Chanel’s Rise & STALL: Defects, Difficulties & Deflection (formerly the 19 tote saga thread)

[papertiger]

+1 with @HauteRN

@gail13 , @papertiger ,

The wertheimers ‘forgave’ chanel and I thought supported her for the rest of her life bc it was great business practice to do so. Like it or not, her imprint lends value to the Brand. And, for all of the wailing re standards slipping on bags or RTW, that’s true of many premier brands. Chanel is hardly alone.

After all this, I’m embarrassed to say, I haven’t entirely ruled out the 22 bag.

The 19 tote that I handled at the boutique also looked good, but I don’t really even use the totes I own.

I go back and forth as to whether or not to hunt up a GST at resale. I remember it as being THE mom bag of its day as well as being really amazing quality for a relatively low price. It’s just that it’s so aggressively caviar, and I’m not.

Big shoppers are going HUGE - and that's all I'm saying I used to have it but swapped it for a Gucci (my mother's lizard MTO 'Padlock'). I can't even remember why I didn't like it ir it didn't work for me (I think I got a lot of attention and wasn't living in a great part of town). Archive posts may tell you.

Don't be embarrassed. Romina admitted she loved her metallic 22 even though she thought it defective. I like the look of the 22 (I liked the Gabrielle too - which I also didn't buy) but there's really nothing to that bag (22) so I'm not surprised it doesn't stand up to much. Not sure about the letters on the front either (for me). However, I don't even use my backpack, and when I do it's over one shoulder so maybe I almost have that bag anyway, I should shop from my own closet.

 

[Liberté]

Am not surprised if make-up/beauty accounts for more than 50% of profits. Having some insight into fragrance & beauty businesses, the margins on this business line is insane. It used to cost 8 cents to make a MAC eyeshadow SKU (including all packaging) vs the $15 retail price. Hence why more and more fashion houses, like Hermes, Gucci, Burberry, have been coming out with their own beauty lines the past few years, you cant ignore those lucrative margins

Hermes, Chanel and LVMH and I believe some Kering brands to used to make extensive use of subcontractors and certainly do still. Kering brands did show up in the documentary CASH INVESTIGATION: LUXURY: BEHIND THE MIRROR.

There were articles after the financial crisis saying that the (French) subcontractors business were suffering, even if the luxury groups were showing great results in the market, it was implied volume was down and prices went up, which left less work to be contracted out and less money to be made for the subcontractors. Great for the owners of the big luxury groups, not so great for the smaller businesses and their employees.

But in some cases I think there's a sort of grey area where a subcontractor more or less has one or two brands as clients, the materials are provided in parts by the client and the quality control is also more or less determined by the client.

About the margins on some of the items. There's actually quite a lot of information available in European media about this topic, especially in French media and some can be deduced from financial reports from the brands. In an article from 2015, one of the heads of one of the French subcontractors mentioned that he made belts at the cost of 7 euros, sold them on to either Hermes LV or Chanel for 39 euros, which sold them to the clients for 750 euros. There was also a documentary about the miracles of LV and their business model where they visited the factories and showed an estimate of how much of a bags is pure profit.

I just wanted to highlight that the names thrown out in this thread are not fashion houses anymore. They are brands being brilliantly marketed to new money.

I think this is important to keep in mind. The brand isn't dependent on any physical aspects of the business such as continued tradition, craftsmanship or heritage other than some carefully selected visual cues and stories. Which is why we see the successful revival of so many French heritage brands these days such as Patou and Schiaparelli or maison violet.

 

[Swanky]

Hey friends, lets get back to topic and kindly take any personal issues to PM or agree to disagree and let it go.

 

[TPFer2015]

Hermes, Chanel and LVMH and I believe some Kering brands to used to make extensive use of subcontractors and certainly do still. Kering brands did show up in the documentary CASH INVESTIGATION: LUXURY: BEHIND THE MIRROR.

There were articles after the financial crisis saying that the (French) subcontractors business were suffering, even if the luxury groups were showing great results in the market, it was implied volume was down and prices went up, which left less work to be contracted out and less money to be made for the subcontractors. Great for the owners of the big luxury groups, not so great for the smaller businesses and their employees.

But in some cases I think there's a sort of grey area where a subcontractor more or less has one or two brands as clients, the materials are provided in parts by the client and the quality control is also more or less determined by the client.

About the margins on some of the items. There's actually quite a lot of information available in European media about this topic, especially in French media and some can be deduced from financial reports from the brands. In an article from 2015, one of the heads of one of the French subcontractors mentioned that he made belts at the cost of 7 euros, sold them on to either Hermes LV or Chanel for 39 euros, which sold them to the clients for 750 euros. There was also a documentary about the miracles of LV and their business model where they visited the factories and showed an estimate of how much of a bags is pure profit.



