VCA ~ Van Cleef Arpels Discussion thread!

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Well, there are four VCAs in Vegas (it's not fair at all). Cannot say much about Wynn as it's new to me and with less than 15 mins there, I have to say the SA (forgot his name) was very eager to help.

Bellagio has all brands at one location too, one stop shop for everything too. VCA boutique here is pretty small (I didn't visit this time).

The one at the Forum Shop, I think they are franchise store, not owned by corporate. I bought a couple of small pieces from them a few years ago and SAs were very helpful and patient, showed me how to wear 20 motifs in 4 different ways, and Magic pendant in 3 different ways. I went in for a quick inventory check on Saturday, they definitely has lots, they even has YG 10 motif GMOP on display. SA said someone ordered but didn't like it. I tried and loved, but didn't like the MTO price.

Last but not least, is my favorite at Crystal. SA very helpful, kind, said they can order perlee clover bracelet for me with 30% deposit, and guess what, here comes the best, you may recall I bought one perlee clover in Istanbul a month ago and second guessed my decision on the size and since then, it's back in the box and my husband was helping me to sell it. Anyway, She put a small size sweet clover next to my XS size, moved it back and forth on my wrist, and said: Honey, I think you should keep it. It looks gorgeous on you. and it's the perfect size. I think the size small is too big on you, and you won't be happy. I wish I have sold this piece to you. That's why this is my favorite store and I just love the fact she didn't say you should sell it and I will order a size small for you. And I feel so relieved and get to enjoy my Perlee Clover that night and many more days and nights to come. :biggrin:

I hope you get to visit the boutique in Crystal someday if not this time.
@rosebean how did I miss reading this! I am soooo happy you decided to keep the XS Perlee clover bracelet.
 
This is a bit off topic, but it's related to my recent trip to VCA, so I am pretty sure it's okay to post and I won't get banned. :biggrin: :heart:. You may recall I posted earlier about my Vegas trip when the SA said there is a surge of interest in the Clover bangle due to folks being sick of Cartier as it is so saturated now in the market.

I would dare say some of the Loves people wear are not authentic. Which then brings me to this article I thought was interesting.
Cartier, Amazon Suing Influencer, Sellers Over Counterfeit ‘Love’ Jewelry | National Jeweler

Yes, these sellers clearly say their product is fake. However, I think there are also sellers out there selling high-end fakes but claim they are authentic, including fake VCA Alhambra.

If you are not buying directly from the boutique, I would double and triple check the piece is authentic. Saving a few dollars in the short term would be a complete waste of money, if one were to find out down the road the piece is just a high end fake and worth nothing but the raw materials.

I wanted to share this article... hope this was helpful.
 
This is a bit off topic, but it's related to my recent trip to VCA, so I am pretty sure it's okay to post and I won't get banned. :biggrin: :heart:. You may recall I posted earlier about my Vegas trip when the SA said there is a surge of interest in the Clover bangle due to folks being sick of Cartier as it is so saturated now in the market.

I would dare say some of the Loves people wear are not authentic. Which then brings me to this article I thought was interesting.
Cartier, Amazon Suing Influencer, Sellers Over Counterfeit ‘Love’ Jewelry | National Jeweler

Yes, these sellers clearly say their product is fake. However, I think there are also sellers out there selling high-end fakes but claim they are authentic, including fake VCA Alhambra.

If you are not buying directly from the boutique, I would double and triple check the piece is authentic. Saving a few dollars in the short term would be a complete waste of money, if one were to find out down the road the piece is just a high end fake and worth nothing but the raw materials.

I wanted to share this article... hope this was helpful.
That's absolutely true and this has been going on for years. A number of years ago US customs seized shipments of counterfeit Cartier and VCA Alhambra that had come into Florida. The pieces were virtually indistinguishable from the authentic items. Suddenly there was an influx of rare items including on 1stDibs of 20-motif turquoise and coral Alhambra necklaces. I know firsthand, because I bought one--which was successfully returned.

As a result, many dealers I know will no longer sell VCA Alhambra or Cartier bracelets because even they can't tell.

Something else that occurs is that photos are posted of a genuine item for sale which reveal the serial number. Counterfeiters have been careful to apply the same serial number to the same item so it matches in VCA's system. In other words, the serial number for an authentic 20-motif turquoise will be used on a counterfeit 20-motif turquoise. If a SA runs it thorough the system it will come back as matching, but that doesn't mean it's authentic.

When VCA reviews a piece for authentication, their conclusion states the item does not bear the characteristics of an authentic item. This means it could be counterfeit or it has been altered such that the specifications are non-conforming. In other words, you could own something that's authentic, but has been altered, so it's no longer recognized as a VCA creation by VCA. That's why it's important to have all repairs done by VCA, which they won't do without first determining authenticity. Easy enough if you have the documents, unless the documents are fraudulent or if it's flagged by VCA, in which case you have to go the full authentication route before VCA will do the repair. That's important to have if you ever want to resell it. It's also important in terms of value.

