VCA ~ Van Cleef Arpels Discussion thread!

[swisshera]

I need some help. I received a 20-motif VCA Alhambra necklace today which I bought on the secondary market. It came with the letter of authenticity from VCA's heritage Department.
My SA told me that the LOA's have been faked!
Also, the giant light green box (which looks exactly like my other authentic boxes) is made out of ultra suede, not real suede. I've seen ultra suede pouches used for repairs by VCA, but never the boxes.
Does anyone know if the large necklace boxes are ever made of ultrasuede?
I did take the necklace to a jeweler who confirms that the stones are what they're represented to be, they're uniform in color and the settings are 18k.
Unfortunately, but VCA tells me that they're backlogged 6 months to do an authenticity check, at which time it will be too late to dispute the purchase on my credit card?
Any thoughts? Thank you all!

VCA changed the boxes a few times during the last 10 years or so that I started collecting VCA. Some of them have leather/ suede peeling off as they aged. Though they are original. It happened to me too that I bought a quite expensive 20 motifs necklace from an established jeweler, took it to VCA to authenticate it - and the serial number is mismatched. That was an easy tell to me and they refund me right away. Though, the thing is - if you have second guess about your piece, and the authentication process takes longer than getting your credit card covered, I agree with EtoupeBirkin that you should return the piece so that you have the peace of mind. That is so important that you need to buy something you love and make sure you are 100% with the piece that you bought or you will regret.

 

[kimber418]

Very well said. Not only that, it really hits the nail on the head.

However, (and as an aside), I understand that counterfeiters will buy an authentic alhambra necklace that's relatively inexpensive, such as onyx or MOP, pop out the stones, and replace them with turquoise plastic . . . When examined, it appears authentic, and of course it is, albeit with one glaring exception. Other counterfeiters are using MOP dyed to look like another stone, and the chain will be made out of silver with an 18k gold plated wash.
That's why I mentioned that this does test as 18K gold and the stones were determined to be authentic and uniform in color.
My jeweler does repairs for VCA, and my SA has been with VCA since the Arpels brothers owned it. Both examined it and were of the opinion it is authentic. The SA was also of the opinion that the LOA is authentic. That's why I'm on the fence.
I've been told to just enjoy it, but unfortunately based on my work I approach everything with the worst case scenario . . .

I wish I could see the box you are talking about. It seems like I did have an older VCA piece (bought at boutique years ago) that sound similar to the material on the box you are talking about. I have a limited amount of my VCA boxes and storage cases here where we are living part-time. Most are in storage right now. All of my VCA pieces are here with me but none of the boxes, etc. Can you post a photo or pm the photo?

 

[Deleted member 626500]

I wish I could see the box you are talking about. It seems like I did have an older VCA piece (bought at boutique years ago) that sound similar to the material on the box you are talking about. I have a limited amount of my VCA boxes and storage cases here where we are living part-time. Most are in storage right now. All of my VCA pieces are here with me but none of the boxes, etc. Can you post a photo or pm the photo?

Here they are . . .

 

[swisshera]

Here they are . . .

I was just reading your first post and just can't help wondering - if you took it to the VCA store and shown them that the LOA is fake, I don't understand the point of anyone providing a fake document to an authentic piece, when the piece itself should speak louder than the certificate. If someone is the original owner or someone is sure that piece is authentic, they can pay the fees and wait for the authentication service from VCA. Not having papers don't make a piece fake, but having a fake paper does attract more negative attention. Just a thought.

 

[Deleted member 626500]

I was just reading your first post and just can't help wondering - if you took it to the VCA store and shown them that the LOA is fake, I don't understand the point of anyone providing a fake document to an authentic piece, when the piece itself should speak louder than the certificate. If someone is the original owner or someone is sure that piece is authentic, they can pay the fees and wait for the authentication service from VCA. Not having papers don't make a piece fake, but having a fake paper does attract more negative attention. Just a thought.