I think this is important to keep in mind. The brand isn't dependent on any physical aspects of the business such as continued tradition, craftsmanship or heritage other than some carefully selected visual cues and stories. Which is why we see the successful revival of so many French heritage brands these days such as Patou and Schiaparelli or maison violet.

Oh yes, good point wrt sub-contracting and esp for fragrance, most actually do outsource to a white label manufacturer and distributor. We used to do so for brands like Hugo Boss (some, not all their perfumes) and Ferrari/non-fashion brands. Brands either get a fixed royalty or % of each SKU sold.
Other than Beauty, some RTW is 'outsourced' (notice that I am using the term a lot looser here). For e.g. my buddy supplies the cashmere and (I think) makes some of Chanel & Hermes' cashmere-wear too. He has his own small brand too, and keeps the nicer quality threads for himself FYIP also that he sources a lot from China, and its lovely cashmere.

 

[gail13]

About the margins on some of the items. There's actually quite a lot of information available in European media about this topic, especially in French media and some can be deduced from financial reports from the brands. In an article from 2015, one of the heads of one of the French subcontractors mentioned that he made belts at the cost of 7 euros, sold them on to either Hermes LV or Chanel for 39 euros, which sold them to the clients for 750 euros. There was also a documentary about the miracles of LV and their business model where they visited the factories and showed an estimate of how much of a bags is pure profit.

Thank you, this goes to my point that cost is not reflective of quality.

 

[ntntgo]

@TraceySH Thank you for starting this thread and sharing the issues you’ve had with your bags in this forum. It’s sad that someone who seems to spend so much money with the brand has experienced such little satisfaction.
Regarding the post from @Swanky I agree that this has gone off the initial subject.
So to her point, I’d really like to see pictures of others who have had 22 or 19 tote quality issues. Please post only your pictures. Not links to other people’s videos or repost of other people’s bags without their permission.
I have a 2 quantity 22s, one a backpack and one the shoulder bag, that are paid for and I’ve asked my SA to hold off on sending them.
Thank you to those who have provided insightful, respectful commentary.

ETA: If anyone can point me to any existing threads that are regarding other Chanel quality issues, and any thread about the Wertheimers Mousse Partners of which Chanel falls under, would be so appreciate.

 

[zaraha]

I wish someone with an insiders background in the corporate growth and branding of premier fashion houses (as opposed to luxury ) could chime in I was scrooging around on line and making up key word searches to see if there was, for example, an HBS case study pie chart somewhere lol.

i did come up with the factoid that the chanel global CEO worldwide is now a unilever executive. The blurb emphasized that the ceo did not have a fashion background but rather product. And different fashion houses have different emphasis on business models (why some reserve in store experience for high paying individuals, and therefore don’t sell RTW on e-commerce, whereas others have diffusion or bridge lines that might sell t shirts on ecommerce.

also chanel recently purchased a leather manufacturing in France

ETA: I assume it’s safe to post objects here on TPF (in terms of risk assessment for IRL theft,
if you are not otherwise on social media. And disable geo locator, IDK

BTW, re chanel items that are overly distressed to the point of unreasonable wear on a New retail piece. When I grumbled to my very experienced SA in 2003 about the excessive distressing on the sleeves of my brand new croc printed fabric jacket, I specifically complained about the fact that the material might develop holes in the course of normal wear. It’s the on,y time I can recall asking if there was another item to compare it to. She said they were all like that. She said this was brought up in the manufacture, and KL specifically said that this was not an issue for him; he actually said his clients, the very wealthy, who may only wear an item once, would not care. So, i can easily see him stating the same about a bag. Given this attitude, I am not certain he would care if a bag peeled after a few months or weeks of wear.

Your croc embossed outfit certainly seems like a quality issue. Could be thin leather they used with stamped leather made it more vulnerable but so sorry this happened to you. My croc embossed leather tote from 2019 collection, held up well I have minor wear on corners but it been thru airplane, floors, counters, heavily stuffed with laptops, jackets books, shoes at time .

 

[sjunky13]

I have been reading this thread with great interest! This is not new for Chanel in any way!
This crappy leather all started about 2010. Does anyone remember when the "In business '' ligne came out?
The classic prices had just seen a huge jump, we were all upset , here came a classic bag style that looked like a flap. It was priced about $2250 and the vinyl one about $1850. The Chanel forum went crazy with purchasing it! People wanted the classic flap look, but not the price.
I spoke with a long time Chanel SA who told me it was the worst made bag ever to be made. The leather was pounded extremely thin and stretched out , then placed on terrible cardboard. Needless to say, the bags started wearing very poorly. The same with the Chevron statement bag made about 2018.

