Workplace Another Odd Work Situation

[hermes_lemming]

Some things you say don't add up, and I'm wondering if some exaggeration is involved.

If the HR person is only a recruiter who has been temping for the company since February, how on earth would she have any sort of authority over terminating anyone there, including you? So why would you even let whatever she "threatens" bother you then?

And if she's only been there since February, then how did she possibly have hired "Grandpa A" in 30 days, so he's thus also a new hire to the company, hired before you, right? And already seems to have significant responsibilities and has significantly goofed off for only a month without reprimand?

Who does he actually report to and why isn't that person involved in his poor performance, especially in what is typically considered to be a probationary period?

Seems to me that if neither employee A or B (I can't call them "boys", sorry, that's unprofessional too) reports directly to you yet things have escalated this much, why aren't their bosses involved - meaning why haven't you escalated the situation if this work falls on you to shepherd it to a successful conclusion? Get em in a room and hash it out, as another poster suggested, but keep the meddling temp to perm recruiter out of it.

I wish there was in an exaggeration. Unfortunately this is all true.

If you really must know, this HR person started last week of Jan. She doesn't have any authority over termination and I believe I stated that in the other response to Midge S. Please re-read this thread.

Whatever she threatens bothers me because she is HR in the end of the day. I take them seriously whether or not they're meant to be serious as would any person IMO.

My explanation of her start date should clear up any confusion you have regarding the hiring of Employee A (I'm refusing to call him ****). When I said he was a grandpa, I meant it in as he is an actual grandpa - not intending for it to be interpreted in a derogatory manner.

Yes he is a new hire in the company and hired before me. He has duties in accordance to his position which is different from mine. He has "goofed" (your words, not mine) for more than a month and he has been reprimanded by HR.

He somewhat reports to me but ultimately reports to my boss. As I've stated in the beginning posts of this thread, when I first noticed his behaviour - my immediate reaction was to reprimand him there and then but HR advised me to back off due to his personal issues.

I handle tactical so it's my responsibility to make sure they do their work. My boss has final say as to whether or not these gentleman (btw, when I say "boys", I mean it in a friendly fashion - I refer to my own guy friends as "boys" but that's besides the point) are employed period.

I didn't know that Employee A was lying about completing his work until after the project was over. We found out the last day of the project. Prior to then, every time his name was mention, HR literally said "leave him alone, he is delivering". Well guess what? He wasn't. We both took whatever he said as gold and he turned out NOT to be a man of his word.

Once again, I could not have brought them in the same room to hash it out the day of the email because Employee A was enraged and I'm 97% sure there would have been a physical altercation. Have you ever seen grown men enraged? That's what I saw that day. He was still so peeved that the day after - when my boss brought them both in a room, employee A was calling employee B names.

Please reread this thread again because Midge S actually suggested having me, my boss and the HR (temp to perm) collaborating in a room to resolve this. Not employee A and employee B and myself.

Lesson learned the hard way - I am keeping the HR person out of it. Her heart is in the right place but she doesn't have access to the final product or output and that's burning.

 

[hermes_lemming]

I forgot to mention that Employee A has been reprimanded at least once. However it's been done by HR and noted at the start of this thread - she does not want him to quit under any circumstance because of his skill level/expertise. She complained that it took her a month to find him. I'm not sure what that means in the HR world as Im not privy to it but it sounds like in accordance to another poster, that's not a long time.

It's my fault for letting her meddle with how to manage Employee A and I take full ownership of that. That's NEVER going to happen again. I'm running things now on, my way - which is you show up on time and do your work well. Not be late and lie about work that's completed when it turns out it's either not or done incorrectly.

He knew he did wrong. Why else would you explain why he was so reluctant to show up to work the next day - feigning a headache and I had to swear on everything I hold dear that he wasn't going to be axed that day or else he wouldn't show up? Why would he be afraid of that if he performed well?

Anyways past is past. Just moving forward from this point on and lessons learned from mistakes that occurred.

