s still a tie. The distance in time and space between the build-up transactions doesn’t really matter, because the tie refers to the requirement of buying other items before being able to buy the target good.

The difference I think you’re alluding to is whether a tie is lawful. Nothing you’ve talked about, however, refutes the idea of a tie in order to buy a quota bag.
Love your HD example. So please tell me what product H insists is purchased for a B/K/C? What? No microwave or sandwich type example for H? LOL. Can't imagine who was told to go to a different H store. I'm not saying it's pleasant to be on the "journey or that it isn't frustrating. But as long as there are more people who want the bags then there are bags, Hermes will have to decide who gets them, and it would be business suicide to disappoint the customers they feel are in it for the long haul, not just for the bags, then to disappoint the customers who won't be long term H customers. There is another thread on TPF asking what people would buy if there didn't exist B/K/C, and there are people who just love the brand. Satisfying the desire of those who just want to own a B/K/C because it is the in demand bag now at the expense of the customers who just love Hermes would be foolish long term. Making decisions that support their "loyal" aka intend to be long term customers isn't tying, it's good business sense.
 
Evidence that is not written down is still admissible. Juries/judges are the ultimate finders of fact, and they are specifically instructed to weigh the credibility of witnesses. It is up to them to assess if an SA is lying to them, not being entirely clear, or cagey, and if the customer is telling the truth. Or in this case, if their actions/words/policies created an impression that spending was required to obtain a bag. Which IS valid evidence. For ex (hypothetical witness interview):

Atty: "Did Ms. Karen come in on Wed 12th at 2pm asking for a Birkin bag?"
SA: "I don't remember."
Atty: "Ok. But do a lot of clients come in asking for a Birkin bag, right?"
SA: "Yes, many do."
Atty: "What are you instructed at training and by your manager to tell them?"
SA: "That we offer these bags as a reward to loyal clients and that they should get to know the Maison first."
Atty: "How do you define 'getting to know the Maison?'"
SA: "Develop an appreciation for the items."
Atty: "By buying them?"
SA: "Not necessarily."
Atty: "But it's easier to develop an appreciation for the items which you own and use consistently, right?"
SA: "That's fair."
Atty: "So the best way to get to know the brand is by buying the products?"
SA: "I suppose so."
Atty: "How do you define "loyal customer?"
SA: "One who consistently shows appreciation for the brand."
Atty: "If showing appreciation means buying items, does that mean showing "consistent appreciation" is done by repeatedly buying products?"
SA: You could say that, but it can be done in other ways too.
Atty: So does this mean you do not give bags to those who do not show loyalty to the brand, which as you said, means to spend consistently?
SA: That's not what I meant.
Atty: Are you aware of your store's 2022 sales figures that show the recipient of a Birkin spends on average $15k before receiving a bag?
SA: No. but again, that's an average. Some clients spent much less than that.
Atty: Are you aware your average client whom you serve spent $18k before receiving a bag?
SA: Some were higher and some were lower. I gave a bag to one client who only bought a twilly.
Atty: I see that. But then on January 18th did you make another client buy $22k in ancillary products to compensate for that twilly customer and keep your SM happy to entertain those lower-spend bag nominations, which otherwise wouldn't be considered?
SA: I don't make clients buy anything to receive a bag.
Atty: Let's talk your commission. You don't earn it on Birkin bags, do you?
SA: No.
Atty: But you do on other products?
SA: Yes.
Atty: So, you make money when the customer shows loyalty, yes or no?
SA: Sort of... we--
Atty: Just yes or no is fine. Your corporate policies prohibit you from discussing bag offers over phone, email, text and through written correspondence, correct?
SA: Yes.
Atty: But you can verbally discuss the amount of spending required to obtain a bag, right?
SA: Verbally or written we don't do that.
Atty: So you deny making verbal assurances to customers that if they purchase certain items they can get a bag?
SA: I do.
Atty: On January 12th did you recall taking Ms. Karen to the jewelry section after she asked for a Birkin, promising her that if she bought a... ah, a $55k collier de chien pave bracelet, that she could get the Birkin she wanted?
SA: It's ok. No, I absolutely did not do that to Ms. Karen.
Atty: You didn't ask her to show committed loyalty to the brand in order to receive the bag as per your own training and experience?
SA: Not in that way, no.
Atty: So you deny that as a practice, when customers ask you for a bag, you lead them over to the metiers where you get the most commission and invite them to make a purchase?
SA: I deny. We're told explicitly not to do that. To Ms. Karen or anyone.
Atty: But then do you recall at the end of January two months later, sales records indicate that one of your other clients DID purchase that same bracelet, and you sold her a bag that very day?
SA: I don't remember. But again, that's a sign of loyalty. It's a reward.
Atty: For which you made almost two grand and for which she received the bag she ultimately wanted, correct?
SA: I wouldn't say that.
Atty: You verbally told this client that if she purchased a 55k bracelet, you'd give her a bag--just like you told Ms. Karen, didn't you?
SA: No.
Atty: So really, you sell a bag to anyone but only if they buy what you want them to, in the departments of your choosing, that make you and the company the most money, correct?
SA: No.
Atty: Nothing further.