I love Chanel, the look is my favorite and the classic flap is my favorite. I also have purchased tons of seasonal bags over the past 18 years and some were made fabulously! The flaps, I still think those are made quite well and maybe a bit better that my older single flaps to be honest. They really improved the quality ime. I also think the Trendy CC is made extremely well.
The coco handle is made terrible IMO. It looks and feels not up to luxury standards. It is for sure not worth the price.

As for the bonded leather, it would not surprise me at all. I have ben saying for years and years Chanel is a fashion house. Not luxury.

 

[zaraha]

This thread should be renamed to something to the fact “chanel history then and now, inside scoop“ and added it to library ha ha.

Lots of great information! And I’m seeing lots of OGs chiming in with their knowledge as well. I keep taking screen shots on all the new things I’m learning about chanel from valuable members. Great work!

 

[TraceySH]

This thread should be renamed to something to the fact “chanel history then and now, inside scoop“ and added it to library ha ha.

Lots of great information! And I’m seeing lots of OGs chiming in with their knowledge as well. I keep print screening all the new things I’m learning about chanel from valuable members. Great work!

Agree! What started as a gripe turned into an encyclopedia!

 

[880]

Your croc embossed outfit certainly seems like a quality issue. Could be thin leather they used with stamped leather made it more vulnerable but so sorry this happened to you. My croc embossed leather tote from 2019 collection, held up well I have minor wear on corners but it been thru airplane, floors, counters, heavily stuffed with laptops, jackets books, shoes at time .

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Thank you so much. no need for concern. In 2003, my RTW wasn’t croc embossed leather, but coated fabric. And it was very clear KL was going after that super distressed look. interestingly enough, it basically looks the same as the day I bought it, so it’s held up relatively well. I didn’t bring it up as an example of complaining about quality. It was more my SAs response re KL that was interesting. And, she was very knowledgeable (and went on to manage Fendi; head a part of Brioni corporate and is now at managing another large brand)

 

[zaraha]

Oh in 2003, this wasn’t croc embossed leather, but coated fabric. And it was very clear KL was going after that super distressed look. interestingly enough, it basically looks the same as the day I bought it, so it’s held up relatively well.

Oh lol sorry I didn’t know it was meant give that distress look! Btw: you have amazing collection!

 

[sweetpea_2009]

I've found this thread informative and interesting. I was contemplating the 19 tote when I saw a few pics of it on this forum. After this thread, I will not be pursuing that bag lol.

 

[Fixxi]

The 19 tote doesn't appeal to me, but all this thread did was convince me that I should buy a 19 as they seem way more durable than I imagined (per @TraceySH experiments)

 

[880]

I don't think I would say anything to the contrary. Chanel made the deal with Pierre and Paul Wertheimer in 1924 for mass producing the scent, allowing them 70% for most of the work, she ended up keeping 10% for basically choosing the scent and sticking her name on the bottle. Rhianna only keeps 15% of Fenty profits, it's not the worst deal. She tried her best to get wiggle out of the deal using Nazi legislation and even counterfeited her own products (for which she was never sued by the W family for). When she renegotiated in 1947 she took a huge lump-sum and took a cut on points (2% WW).

Anyway, OT, but the point is, make lots of money from handbags (amount other things) but since most of their profit (IMO) comes from beauty, skincare, and fragrances it's not the worst of calamities for them if new lines don't work out. I think Chanel need to rethink and redesign of the 19 (at least the tote) and 22 design as well as the finishing process for their leather goods. A huge part of the appeal of the brand is (sorry to say this) the resale value. If things (besides CFs) don't last even a season and can't be sold on to partly recoup the initial outlay I do think it will have a huge impact on the band overall.

Many here know more than I do, but the profit margins from fragrance are enormous (I think for every 200 euros, like 2 euros are used for ingredients) and it’s extremely big business and has been so for years. Having said that chanel has employed a variety of talented perfumers, Erest Beaux, Polge father ans son, etc., amnd has bought up its own farm land in Grasse to ensure premium and sufficient access to rose, Jasmine absolute and others. Chanel also has had exclusive contracts with Jasmine farmer Mul who has a generations old Jasmine farm. There are a lot of French connections in fashion and Perfume. I vaguely recall that Frederic Malles uncle was Dior or some other major name. And many houses employ the famous perfumers given top billing by Malle. I actually no l9nger recall the details, so I trust that other Tpfers can correct or adjust my factoids.

Re the statements that chanel outsources. With respect to cashmere sweaters, chanel bought outright or interest in Barrie, a Scottish mill for cashmere, that was going under in 2012. I believe Barrie currently is responsible for the cashmere. Not sure to what extent. I’ve also read that the knitwear is manufactured in Italy. . .

ETA: decades ago, I thought the head of chanel cosmetics was married to the head of Wet &wild, a budget brand that I happened to like? Anyway, I remembered reading an article about how the main difference re color cosmetics was packaging and sometimes a more elegant finish