AUTHENTICATE this COACH!

[Hyacinth]

With these very old bags, I always worry that someone could very easily make a metal Coach tag and slap it on a bag, or take an authentic tag from a really trashed bag.
Do you recognize the style?
item: VINTAGE COACH SADDLE BAG NAVY BLUE HANDBAG NEW YORK CITY PRE SERIAL # METAL TAG
seller: billybblue
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-COACH-SADDLE-BAG-NAVY-BLUE-HANDBAG-NEW-YORK-CITY-PRE-SERIAL-METAL-TAG-/131174803804?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=eBt95m1tXxuUNo9Y1d8TWXOaOUk%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

If Tetondeb is around, maybe she can take a look.

What worries me is that "top grain cowhide" stamp especially since it's gold. And the styling is too close to a Crescent Bag without having some of that style's details to make me comfortable with it. But I've made mistakes about early Coach styles before so I'm not going to claim any expertise in this case.

 

[BeenBurned]

Thanks Hyacinth, so the K82, 2 used as factory code in Turkey is fine? I thought numbers weren't used until 2000...

No, Turkey had a numeric plant code, along with an "i" code, several years before the Chinese plants started using them. I've never analyzed the exact years but there's nothing wrong with the bag and the format and spacing of the number is valid for that plant.

There have been a small handful of questionable bags with Turkey creeds but that isn't one of them.

The fakes I've seen with Turkish creeds are really obvious ones where the text and/or serial number are incorrect for the bags in question. Several have had U0J-7785 as the serial numbers:

 

[Damselfly]

When you have a moment could someone take a look at this (I'm not interested in buying it, just thirsty for knowledge.)

C7M-9927 United States

Item:Coach Willis Handbag Vintage Messenger Bag Crimson 9927, Authentic
Item #:221425173973
Seller:champee1000
URL:http://www.ebay.com/itm/Coach-Willi...nger-Bag-Crimson-9927-Authentic-/221425173973


When did Coach start production in Costa Rica? Did they use the M plant code in the US plants prior to that? Are the spacing of the stamp letters/numbers in the prefix wrong?And according to the seller, the bag is not red...but crimson, cranberry or light burgundy....?

 

[alansgail]

When you have a moment could someone take a look at this (I'm not interested in buying it, just thirsty for knowledge.)

C7M-9927 United States

Item:Coach Willis Handbag Vintage Messenger Bag Crimson 9927, Authentic
Item #:221425173973
Seller:champee1000
URL:http://www.ebay.com/itm/Coach-Willi...nger-Bag-Crimson-9927-Authentic-/221425173973


When did Coach start production in Costa Rica? Did they use the M plant code in the US plants prior to that? Are the spacing of the stamp letters/numbers in the prefix wrong?And according to the seller, the bag is not red...but crimson, cranberry or light burgundy....?

Hmmm, I'm curious about this one as well. This creed says it was made in the US.

 

[whateve]

If Tetondeb is around, maybe she can take a look.

What worries me is that "top grain cowhide" stamp especially since it's gold. And the styling is too close to a Crescent Bag without having some of that style's details to make me comfortable with it. But I've made mistakes about early Coach styles before so I'm not going to claim any expertise in this case.

That's exactly what bothered me about it. The "top grain cowhide" stamp in the place the Coach metal plaque would have been. My bag that has a metal plaque came with a card that described the leather as "harness leather." I've seen the "top grain cowhide" stamp in a lot of no-name brands. I don't recall ever seeing it on a Coach item. I'm not sure the bag even looks old enough and it was sold pretty cheap, like the seller wanted to get rid of it in a hurry. A bag this old would have had "solid brass" stamped on its buckles but the seller doesn't show them.

 

[whateve]

When you have a moment could someone take a look at this (I'm not interested in buying it, just thirsty for knowledge.)

C7M-9927 United States

Item:Coach Willis Handbag Vintage Messenger Bag Crimson 9927, Authentic
Item #:221425173973
Seller:champee1000
URL:http://www.ebay.com/itm/Coach-Willi...nger-Bag-Crimson-9927-Authentic-/221425173973


When did Coach start production in Costa Rica? Did they use the M plant code in the US plants prior to that? Are the spacing of the stamp letters/numbers in the prefix wrong?And according to the seller, the bag is not red...but crimson, cranberry or light burgundy....?

Hmmm, I'm curious about this one as well. This creed says it was made in the US.

The M plant is a weird one. There are creeds from the same month and year showing both US and Costa Rica locations. The plant code must have switched back and forth, and used by both at the same time for a short period. The earliest Costa Rican M creeds I've seen were from around May 1996. It was used for the US first.

The red used around that time was a deep red, not a bright red, and that might be what the seller is referring to. In the pictures, it looks like it is red, not burgundy.

The spacing of the prefix seems fine. The creed looks a little puffy to me, but other than that which could be from the angle the picture was taken, everything about the bag seems fine. More opinions are welcome.

 

[Damselfly]

The M plant is a weird one. There are creeds from the same month and year showing both US and Costa Rica locations. The plant code must have switched back and forth, and used by both at the same time for a short period. The earliest Costa Rican M creeds I've seen were from around May 1996. It was used for the US first.

The red used around that time was a deep red, not a bright red, and that might be what the seller is referring to. In the pictures, it looks like it is red, not burgundy.

The spacing of the prefix seems fine. The creed looks a little puffy to me, but other than that which could be from the angle the picture was taken, everything about the bag seems fine. More opinions are welcome.

