DISCUSS the Hermes AT Thread

[hlfinn]

I love you Jag. (ETA: I knew it was posted in response to them)

And you too Olive. Everything you said was so well put!

 

[H&H]

Sure I understand, though that works of course both ways anyhow I hope this can be put this behind us... maybe a disclaimer would help...saying that the authenticators doing this voluntarily and therefor really appreciated ? Without them the thread wouldn't function very well...Again I do hope we can move forward somehow... and the people feeling bullied... I'm sorry... It is hard as we sort of 'know' each other... so for someone else it may be bullying but I think O it is such a so ... everyone is different....

o well my English is just terrible (and that is often a problem too....not everyone speaks English as the first language )

 

[hlfinn]

h&h I actually think your english is wonderful- always have.

seriously though- i read the at thread a bit and don't most people thank the authenticators regularly? i understand their being upset now and over some things that have happened but generally- when people ask for help don't they usually say thank you?

 

[H&H]

Hlfinn they usually do...since couple days something happened... I have not read it and I really don't want to either... But I do understand the authenticators feel of attacked... I don't see them personally as bully's at all... they may have made a mistake...but not on purpose and intentionally were setting out to make people feel unwelcome, and that is my opinion..

Some people who come in are a little thingie...is it or not and why is not someone answering and if the answer comes... then why ? etc.etc. after a while I guess it is tiresome.... I suppose maybe the best is to take a break once in while of it not to get too upset by it.

 

[dressage queen]

Everyone here is human. We will all misunderstand, judge, jump to conclusions, be short-tempered, be helpful, gracious, giving, humorous, etc at times. That is what makes us all individuals. There has definitely been some misunderstandings in my opinion.

The past page or so here has seemed geared toward specific members, and I was not thinking this thread would go there. The personal issues can be handled privately, and I am actively looking into that. But we all need to be open minded about solving problems, not to continue pointing fingers.

I want this thread to remain open, but it is going circular now rather than forward... any chance we can get it forward again?

here's my suggestion (ain't i just full of them?) - there's never going to be a concensus on this, so let's call the who was mean to whom part over with, fini, done, kaputski. human nature being what it is, we're bound to have little brouhaha's from time to time, but let's agree that we're we're all adult enough to move on after one. i would also respectfully suggest that the community should try to understand that authenticators are zealous which may lead to some bluntness - but that said, i also accept being reminded of boundaries when they're crossed. if that could be done with as much respect as is in turn being requested, i think everyone will co-exist with much more felicity.

and i would further suggest maybe continuing this thread with just techinal suggestions on how to improve the functioning of the AT forum - i think there are a lot of good ideas in here, but they're buried in the drama.

JMHO - your milage may vary.

 

[Kellybag]

A large part of this is respect on each and every side. New members must be respected...authenticators need to be...mods need to be....it is a complete circle here.

The mods can step in, but all members need to listen and respect us and this just does not happen. We will never have a smooth forum and threads that run nicely for all, if people can't respect each other.

 

[Perigord]

i think it's mostly the latter rather than the former. i presume there is little incentive for them to participate in this thread where the criticism continues - what's the point? a single unpleasant instance has lead to broad, sweeping and hurtful generalizations and characterizations. they're already hurt and discouraged, and to continue reading about how some people think they are rude, unwelcoming and unpleasant is just rubbing salt in their own paper cuts.

they're smart birds - i'm sure they GET that some think they were over-zealous in their response. as a some-time authenticator i want the community to GET that we are passionate about stamping out the fakes and, being human, from time to time we may over-react. given all that's involved in authenticating, i'd like to be cut a little slack in return when it does, inevitably, happen. all that was needed in that exchange was a simple "ladies, please play nicely on the chance that posters really are innocent and not scammers."

I agree utterly. People ask why they left. I think there was a defining moment, and it occurred when a post was made that defined their behavior as sarcastic and bullying, and them as vigilantes.

A simple "ladies please" would have worked well, without initiating the very sad and divisive process that followed.

Authenticators straddle a funny line. Like all of us, they are participants and guests here on a wonderful forum. In another sense, they are unpaid volunteers, providing on a regular basis the time-consuming services that allow the AT thread to be as reliable and solid as it is. At its best, that thread is a smart, funny, and above all informative draw--the place many of us head for first thing as we fire up our computers. But I have to ask myself--if I were a volunteer for an organization and my manager called me a bully and a vigilante (not once but more than once), would I return the next day? I don't think I could--the message would be on the wall for me. And I guess I am a little too thin skinned for my own good. I would be hurt, certainly.

I never objected to the right to deliver a message, in order to call attention to behavior when there were objections. It is the absolute right of Vlad and Megs to create the kind of environment they find appropriate, and to ask the mods to intervene. I simply objected to the tone and the words--I found them disproportionally powerful, less constructive than they could have been, and I feel they escalated what could have been a simple correction into something that went pretty badly wrong. At this point, a PM discussion between the parties would, in my book, be the appropriate way to go. I would encourage this so heartily!

Let me say on a very positive note--Jag--when you ask for us to correct something, it is very often done with humor and affection. You can correct me anytime.

Enough said. I am going to head in a positive direction and make my own (simple) list of points for the new thread. My goal--a funny and strongly pertinent thread with not too many rules and some simple smarts in the structure and requirements--and tons of understanding and affection for newbies and oldies alike (is that the right word) when they inevitably ask the wrong question...ask the wrong question too many times...have no idea that there IS a format...or use a little wicked humor when describing a particularly gruesome fake.

Thanks everybody.

 

[Megs]

I just wanted to add one more thing about this situation, and then yes, let's move on toward making the new thread set up in the way we would all like and think would be the most helpful.