I see things all the time on Fashionphile or TRR sold at near retail but without documentation. From the boutique, for $50 or $250 more you get the box, pouches, the COA, the receipt and chocolates. To me, that documentation is paramount. In other words, the savings is inconsequential to what you're not getting.

There are certain older pieces that you can buy preowned with confidence--in fact that's the only way to get them as they're out of production. But more popular items, such as the Love Bracelets and Alhambra necklaces unfortunately attract unscrupulous sellers that attempt to exploit customers that want to save some money. And how else are you going to get that turquoise alhambra, other than to buy it on the secondary market?

Accordingly I buy from the boutique but I also buy preowned. However, I have several rules of thumb: 1) if it's too good to be true, it probably is, so DON'T; 2) Buy from a "seemingly" reputable dealer; 3) make sure there's a return option; 4) do not buy from an overseas seller; 5) ONLY buy with a credit card--NEVER do a wire transfer or pay in cash for jewelry, even if it's at a discount; 6) run it by a jeweler when it arrives and if you feel queasy then return [e.g., the "go with your gut test,"]; 6) if two sellers have the same item and one comes with documents and the other not, buy it from the former even if it's more expensive; and finally, 7) if it's a piece you really want and the cost is more than you can comfortably lose, have it authenticated. It's well worth the peace of mind, it will enable you to resell with confidence, and if it comes back as counterfeit, it will provide the necessary substantiation to give you recourse.
 
That's absolutely true and this has been going on for years. A number of years ago US customs seized shipments of counterfeit Cartier and VCA Alhambra that had come into Florida. The pieces were virtually indistinguishable from the authentic items. Suddenly there was an influx of rare items including on 1stDibs of 20-motif turquoise and coral Alhambra necklaces. I know firsthand, because I bought one--which was successfully returned.

As a result, many dealers I know will no longer sell VCA Alhambra or Cartier bracelets because even they can't tell.

Something else that occurs is that photos are posted of a genuine item for sale which reveal the serial number. Counterfeiters have been careful to apply the same serial number to the same item so it matches in VCA's system. In other words, the serial number for an authentic 20-motif turquoise will be used on a counterfeit 20-motif turquoise. If a SA runs it thorough the system it will come back as matching, but that doesn't mean it's authentic.

When VCA reviews a piece for authentication, their conclusion states the item does not bear the characteristics of an authentic item. This means it could be counterfeit or it has been altered such that the specifications are non-conforming. In other words, you could own something that's authentic, but has been altered, so it's no longer recognized as a VCA creation by VCA. That's why it's important to have all repairs done by VCA, which they won't do without first determining authenticity. Easy enough if you have the documents, unless the documents are fraudulent or if it's flagged by VCA, in which case you have to go the full authentication route before VCA will do the repair. That's important to have if you ever want to resell it. It's also important in terms of value.

I see things all the time on Fashionphile or TRR sold at near retail but without documentation. From the boutique, for $50 or $250 more you get the box, pouches, the COA, the receipt and chocolates. To me, that documentation is paramount. In other words, the savings is inconsequential to what you're not getting.

There are certain older pieces that you can buy preowned with confidence--in fact that's the only way to get them as they're out of production. But more popular items, such as the Love Bracelets and Alhambra necklaces unfortunately attract unscrupulous sellers that attempt to exploit customers that want to save some money. And how else are you going to get that turquoise alhambra, other than to buy it on the secondary market?

Accordingly I buy from the boutique but I also buy preowned. However, I have several rules of thumb: 1) if it's too good to be true, it probably is, so DON'T; 2) Buy from a "seemingly" reputable dealer; 3) make sure there's a return option; 4) do not buy from an overseas seller; 5) ONLY buy with a credit card--NEVER do a wire transfer or pay in cash for jewelry, even if it's at a discount; 6) run it by a jeweler when it arrives and if you feel queasy then return [e.g., the "go with your gut test,"]; 6) if two sellers have the same item and one comes with documents and the other not, buy it from the former even if it's more expensive; and finally, 7) if it's a piece you really want and the cost is more than you can comfortably lose, have it authenticated. It's well worth the peace of mind, it will enable you to resell with confidence, and if it comes back as counterfeit, it will provide the necessary substantiation to give you recourse.
This was great! Thank you for all this wonderful insight! I only buy from the boutique, and I did not realize what a big business fakes are. Wow! Thanks for sharing!
 