 

[redney]

I read carefully, now I ask you do the same, and take your own advice to please re-read my reply.

In your reply to Midge, you said she started in February. :shrug: So your stated timeline that she started in Feb, took 30 days to hire him would put his start date in March.

Then this big project was only a month or so in duration?

A month in hiring is *nothing*. It can take much longer to find hard to find skills - up to 3, 6 months easily, especially in a competitive market. She's probably actually worried about losing any if her compensation if he leaves for whatever reason within a specific time frame, not the work she'll need to do to replace him.

Your company must be incredibly odd because in all my working experience I've never been in a company, 30 person startup to F500, where anyone in HR has the authority and power to make and carry out termination decisions for employees outside their own departments. Sure, HR people can work with line or department managers and other functional/business leaders to advise on performance management and termination process, but to decide, x person is going to be fired? Nope.

If you have a good relationship with your VP, and he's pleased with your work, then wtf cares what she says. She's a contract recruiter for crying out loud, which is not the gamut of HR.

I also recommended that you get the 2 employees' bosses together to discuss, not the 2 employees together. Please re-read my response.

I also understand he's really a Grandpa, thus that's what I called him instead of boy.

Finally, look at this as a key lesson learned about this guy - if you are in the position of ensuring everyone's work on projects is progressing, you'll have to stay on top of him on every little thing. Sucks to micro manage but if it's your job then it is what it is.

Just a side note as advice too: I hope you keep your cool at the office. If he or the recruiter know they get under your skin (as paragraphs and paragraphs show here), your credibility and authority will be lost.

 

[Jesssh]

Hi h, sorry you are going through this. It sounds like a mess.

Two things to consider: education and timesheets.

I realize timesheets can be insulting to professionals. I never kept a detailed one until I had my own business. They're awesome! They tell you exactly what you spent your time on. I can use them to populate skills and accomplishments on my resume. They keep me from taking unnecessary breaks and remind me when I should take a break to recharge. They keep me on track, especially since they are in the same file as my TO DO list (another useful tool). I note each activity at 15 minute intervals and separate activities by client or internal project. It takes seconds to make a note of each activity. Right now I just use a text editor like notetab. It doesn't have to be fancy. When I am ready to invoice, I have details and no one has ever questioned a line item on my invoices. The concept of timesheets may be hard to sell to management, but keep the idea close - it can help the employee defend their value too. As an employee I would offer to report a time summary of my activities to my boss. They may not want to look at it, but sometimes even unread documentation has power.

Oh, and I do complex projects. I'm just really good at breaking them down into manageable activities. Some TO DO items are "figure out how to ____". Timesheets and to do lists can be helpful in focusing employees on the work and not their problems.

Re: education, there are lots of courses and resources on ways to handle problem employees. You can start by googling things like "how to deal with a ______ employee" (maybe on your home network ). You have been lucky to work with professionals up to this point. You may want to send your employees to some professional development classes if you have the budget. Or maybe there is something free online.

Sorry I don't have more helpful info. Maybe some structure would help everyone feel better. Take one problem at a time and you can get through it.

 

[hermes_lemming]

I read carefully, now I ask you do the same, and take your own advice to please re-read my reply.

In your reply to Midge, you said she started in February. :shrug: So your stated timeline that she started in Feb, took 30 days to hire him would put his start date in March.

Then this big project was only a month or so in duration?

A month in hiring is *nothing*. It can take much longer to find hard to find skills - up to 3, 6 months easily, especially in a competitive market. She's probably actually worried about losing any if her compensation if he leaves for whatever reason within a specific time frame, not the work she'll need to do to replace him.

Your company must be incredibly odd because in all my working experience I've never been in a company, 30 person startup to F500, where anyone in HR has the authority and power to make and carry out termination decisions for employees outside their own departments. Sure, HR people can work with line or department managers and other functional/business leaders to advise on performance management and termination process, but to decide, x person is going to be fired? Nope.

If you have a good relationship with your VP, and he's pleased with your work, then wtf cares what she says. She's a contract recruiter for crying out loud, which is not the gamut of HR.

