SaleArea guides

[Hyacinth]

PAGE 2
THE CENTERED C RULE or THE C'S ARE PERFECTLY STRAIGHT RULE
MOSTLY true, with plenty of exceptions. The center seam or a line down the front of a bag with Signature or Op Art C's should usually divide it into 2 halves that are mirror images of each other.
But:
Sometimes the back isn't correctly centered like style 10483 and the front is mistaken for the back.

Some C patterns on styles like some older Scribble Hobos don't follow the rule.

Some Messenger Bags like # 70077, Heritage Stripe Crossbody Messenger have NOTHING centered.

Most Signature Tartan Plaid bags and accessories made for the outlets in 2010 and 2011 don't follow the Rule, like #15229, 15485 and a bunch more.

Some older bags with Shearling Lamb trim from 2005 like 8K47, 8K48, have the C's set at a 45-degree angle, and so do some of the coated Canvas items sold at the outlets in and around 2011.

Many fabric patterns don't or won't follow the Rule, like almost all the Scarf Pattern items, and ALL the Optic Signature items where you couldn't line them up if you tried because the pattern is designed to make the C's look randomly scattered all over the fabric.

Many newer patterns and embossed leathers from 2011 don't seem to follow any sort of alignment rules either.

If you're not sure what these styles and patterns look like, Search for them on Ebay. Ask at the ATC thread if you're not sure.


THE C'S SHOULD MATCH AT THE SEAMS RULE
They often do on bags with straight up & down sides, but it's almost impossible to match them along curved seams. This "rule" should be ignored, just like...

THE C'S SHOULDN'T BE CUT THROUGH ALONG THE SEAMS
I don't know who came up with this one but they must have gotten Coach confused with Louis Vuitton. It's IMPOSSIBLE to cut and sew a regular Signature or Mini-Sig pattern without cutting through Cs. Try it sometime.


THE C'S OUTSIDE - NO C'S INSIDE RULE
MOSTLY TRUE, with exceptions. When the outside fabric is predominantly Signature Cs of any kind or the Coach name or logo, the inside of the bag should NEVER have Signature C, Op Art or any other name or logo lining. A lot of counterfeiters do this and it's a huge red flag. To make it worse, they use some amazingly bad fabrics and patterns for their fake linings, like shiny mini-C pattern acetate in many older bags, and a cheap printed C or Op Art C pattern in newer ones.
THE EXCEPTIONS - very few when the outside Cs take up more than half the bag's fabric surface. The Wave Gallery bags from the mid-2000s #s 1439, 1441 and a few others are among the rare exceptions. If there are C's or logos outside and inside, don't bid. (BTW, this does NOT apply to wallets which sometimes have Cs in & out).

The more the maker seems to be trying to convince you that it's a Coach, the more cautious you should be.





THE PATCHWORK FRONT AND BACK RULE
True, all Patchwork bags & accessories should have the same patchwork on both front and back. If one side is Signature C fabric, it's counterfeit. Ask here for authentication.


THE "COACHES ARE ALWAYS PERFECT" RULE
Not in my lifetime or in yours. Perfection costs money, how much are you willing to spend? This AIN'T Louis Vuitton, folks.

Coach plant employees make plenty of mistakes, especially in new plants, some of the stitching at early Chinese plants was more like waves than lines. Older bags had plenty of mistakes too, especially in how the creeds and serial numbers were stamped. Sometimes even the wrong style or serial number was stamped, but any bag with that kind of mistake needs to be authenticated here at tPF before buying or selling. That's a good reason for sellers to show a full set of photos of their items, inside and out including the creed. NO ONE SHOULD EVER BUY ANY COACH ITEM, NEW OR USED, WITHOUT SEEING A FULL SET OF PHOTOS INCLUDING A READABLE CREED AND SERIAL NUMBER IF PRESENT.

THE "COACHES ARE ONLY MADE IN..." RULES
Depends. Coach bags have been made in the USA, Italy, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, Mexico, Hungary, Turkey, Thailand, China, India, and Vietnam. Coach is also making bags in the Philippines, Myanmar, and other countries where they can find cheap labor, and they have made accessories like wallets in even more places such as France, Spain and others. Only the Asian plants except for Thailand are still active at this time (2018). Production moved almost completely to China starting in 2000 although a few handbags and some travel and business items had been made there for several years already, and all Signature C fabric bags are only made in China and the other Asian plants and have only been made since 2000. Any Signature C bag with a year code from before 2000, or with a plant code or place of origin that indicates it was made in the US, is counterfeit.