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This was great! Thank you for all this wonderful insight! I only buy from the boutique, and I did not realize what a big business fakes are. Wow! Thanks for sharing!
OH MY GOSH . . . I could tell you stories! And what worries me, are the near-perfect copies circulating in the jewelrysphere and no one's the wiser.

Indeed, there are some dealers I've done business with that won't buy from me---even though they know how careful I am---unless I provide full documentation--repair receipts from the boutique won't suffice--they're that leary. It's not that they don't trust me. Full documentation eliminates the issue of authenticity and makes it easier for them to sell.

Because all those green envelopes and receipts look the same, I've taken to organizing everything. The COA's and receipts are all in one place and everything is labeled. Also, I've taken to photocopying the receipt and putting a copy separate from the documentation in the original box (all the boxes are labeled too).

If I need the receipt--such as for a repair--I can find it. Usually the store can look it up, but sometimes not, so it's nice to have it organized. Admittedly, if I was really organized (I recommend this) I would download the receipt and maintain a copy on the computer independent of the hard-copy. Just a thought because--and I know this may sound strange--without paperwork, that high value item that you treasure, may be regarded as indistinguishable in value from some shlock sold on eBay if you go to resell. How do they know it's authentic? Because you say it is?????

Think of a so-called Andy Warhol . . . The one thing standing between authenticity and a lack thereof is paperwork. Without proper certification, e.g., the Andy Warhol Foundation, it's of insignificant value.
 
OH MY GOSH . . . I could tell you stories! And what worries me, are the near-perfect copies circulating in the jewelrysphere and no one's the wiser.

Indeed, there are some dealers I've done business with that won't buy from me---even though they know how careful I am---unless I provide full documentation--repair receipts from the boutique won't suffice--they're that leary. It's not that they don't trust me. Full documentation eliminates the issue of authenticity and makes it easier for them to sell.

Because all those green envelopes and receipts look the same, I've taken to organizing everything. The COA's and receipts are all in one place and everything is labeled. Also, I've taken to photocopying the receipt and putting a copy separate from the documentation in the original box (all the boxes are labeled too).

If I need the receipt--such as for a repair--I can find it. Usually the store can look it up, but sometimes not, so it's nice to have it organized. Admittedly, if I was really organized (I recommend this) I would download the receipt and maintain a copy on the computer independent of the hard-copy. Just a thought because--and I know this may sound strange--without paperwork, that high value item that you treasure, may be regarded as indistinguishable in value from some shlock sold on eBay if you go to resell. How do they know it's authentic? Because you say it is?????

Think of a so-called Andy Warhol . . . The one thing standing between authenticity and a lack thereof is paperwork. Without proper certification, e.g., the Andy Warhol Foundation, it's of insignificant value.
Your comment on the store looking up a purchase is spot on!
That is 100% exactly my reason for buying fine jewelry in the US only, where I live. A no hassle after care is worth more to me than saving a few pennies. SAs come and go, and I do not want the drama of having to provide paperwork. Any SA can look my purchase up in the system.

Not to mention... paper is so 20th century.
FYI... GIA is going digital. GIA certificates will be digital only starting in Jan 2023 (paper reports will be completely phased out by 2025).
 
Your comment on the store looking up a purchase is spot on!
That is 100% exactly my reason for buying fine jewelry in the US only, where I live. A no hassle after care is worth more to me than saving a few pennies. SAs come and go, and I do not want the drama of having to provide paperwork. Any SA can look my purchase up in the system.

Not to mention... paper is so 20th century.
FYI... GIA is going digital. GIA certificates will be digital only starting in Jan 2023 (paper reports will be completely phased out by 2025).
Wow! I'm old-school. I still like paper. What if your hard drive's corrupted?
Also, wouldn't a digital certificate be easy to counterfeit? VCA, and some clothing manufacturers too (Moncler comes to mind) use a hologram.
Would you not feel comfortable buying from VCA in Europe? They'd provide paperwork, no different from any other transaction. And if you said, let's say, that you bought it at VCA in Paris, with some effort, wouldn't they be able to confirm?
 
Wow! I'm old-school. I still like paper. What if your hard drive's corrupted?
Also, wouldn't a digital certificate be easy to counterfeit? VCA, and some clothing manufacturers too (Moncler comes to mind) use a hologram.
Would you not feel comfortable buying from VCA in Europe? They'd provide paperwork, no different from any other transaction. And if you said, let's say, that you bought it at VCA in Paris, with some effort, wouldn't they be able to confirm?
If you buy something in London, it will not be in the US database. I confirmed this with VCA in London who said there is not a global database. This means for service in the US, the boutique may ask you for proof if you walk in to a new store or if your SA left and you now have a new SA. I personally do not want to deal with the paperwork to prove authenticity. For me, it is much easier when I tell a brand (VCA or other luxury jewelry brand) to "look me up."