I also recommended that you get the 2 employees' bosses together to discuss, not the 2 employees together. Please re-read my response.

I also understand he's really a Grandpa, thus that's what I called him instead of boy.

Finally, look at this as a key lesson learned about this guy - if you are in the position of ensuring everyone's work on projects is progressing, you'll have to stay on top of him on every little thing. Sucks to micro manage but if it's your job then it is what it is.

Just a side note as advice too: I hope you keep your cool at the office. If he or the recruiter know they get under your skin (as paragraphs and paragraphs show here), your credibility and authority will be lost.

Hi - here are my responses regarding HR's start date

She is actually a recruiter who is temporarily contracting for us. She will be perm next month I think and has been temping for us for since Feb I think.

If you really must know, this HR person started last week of Jan. .

His - EMPLOYEE A's - start date was actually last week of Feb.

I don't think I stated anywhere that the project was "big" per say but that's besides the point. There have two projects already. One preliminary (call it a trial run) and another - "regular".

I'm not privy to the HR world so I can't speak to her compensation and such. I just know that she is hourly vs working through an outside agency and having to deal with commission etc.

No I completely agree 2,000% this place is "special".

I understand what you're saying about her but yes unfortunately she does act as if she is the gamut.

For the recommendation about bosses - my boss is their direct boss whereas I'm in charge of tactical - if that makes sense. I know it sounds sorta confusing but it's the best way that I can explain it.

I know what you mean about micromanaging. I actually made notes about the whole ordeal - brainstormed on ways to improve it etc last weekend. I don't like micromanaging either but if they don't perform then it's my job to make sure they do.

What's truly sad is that this ruined both mine and my boss's easter. Unbeknownst to me, we both went home friday - mulled over the weekend and played the sequence of events over and over and rehashed monday.

I do keep my cool very well in the office. In fact today my boss commented that I had way more patience than him after witnessing me running a meeting and dealing with a language barrier at a open forum.

Thank you for your advice.

Hi h, sorry you are going through this. It sounds like a mess.

Two things to consider: education and timesheets.

I realize timesheets can be insulting to professionals. I never kept a detailed one until I had my own business. They're awesome! They tell you exactly what you spent your time on. I can use them to populate skills and accomplishments on my resume. They keep me from taking unnecessary breaks and remind me when I should take a break to recharge. They keep me on track, especially since they are in the same file as my TO DO list (another useful tool). I note each activity at 15 minute intervals and separate activities by client or internal project. It takes seconds to make a note of each activity. Right now I just use a text editor like notetab. It doesn't have to be fancy. When I am ready to invoice, I have details and no one has ever questioned a line item on my invoices. The concept of timesheets may be hard to sell to management, but keep the idea close - it can help the employee defend their value too. As an employee I would offer to report a time summary of my activities to my boss. They may not want to look at it, but sometimes even unread documentation has power.

Oh, and I do complex projects. I'm just really good at breaking them down into manageable activities. Some TO DO items are "figure out how to ____". Timesheets and to do lists can be helpful in focusing employees on the work and not their problems.

Re: education, there are lots of courses and resources on ways to handle problem employees. You can start by googling things like "how to deal with a ______ employee" (maybe on your home network ). You have been lucky to work with professionals up to this point. You may want to send your employees to some professional development classes if you have the budget. Or maybe there is something free online.

Sorry I don't have more helpful info. Maybe some structure would help everyone feel better. Take one problem at a time and you can get through it.

Mess is an understatement.

I learned Employee A actually called Employee B "stupid" 5xs to his face.Sigh...

Unfortunately in this line of work, timesheets would never fly. I have one other contractor actually emailing me when he arrives and leaves work as they are timed stamped and so when I approve his log for the week, I have something to run off of.

Employee A is in a very short leash. He has to perform well and be timely.

I will definitely research on how to deal with problematic employees. I've worked with 1-2 bad seeds in the past at a time, usually only one. Never this many at once but it will all be fine in the end. Thanks again.