CITES, travel and exotics

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#31
I found it ... Appendix II Struthionidae Ostrich


Struthio camelus (Only the
populations of Algeria, Burkina
Faso, Cameroon, the Central
African Republic, Chad, Mali,
Mauritania, Morocco, the Niger,
Nigeria, Senegal and the Sudan;
all other populations are not
included in the Appendices)


"International trade in specimens of Appendix-II species may be authorized by the granting of an export permit or re-export certificate. No import permit is necessary for these species under CITES (although a permit is needed in some countries that have taken stricter measures than CITES requires). Permits or certificates should only be granted if the relevant authorities are satisfied that certain conditions are met, above all that trade will not be detrimental to the survival of the species in the wild."
 
#32
bbbochap said:
My last ostrich birkin from FSH was in March'09 - as I had it shipped to me, I was told that the certificate of origin (aka CITES) was meant to be for one-time use, for customs reference.

I also did not get a certificate of origin when I got my ostrich wallet from FSH.
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Yes ... it even has a validity date to it. And mine has expired within a month of owning my fuchsia ostrich in 2007!

I am getting a sense that things are done differently from country to country. Like DQ has suggested, the CITES interpretation and enforcement is not the same and customs officials may be muddled about CITES. And perhaps to play safe, they look for a piece of physical evidence citing what species it is, be it the CITES or Certificate of Origin.

Maybe over the past 2 years, Hermes may have even changed its source of Ostrich, just so to do away with CITES for its ostrich???? I don't know ....
 
#33
oh, mrsS, i'm so sorry to have made you wake your sleeping birkin!

but how bizarre! because struthio camelus from south africa isn't one of the populations listed as covered. my ostrich kelly was same species and population as your birkin (SC from SA), and came with a certificate of origin rather than a CITES certificate. go figure?

by the way, i've been told that when CITES refers to certain populations, it's meaning the wild animals in those regions - which is why i said that farmed ostrich shouldn't be subject to CITES. but that's actually not something i've looked into myself, so i should have said that i can't vouch for the accuracy of it - it may be that even farmed ostrich in those countries would require CITES compliance. but i thought that in any case it shouldn't require CITES documents because south african ostrich, which i understood was what hermes used, isn't subject to CITES.

oh, well - i suppose it's all academic. the bottom line seems to be that documentation of some sort comes with ostrich, croc and 'gator and if you can get a copy it's good to have it if you're taking it out of the country.
 
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#35
mrssparkles said:
^^ DQ, I am sure it's the non-legals that confound things! I must also be adding to the confusion!
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lol, no not at all -

treaties are notoriously difficult to read, and i am by no means an expert! also, just because a country is a CITES signatory doesn't mean that they don't have their own, separate regulations regarding the import of endangered species. i think the US regulations say that a US resident shipping her own personal effects back from overseas does not need CITES documents for five for fewer reptile items. which is nonsensical, since CITES only addresses commercial transactions - but i'm sure we have to comply with it anyway!
 
#36
Wow, thanks for the info, DQ! :flowers:
I never knew the technicalities behind CITES... I have learnt a lot from this thread.

I think it's just better to travel with CITES... for lay people and experts alike it just makes things so much easier.
 
#37
pyrexia said:
Wow, thanks for the info, DQ! :flowers:
I never knew the technicalities behind CITES... I have learnt a lot from this thread.

I think it's just better to travel with CITES... for lay people and experts alike it just makes things so much easier.
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I agree, but my question is still, if Hermes don't supply any documentation, how do you obtain it and who from.? I don't want to buy bags that I am apprehensive about travelling with because I havent got any documentation to suuport them.

TIA -Sorry if I have missed this answer somewhere in the thread
 
#38
Ms Birkin said:
I agree, but my question is still, if Hermes don't supply any documentation, how do you obtain it and who from.? I don't want to buy bags that I am apprehensive about travelling with because I havent got any documentation to suuport them.

TIA -Sorry if I have missed this answer somewhere in the thread
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The long and short of it - If the ostrich skin is from South Africa, like DQ's and mine, then you don't need a CITES.

Travelling with exotics is a pain. That's an honest truth. Because you just don't know if you will meet an overzealous custom officer who demands to see documentation when it's not needed.
 
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#39
mrssparkles said:
The long and short of it - If the ostrich skin is from South Africa, like DQ's and mine, then you don't need a CITES.

Travelling with exotics is a pain. That's an honest truth. Because you just don't know if you will meet an overzealous custom officer who demands to see documentation when it's not needed.
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I see, so when I collect my bag, the store should give me some sort of documentation to prove where the skin is from? I will make sure I ask for this.

Thanks again:hugs:
 
#40
Ms Birkin said:
I see, so when I collect my bag, the store should give me some sort of documentation to prove where the skin is from? I will make sure I ask for this.

Thanks again:hugs:
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erm ... if you are more comfortable with some documentation, I think you better ask the store ahead of time, to prepare a certificate of origin for you. And make known to your SA that the purchase of the bag is contingent on getting that piece of paper, because you do not wish to be inconvenienced at customs whenever you travel.

And if the SA will not provide it to you .... then you have got to decide if you still want the bag.
 
#41
mrssparkles said:
erm ... if you are more comfortable with some documentation, I think you better ask the store ahead of time, to prepare a certificate of origin for you. And make known to your SA that the purchase of the bag is contingent on getting that piece of paper, because you do not wish to be inconvenienced at customs whenever you travel.

And if the SA will not provide it to you .... then you have got to decide if you still want the bag.
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perfectly said mrs and alos DQ thanks for laing it out again we should make a cites thread a sticky or put it in the refernece library as those questions pop up from time to time

but yup technically one would alos need a cites for any transaction after the original one (aka resellers etc) it is quite complicated BUT in reality noone at customes is that well versed with it the mainly just want some proof that the item you got is not from an endangered species how it was obtained etc.

i once got a chance to visit the customs "curiosity cabinet" and boy there you find truly horrible pieces like handbags with the croc head still on it etc etc. shudder. all of these seized due to no proof where it came from and so on

another point is and this time it is a plus that hermès is more famous than it was years ago.when travelling a h exotic with proof of not only the cert but also a receipt will avoid any further questions most of the time . you can get mor trouble with an exotic from a lesser (unknown) brand than with H
this of course is only my experience
 
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#43
Ms Birkin said:
I agree, but my question is still, if Hermes don't supply any documentation, how do you obtain it and who from.? I don't want to buy bags that I am apprehensive about travelling with because I havent got any documentation to suuport them.

TIA -Sorry if I have missed this answer somewhere in the thread
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i've been told, though i don't know from personal experience, that hermes can get a new CITES certificate issued for you. i think the way it works is that they prepare documentation and submit it to the appropriate regulatory authority (fish and wildlife in the US), and it comes back from them all stamped and official. i suspect this is something more easily done at a country's flagship store, since they'd be doing it on a fairly regular basis as part of shipping exotic items and presumably have a relationship with the relevant officials.
 
#44
so i am confused. i don't have any documentation for my 35 ostrich birkin that is probably at least 10 years old and i was going to take her this friday to england and france with me. what should i do. risk it, call an H store and ask them to send my something. ask anyone to send me a copy of anything related to ostrich since the customs people won't know anything, or just tell them it's pressed leather if they ask
 
#45
sorry if this has already been discussed but I am waiting for a cites certificate for an exotic bag to come from paris (the copy was lost and im now waiting for another copy from paris) - out of interest what actually happens if you travel without cites (with an exotic)? do customs check every exotic bag they see? do they confiscate anything that is without cites or could you explain its hermes etc??? TIA:smile1:
 
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