In the example of GIA, the digital certificate is owned by GIA, stored most likely in the cloud. You as the owner of the diamond have access to the certificate if you want to see it or print out a copy. However, to prove your diamond matches the certificate, GIA will not just take your "paper certificate" as truth because your paper certificate can be copied a thousand times. GIA will check for the inscription on the girdle of the diamond to see if it's a match with their certificate. As a secondary precaution, GIA will also have a machine that will scan the image of your diamond. No two diamonds are exactly the same if you look at internal inclusions. Therefore, even if someone cuts a diamond to the exact dimensions as your original diamond, the machine will still be able to identify that it is not the same diamond due to the placement of the internal inclusions/feathers/etc.

It's going to be great as there is a lot altered stones popping up in the diamond industry. Here is a good article to read: GIA Reports Are Going All Digital, And Here’s How It Will Work – JCK (jckonline.com)
 
If you buy something in London, it will not be in the US database. I confirmed this with VCA in London who said there is not a global database. This means for service in the US, the boutique may ask you for proof if you walk in to a new store or if your SA left and you now have a new SA. I personally do not want to deal with the paperwork to prove authenticity. For me, it is much easier when I tell a brand (VCA or other luxury jewelry brand) to "look me up."

In the example of GIA, the digital certificate is owned by GIA, stored most likely in the cloud. You as the owner of the diamond have access to the certificate if you want to see it or print out a copy. However, to prove your diamond matches the certificate, GIA will not just take your "paper certificate" as truth because your paper certificate can be copied a thousand times. GIA will check for the inscription on the girdle of the diamond to see if it's a match with their certificate. As a secondary precaution, GIA will also have a machine that will scan the image of your diamond. No two diamonds are exactly the same if you look at internal inclusions. Therefore, even if someone cuts a diamond to the exact dimensions as your original diamond, the machine will still be able to identify that it is not the same diamond due to the placement of the internal inclusions/feathers/etc.

It's going to be great as there is a lot altered stones popping up in the diamond industry. Here is a good article to read: GIA Reports Are Going All Digital, And Here’s How It Will Work – JCK (jckonline.com)
My London SA said can see all my European and North American purchases, but can not see my Asia purchases. So I agree no global database but there is some consolidation between some regions.
 
If you buy something in London, it will not be in the US database. I confirmed this with VCA in London who said there is not a global database. This means for service in the US, the boutique may ask you for proof if you walk in to a new store or if your SA left and you now have a new SA. I personally do not want to deal with the paperwork to prove authenticity. For me, it is much easier when I tell a brand (VCA or other luxury jewelry brand) to "look me up."

In the example of GIA, the digital certificate is owned by GIA, stored most likely in the cloud. You as the owner of the diamond have access to the certificate if you want to see it or print out a copy. However, to prove your diamond matches the certificate, GIA will not just take your "paper certificate" as truth because your paper certificate can be copied a thousand times. GIA will check for the inscription on the girdle of the diamond to see if it's a match with their certificate. As a secondary precaution, GIA will also have a machine that will scan the image of your diamond. No two diamonds are exactly the same if you look at internal inclusions. Therefore, even if someone cuts a diamond to the exact dimensions as your original diamond, the machine will still be able to identify that it is not the same diamond due to the placement of the internal inclusions/feathers/etc.

It's going to be great as there is a lot altered stones popping up in the diamond industry. Here is a good article to read: GIA Reports Are Going All Digital, And Here’s How It Will Work – JCK (jckonline.com)
I love this. Thank you so much for the information. You truly are a font of knowledge.

And then there's the issue of diamonds with counterfeit GIA inscriptions. It gets to a point where every possible indicator of authenticity has been corrupted such that no one and nothing can be trusted, unless you go back to the original source.
 
My London SA said can see all my European and North American purchases, but can not see my Asia purchases. So I agree no global database but there is some consolidation between some regions.
I wonder if VCA Harrods is under different guidelines, perhaps considered a "leased" boutique, like a NM in the US.
I hope one day they will consolidate. The world is getting smaller, and people shop globally.

By the way, VCA Harrods said they no longer ship international. It is local only. The SA said it was a new policy. I'm not sure if your London boutique has the same policy; it would be interesting to know.
 
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I wonder if VCA Harrods is under different guidelines, perhaps considered a "leased" boutique, like a NM in the US.
I hope one day they will consolidate. The world is getting smaller, and people things globally.

By the way, VCA Harrods said they no longer ship international. It is local only. The SA said it was a new policy. I'm not sure if your London boutique has the same policy; it would be interesting to know.
My boutique better continue to ship as I am awaiting SO I paid for already. I think they would lose a lot of business as I understand a lot of their clients are international. I don’t shop at Harrods one. I suspect the Harrid’s one follows Harrod’s not VCA policy on shipping.
 
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