I did not show them that the LOA is fake. I don't know if it's fake and VCA won't check their records to verify that they issued the LOA unless I go through the whole authentication process which will take at least 6 months, at which point I will lose any remedy I may have to dispute the charge. As you point out, VCA would never provide a LOA for a fake necklace. Independent of the LOA which looks fine to me--but what do I know--I have doubts about the necklace.

 

[kewave]

Very well said. Not only that, it really hits the nail on the head.

However, (and as an aside), I understand that counterfeiters will buy an authentic alhambra necklace that's relatively inexpensive, such as onyx or MOP, pop out the stones, and replace them with turquoise plastic . . . When examined, it appears authentic, and of course it is, albeit with one glaring exception. Other counterfeiters are using MOP dyed to look like another stone, and the chain will be made out of silver with an 18k gold plated wash.
That's why I mentioned that this does test as 18K gold and the stones were determined to be authentic and uniform in color.
My jeweler does repairs for VCA, and my SA has been with VCA since the Arpels brothers owned it. Both examined it and were of the opinion it is authentic. The SA was also of the opinion that the LOA is authentic. That's why I'm on the fence.
I've been told to just enjoy it, but unfortunately based on my work I approach everything with the worst case scenario . . .

Your subsequent post is very confusing. I will be very surprised if VCA sent their items to 3rd party jeweler for repairs...but if you meant your jeweler repairs VCA from other walk-in customers then it doesn’t mean anything becos there are super fakes floating around and even some SA couldn’t tell them apart, Also if your SA is there since Arpels brothers owned it, then you should have confidence in his/her assurance but you remain uncomfortable becos of a box.
Moreover, if you approach everything with worst case scenario then you should refrain from buying the item from secondary market becos the stress is not worth it!

 

[Madame Lapin]

+1 @kewave @swisshera

Once reread your original post, I realised you mentioned the LOAs in general can be faked, you didn’t necessarily mean the LOA which accompanied your purchase?That is true anything can be faked, but for example I don’t think I’m able to look at a LOA and easily ascertain whether it is fake or not. And I would have thought the easiest way to tell is for your SA to check the serial number in the system. And since your SA who is with the firm for that long can’t convince you it is authentic, no one on this forum will be able to cast your doubt aside either.

 

[Deleted member 626500]

Your subsequent post is very confusing. I will be very surprised if VCA sent their items to 3rd party jeweler for repairs...but if you meant your jeweler repairs VCA from other walk-in customers then it doesn’t mean anything becos there are super fakes floating around and even some SA couldn’t tell them apart, Also if your SA is there since Arpels brothers owned it, then you should have confidence in his/her assurance but you remain uncomfortable becos of a box.
Moreover, if you approach everything with worst case scenario then you should refrain from buying the item from secondary market becos the stress is not worth it!

+1 @kewave @swisshera

Once reread your original post, I realised you mentioned the LOAs in general can be faked, you didn’t necessarily mean the LOA which accompanied your purchase?That is true anything can be faked, but for example I don’t think I’m able to look at a LOA and easily ascertain whether it is fake or not. And I would have thought the easiest way to tell is for your SA to check the serial number in the system. And since your SA who is with the firm for that long can’t convince you it is authentic, no one on this forum will be able to cast your doubt aside either.

First, thank you for your comments and your interest.
A couple of remarks; just becasue the serial number is in the system doesn't mean the necklace is authentic. Counterfeiters use a correct serial number for a piece, so it passes a cursory review at the store level. I've seen pieces where they've used the serial number from a pave frivole earring, for a counterfeit pave frivole earring. It seems authentic, even though it isn't.