Here is a K6M United States.... so, October.
With a bullet

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Coach-Black...id=100033&prg=9723&rk=3&rkt=4&sd=321389077675


Confusing, to say the least. Regardless, it is good information to know about the M plant code. Thanks, Whateve.

 

[Damselfly]

That's exactly what bothered me about it. The "top grain cowhide" stamp in the place the Coach metal plaque would have been. My bag that has a metal plaque came with a card that described the leather as "harness leather." I've seen the "top grain cowhide" stamp in a lot of no-name brands. I don't recall ever seeing it on a Coach item. I'm not sure the bag even looks old enough and it was sold pretty cheap, like the seller wanted to get rid of it in a hurry. A bag this old would have had "solid brass" stamped on its buckles but the seller doesn't show them.

The two things you mention are what made me hesitate about this item. Plus the rivets to the feet can be seen on the inside at the bottom of the bag, which I found unusual.

I saw a Prairie Bag the other day listed and purchased within the same short span of time. The backside of the turnlock was fastened with screws and had "Coach" stamped on it along with the inside pocket zipper pull and the brass buckles. The bag looked fake to me.

 

[Hyacinth]

From Wikipedia's definitions and from the Coach creed, I don't think Coach would have ever used Top-grain, only Full-grain:

"Full-grain leather refers to hides that have not been sanded, buffed, or snuffed (as opposed to top-grain or corrected leather) to remove imperfections (or natural marks) on the surface of the hide. The grain remains allowing the fiber strength and durability. The grain also has breathability, resulting in less moisture from prolonged contact. Rather than wearing out, it will develop a patina over time. High quality leather furniture and footwear are often made from full-grain leather. Full-grain leathers are typically available in two finish types: aniline and semi-aniline.

Top-grain leather (the most common type used in high-end leather products) is the second-highest quality. It has had the "split" layer separated away, making it thinner and more pliable than full-grain. Its surface has been sanded and a finish coat added to the surface which results in a colder, plastic feel with less breathability, and it will not develop a natural patina. It is typically less expensive and has greater resistance to stains than full-grain leather, so long as the finish remains unbroken."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leather

That bag has to be fake.

 

[ccfun]

No, Turkey had a numeric plant code, along with an "i" code, several years before the Chinese plants started using them. I've never analyzed the exact years but there's nothing wrong with the bag and the format and spacing of the number is valid for that plant.

There have been a small handful of questionable bags with Turkey creeds but that isn't one of them.

The fakes I've seen with Turkish creeds are really obvious ones where the text and/or serial number are incorrect for the bags in question. Several have had U0J-7785 as the serial numbers:

Thank you, Hyacinth and BB :urock:

 

[Damselfly]

Here's a fake metal Coach tag applied to the outside of a fabric bag.

https://www.etsy.com/listing/173917...age=2&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery

 

[alansgail]

If Tetondeb is around, maybe she can take a look.

What worries me is that "top grain cowhide" stamp especially since it's gold. And the styling is too close to a Crescent Bag without having some of that style's details to make me comfortable with it. But I've made mistakes about early Coach styles before so I'm not going to claim any expertise in this case.

So sad that someone got ripped off to the tune of $75!!

 

[Tetondeb]

If Tetondeb is around, maybe she can take a look.

What worries me is that "top grain cowhide" stamp especially since it's gold. And the styling is too close to a Crescent Bag without having some of that style's details to make me comfortable with it. But I've made mistakes about early Coach styles before so I'm not going to claim any expertise in this case.

Hey. ..I actually purchased this for the archive. Jed is pretty excited about it. I just got a notice that the listing was removed.

 

[Tetondeb]

Here is Jed's response when I sent him the listing (after I purchased it).

Hi Debi,

This one is strange and not in our catalogs. We first used these large-style buckles in 1970 so I would date it early 70s, especially since it had the Top Grain stamp. That type of stamp denoting the leather type is on a few women's bags in the 60s & 70s but more common on men's product from the 40s-70s.

Looks like a cross between a crescent and a stewardess to me. Did you win? We would be interested for the Archive come end of summer.

Thanks for sharing,
Jed

 

[Tetondeb]

From Wikipedia's definitions and from the Coach creed, I don't think Coach would have ever used Top-grain, only Full-grain:

"Full-grain leather refers to hides that have not been sanded, buffed, or snuffed (as opposed to top-grain or corrected leather) to remove imperfections (or natural marks) on the surface of the hide. The grain remains allowing the fiber strength and durability. The grain also has breathability, resulting in less moisture from prolonged contact. Rather than wearing out, it will develop a patina over time. High quality leather furniture and footwear are often made from full-grain leather. Full-grain leathers are typically available in two finish types: aniline and semi-aniline.

Top-grain leather (the most common type used in high-end leather products) is the second-highest quality. It has had the "split" layer separated away, making it thinner and more pliable than full-grain. Its surface has been sanded and a finish coat added to the surface which results in a colder, plastic feel with less breathability, and it will not develop a natural patina. It is typically less expensive and has greater resistance to stains than full-grain leather, so long as the finish remains unbroken."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leather

That bag has to be fake.

It wasn't I've actually had a few bags with the top-grain stamp in them. If you get an original of the stacked flat kiss lock "swinger" style bags they have that in the inner pocket. Only ever seen it on the ones with the baseball hangtag.