As a moderator of this board, about 300-500 reported posts fill our emails every day. The most helpful thing to us is a detailed message with the reported post. Obviously saying something is Spam will suffice, but if it is a different situation, like someone being rude or a troll abusing the community, we can do much better with a more detailed reported post.

We received at least 10 reported posts about the last few pages of the AT thread. At least 10 other people did not get what was going on, and at least 10 other people found it completely rude. Without knowing the entire story, we will step in and say to be nice.

I still want the members to come to us when they think someone is a troll, or a scammer. We have never had the stance that members should try to unravel this in public. And in certain situations, it makes the members look very rude even if they are simply looking out for the community and trying to get rid of those trying to take advantage. That is just a total lack of communication and understanding of other's perspectives and points of view, which will happen often online.

Ah, I could say this so much better in person to you all. A large video conference. But that would freak me out and is just not going to happen! The point is, I think many if not all parties were misunderstood. I am not saying that only one side was, I truly think all were. It is time to realize that and just try to move on. I will continue to try to talk to those affected via PM and if you would like to talk to me about it, please feel free to PM me. I won't bite

 

[dressage queen]

Hlfinn- our posts crossed. This was in response to ardneish and DQ's posts.

Well wait a minute.

I have had to post warnings in the AT thread, and elsewhere, that have said just that - please play nicely. And you know- the fact is, the warnings are often ignored. We can only do so much, and we try to do our best.

But I think everyone needs to understand that this was not merely one event, nor just one poster. Rather, I have received numerous PMs from members on both sides of this issue, and many who are afraid to participate and post their feelings or even participate in the AT thread because they have been made to feel unwelcome for whatever the reason. AND IN EVERY INSTANCE, I try to encourage everyone to be respectful, treat others the way they want to be treated. I say that pretty uniformly and when I have to say more, I do no matter how much I love the people i am warning. That is my job as a mod. It sucks sometimes, but I do it because even though I have to be the "bad guy" sometimes, it helps the overall community. So I do it.

As we have seen before in other subforums here, sometimes we all need to take a step back and get perspective so we can figure out how to make things better. I for one am taking that opportunity now so that I can make sure things run more smoothly here and everyone feels welcome to participate. I hope everyone joins in the positive discussion together!

j, i can't imagine doing your job - is it like trying to herd cats? if i'm being critical of some of the forum moderation, it is still with utter admiration of those of you who take on the task (), as well as an appreciation of the fact that a group of people will never agree on all things at all times. clearly many people approve of the approach that was taken. my own opinon is that a different one may not have engendered the same reaction - i wasn't involved in the incident, but if i had been i suspect i would be feeling hurt and wondering why such a vehement response rather than a less harsh reminder. i thought it was important to present this perspective, and i've tried to do so in a way that way that was neither unappreciative nor disrespectful. if i haven't hit that mark, then i apologize - the last thing i'd ever want to do is hurt your feelings. and i know i suggested leaving all this discussion behind, but i really wanted to make sure the moderators weren't left feeling unappreciated.

as for this not being a single incident and people feeling unwelcome - i find that to be the most disheartening point. i really don't know why people would feel that way, and so haven't got a clue what would need to change to make it better.

 

[dressage queen]

Ah, I could say this so much better in person to you all. A large video conference. But that would freak me out and is just not going to happen!

i think you should go for it, megs - you could get a new outfit, have your hair and nails all done, maybe even a massage to deal with the pre-conference and post-conference tension . . . and write it all off as a business expense!!!

 

[Perigord]

Originally Posted by Megs
Ah, I could say this so much better in person to you all. A large video conference. But that would freak me out and is just not going to happen!

Oh nooooooo!! This is not good at all!!! I would have to lose the bathrobe (meaning I will need an appropriate outfit...NOT that I will be clothes-less), dig out the makeup, and lose a bunch of pounds in short order. I am not up for this!!!

 

[Megs]

i think you should go for it, megs - you could get a new outfit, have your hair and nails all done, maybe even a massage to deal with the pre-conference and post-conference tension . . . and write it all off as a business expense!!!

Maybe it would help with my stage fright????? My utter hate of having a conference in front of a large number of people... cringe. Bringing me back to the college presentation days! I was always sick for those

I have my final thoughts, not forgetting the thread, but will gather those and post in just a bit

 

[Megs]

I think we have left this thread open for some time now, allowing as many parties who wanted to voice their opinions the chance and platform to do so. In order to move forward, I think it is best we close this thread and try to move on.

With that being said, I do not mean we are sweeping this under the rug. All of the concerns and issues are being taken very seriously by Vlad and I. We have thought it all over, talked about possible fixes, and tried to figure out how best to go forward.

I want you all to know that we value all of the members of our forum. This has grown from a very small community to a huge active forum, yet it keeps an amazing member base. All of our members provide the forum with different insights, information, and passions.

One of our biggest rules is for everyone on the board to be respectful to one another, that includes Admins and moderators. We are all only human and we all do not express ourselves the same way as others. But we want to give you all what we want to receive. We want to give a great community with respect and want to receive the same thing.

The mod team and Vlad & I have come up with some ideas to better the AT thread for Hermes. We are going to get working on that tonight, so it can show up this weekend for all of you.

In the mean time we are open to PM's. Please feel free to PM me. I am busy, but will get to each PM as quickly as possible . Also you can Pm any of your Hermes mods (Jag, kellybag, and H_addict), or contact the mod of your choice with any issue.

Lots of to you all - we want to make this place a friendly, knowledgeable, and FUN place for all involved!! Thank you for sharing with us, and please continue to do so. It only helps!

Have a great weekend and Happy Friday!