FIN 😜

The above SA didn't say crap. He didn't have to. A halfway decent attorney takes the most recalcitrant, liplocked witness and turns them into a placeholder to ream in their main point of view. A judge/jury can then weigh this SAs responses, actions, and (most probably) sales figures/purchases of other clients whose name may or may not be redacted to see if there's a likelihood that the previous witness (who said they were told point blank told that if they bought x they could get a bag) is credible.

Hermes in turn would have the chance to rehab this witness, and put on their own more scrupulous SAs from the same store. And if you're saying this witness didn't prove tying... the nuances of what tying means, if there's a specified spend or product attached to it, and whether it applies here is exactly what the judge/jury have to determine. Again: that's THEIR job.
Well, reads like a TV script. In real life, Hermes Attorney would object, which may be sustained or overruled based on evidentiary rulings prior to trial, because of everything stated assumes facts not in evidence and argumentative. If sustained, then the attorney looks like the fool and bully. Yes, real life would ruin the fun.
 
Love your HD example. So please tell me what product H insists is purchased for a B/K/C? What? No microwave or sandwich type example for H? LOL. Can't imagine who was told to go to a different H store. I'm not saying it's pleasant to be on the "journey or that it isn't frustrating. But as long as there are more people who want the bags then there are bags, Hermes will have to decide who gets them, and it would be business suicide to disappoint the customers they feel are in it for the long haul, not just for the bags, then to disappoint the customers who won't be long term H customers. There is another thread on TPF asking what people would buy if there didn't exist B/K/C, and there are people who just love the brand. Satisfying the desire of those who just want to own a B/K/C because it is the in demand bag now at the expense of the customers who just love Hermes would be foolish long term. Making decisions that support their "loyal" aka intend to be long term customers isn't tying, it's good business sense.
It’s still tying. Right now, it seems that you reject attempts to define or explain what tying is. Maybe you can define what tying means to you, and what constitutes a tie. Because it seems to me you have a very narrow definition where nothing any company does counts as tying.

I gave the hypothetical of buying a hammer at Home Depot to illustrate that time and space between purchases don’t remove a tie. Tying does not have be expressed in concrete terms either. Nor do they have to be consistent.

If after I bought the first hammer, I wanted to buy a second hammer, and the person at the store said I needed to buy a painting this time to get a second hammer, that would still be a tie.

If the person at Home Depot nebulously said, “You need to spend more money on other things before I can let you buy a second hammer.” That’s a tie. I still can’t buy a second hammer, except this time the spending requirements are just obfuscated.

Imagine if Cartier made it so that you had to buy non-jewelry items before they let you buy a love bracelet. Do you think that’s a tie? And then imagine Cartier’s strategy is very successful and they start selling billions of dollars in wine, bags, fashion, etc. but customers only do so to buy a love bracelet. At what point would you consider that a tie?
 