Second, even experts can be fooled. My jeweler (who is on contract w VCA to do repairs for VCA--not just walk-ins) thought it was fine, but there are some issues with the necklace I won't go into that make me suspicious. It's not his money and he's not as motivated as I am, so that's not enough to reassure me particulary given the amount at issue. Also, many of the SA's-including those directly working for VCA have only a sales background. They have no background in jewelry and no knowledge of the brand-it's as deep as the current collection. To really know, they need to know what clasp was used when, how the design has changed (and the Alhambra has over time), and the different manufacturing techniques that have been used. Much of this I recognize from my own collection, the majority of which I wouldn't have unless I bought from secondary sources. If I've learned anything, it's that I should be suspecious. Sometimes it's the reputable jeweler who can most easily pass off a counterfeit, simply because they're trusted. You may not remember the Harry Winston case--he switched out a 20-carat diamond sent for cleaning, figuring he could get away with it--the woman swore it was a different diamond and it was.
Independent of being concerned, I'm also curious. How thorough are these counterfeiters? Given the prices these items command, I suspect they'll go to any length . . . Meanwhile, I will continue to investigate and I will keep you posted.

 

[etoupebirkin]

Happyish,
If something makes you unfordable with this transaction, then trust your instincts and return the necklace. Why beat yourself up about this? Another necklace will probably come along or something else for that matter.
Though, I've never bought anything other than through VCA, I've bought lots of Hermes on the secondary market. I always authenticate Birkins and Kellys. But I also trust me instincts.

 

[Deleted member 626500]

Happyish,
If something makes you unfordable with this transaction, then trust your instincts and return the necklace. Why beat yourself up about this? Another necklace will probably come along or something else for that matter.
Though, I've never bought anything other than through VCA, I've bought lots of Hermes on the secondary market. I always authenticate Birkins and Kellys. But I also trust me instincts.

Dear Etoupebirkin, excellent advice.
I reached that conclusion last night. However, before returning this, I'm trying to pursue one other resource, if for other reason than to learn from this and to become a better and more discerning buyer.
Instinct isn't impulsive. It's based on information, culled from experience. I'm hoping to gain some confidence that I can make an informed and intelligent choice going forward, and if it takes an expert appraiser, so be it . . .

 

[Madame Lapin]

First, thank you for your comments and your interest.
A couple of remarks; just becasue the serial number is in the system doesn't mean the necklace is authentic. Counterfeiters use a correct serial number for a piece, so it passes a cursory review at the store level. I've seen pieces where they've used the serial number from a pave frivole earring, for a counterfeit pave frivole earring. It seems authentic, even though it isn't.

Second, even experts can be fooled. My jeweler (who is on contract w VCA to do repairs for VCA--not just walk-ins) thought it was fine, but there are some issues with the necklace I won't go into that make me suspicious. It's not his money and he's not as motivated as I am, so that's not enough to reassure me particulary given the amount at issue. Also, many of the SA's-including those directly working for VCA have only a sales background. They have no background in jewelry and no knowledge of the brand-it's as deep as the current collection. To really know, they need to know what clasp was used when, how the design has changed (and the Alhambra has over time), and the different manufacturing techniques that have been used. Much of this I recognize from my own collection, the majority of which I wouldn't have unless I bought from secondary sources. If I've learned anything, it's that I should be suspecious. Sometimes it's the reputable jeweler who can most easily pass off a counterfeit, simply because they're trusted. You may not remember the Harry Winston case--he switched out a 20-carat diamond sent for cleaning, figuring he could get away with it--the woman swore it was a different diamond and it was.
Independent of being concerned, I'm also curious. How thorough are these counterfeiters? Given the prices these items command, I suspect they'll go to any length . . . Meanwhile, I will continue to investigate and I will keep you posted.

@Happyish Glad to hear you made the decision which gave you the peace of mind. Undoubtedly even with the slightest doubt you won't enjoy the piece, not to mention the money that was paid for it. It is true counterfeits can be super sophisticated, as you pointed out

 

[Toronto24]

Here they are . . .

I have boxes like this from the boutique

 

[Deleted member 626500]

I have boxes like this from the boutique

Made out of microfiber?
All of mine are made of suede . . . this is microfiber.

 

[bags to die for]

As promised, my VA bracelet family.

 

[Madame Lapin]

As promised, my VA bracelet family.

View attachment 4370825

@bags to die for that pink opal is such a beauty, what a great decision you made!