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Well, reads like a TV script. In real life, Hermes Attorney would object, which may be sustained or overruled based on evidentiary rulings prior to trial, because of everything stated assumes facts not in evidence. If sustained, then the attorney looks the Azzwipe. Yes, real life would ruin the fun.
Sure they can object but on what grounds? I generally kept to the rules here. No speculation, no heresay, it's not leading on cross, no calls for a legal conclusion... I might've compounded inadvertently. And foundation, perhaps, but I'm long-winded enough as is! 😜

Edit: and of course, this dialogue assumes that sales records are in evidence. I'm aware there can't be this, "bwaha, look at these sales figures we were sent at midnight that I'm going to spring on you in this gotcha cross!"
 
Sure they can object but on what grounds? I generally kept to the rules here. No speculation, no heresay, it's not leading on cross, no calls for a legal conclusion... I might've compounded inadvertently. And foundation, perhaps, but I'm long-winded enough as is! 😜

Edit: and of course, this dialogue assumes that sales records are in evidence. I'm aware there can't be this, "bwaha, look at these sales figures we were sent at midnight that I'm going to spring on you in this gotcha cross!"
I must say, I am impressed with the dialogue! When I prepared my direct exams for trial, I had to make sure all of my questions were supported by facts already admitted by into evidence. Also very, very important, although common on TV or criminal trials where being argumentative is more common, Federal Courts are much more formal. An attorney is in a power position in the courtroom, so it is bad form to appear to get argumentative with a SA witness who is trapped in a box. I personally would object to some of the questions as argumentative.
 
Well, reads like a TV script. In real life, Hermes Attorney would object, which may be sustained or overruled based on evidentiary rulings prior to trial, because of everything stated assumes facts not in evidence and argumentative. If sustained, then the attorney looks like the fool and bully. Yes, real life would ruin the fun.

Sure they can object but on what grounds? I generally kept to the rules here. No speculation, no heresay, it's not leading on cross, no calls for a legal conclusion... I might've compounded inadvertently. And foundation, perhaps, but I'm long-winded enough as is! 😜

Edit: and of course, this dialogue assumes that sales records are in evidence. I'm aware there can't be this, "bwaha, look at these sales figures we were sent at midnight that I'm going to spring on you in this gotcha cross!"

Hmm, I see maybe a speculation objection for the part about keeping the sales manager happy. Also, I could see compound objections for some of the longer questions.

I’ve never seen assumes-facts-not-in-evidence as an objection for cross-examination, since the scope is so much wider. I don’t think you can even raise it in cross-examination, because the whole point is to clarify the record and what was said during direct. The witness can also just say I don’t know. Kind of like how leading is only an objection for direct.

In direct, the assumes-facts objection would just entail laying more of the foundation.

In a closing argument, this objection makes a bit more sense to use.
 
i have used it and it was sustained.
Huh. Interesting. I would think relevance, improper opinion, or legal conclusion are the more immediate objections I think of for a cross-examination objection.

Well, actually, I guess I can think of the archetypal example of “Are you still beating your wife?”

I guess that assumes a fact not in evidence, but I would probably think to object to that based on lack of foundation, misleading, or argumentative.
 
I must say, I am impressed with the dialogue! When I prepared my direct exams for trial, I had to make sure all of my questions were supported by facts already admitted by into evidence. Also very, very important, only on TV or criminal trials do attorneys get argumentative. An attorney is in a power position in the courtroom, so it is bad form to appear to get argumentative with a SA witness who is trapped in a box. I personally would object to some of the questions as argumentative.
Fair. On argumentative, I'd disagree. It's one of the most subjective objections and I think it depends on the given personality of the judge--I've heard "overruled" on some seriously spicy questions during trials that another judge may sustain. Plus an attorney may choose to be more aggressive in questioning some witnesses than others. I'd say that's a matter of reading the room. Nobody wants to see a 7-yr-old victim bullied. A guy on trial for tax evasion and you're thinking the jury is buying what you're saying thus far? Fire away.

But I appreciate your and @sosauce 's input because I think it's important NOT to sensationalize the legal points of this case on either side--that's certainly not my intent with this dialogue or any of my other musings.