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[Hyacinth]

PAGE 3

THE "INSIST ON A RECEIPT" RULE
Useless. Someone can buy one genuine bag, or wallet, or keychain, and dozens of fakes in the same style, and then just send a copy of the receipt for the genuine item - or maybe from a totally different item, and if the buyer can't read the style and color codes, she or he will probably never know. But even better from the professional fakes-seller's point of view is that fake receipts are available all over the internet, for any imaginable brand. That's why Ebay doesn't accept receipts as proof of authenticity.

THE NO SPACES / UNEVEN NUMBERS / FLAWS IN SERIAL NUMBERS RULE
Nope, this doesn't mean it's fake, except it may be a red flag on some recent bags made after the mid-2000s. Plenty of older genuine bags have mistakes.


THE NO PLASTIC ZIPPERS RULE
Nonsense! Plastic (actually nylon) zippers were used in many bags from at least as early as the 80s and 90s. Most were used on the inside pockets especially in the Lightweights line, but the early 1990s Sheridans and probably Dakotas used them on the outside too. There were plenty of cases where Coach wanted to either reduce the weight of the hardware or color-match the zipper to the leather or lining colors. And modern Coaches still use plenty of nylon / plastic zippers.


THE "IF YOU CAN'T FIND IT ON GOOGLE OR ON COACH'S WEBSITE, IT'S FAKE" RULE
This one just doesn't make sense. First of all, Google is a Search Engine. It picks up anything fed into it, real or fake. Second, Google was only started in around 1999, if memory serves. So trying to find something on Google that may have been made and sold before Google even existed (or in some cases, before the INTERNET even existed) is an exercise in futility. Even with newer items, unless they've been posted someplace on the 'net other than Coach's website, Google won't pick them up.
Second, Coach has only had a website for about the same time, maybe less. They no longer have any public archive of older styles or style numbers, and the ONLY things on their website are items CURRENTLY IN STOCK IN THE COUNTRY WHERE THE WEBSITE IS LOCATED and available for sale. So that makes maybe a few hundred current items you may be able to find on their website, versus everything else made or sold in the last 60-plus years that ISN'T there. So what does searching Coach - or Google - prove? Anyone who uses either one to determine authenticity is pretty much wasting their time.


THE "IF THE SELLER SAYS IT'S AUTHENTIC, IT HAS TO BE" RULE
Sorry to have to say this. PEOPLE LIE. And some people wouldn't recognise a counterfeit Coach if it said "FAKE" in 6-inch high neon letters.


THE "IF IT HAS A COACH PRICE TAG AND ALL THE PAPERWORK AND AN AUTHENTICITY CARD, IT'S REAL" RULE
Why does that this Rule assume that counterfeiters can't copy a piece of paper? Or a gift box, or a dustbag, or a piece of wrapping tissue? Or can't stick a fake Care Card in a wallet? (There's no such thing as a valid "Authenticity Card", BTW, no piece of paper can EVER prove a Coach is genuine).
When someone's counterfeiting $400 handbags, they're fools if they don't include the fake paperwork - that's one of the ways they get all those professional fakes sellers to keep buying inventory from them. And the fakes-makers are pros too, not some little Mom-and-Pop business run out of a shack. Professional criminal organizations aren't going to cut corners like that, they wouldn't be around long. It would be like making fake hundred-dollar bills with pictures of Bozo The Clown. How hard is it to copy a few pieces of paper?
ANYTHING A MAKER CAN MAKE, A FAKER CAN FAKE.


THE "IF IT'S PRICED TOO CHEAP IT MUST BE FAKE " RULE
Not always - quite a few very honest Ebay sellers start their listings low, even as low as 99 cents, to generate interest and attract bidders.

Low price can be a warning in some cases though, like a seller who sells dozens of the same style wallet or keychain, and often for the same price or less that the lowest prices available at the outlets or during special sales. Multiple listings for the same styles can be a big red flag. Have them authenticated.


THE "ALL CREEDS AND HANGTAGS SHOULD BE EXACTLY LIKE EACH OTHER" RULE
Coach details including creeds, hangtags, stitching, etc can ONLY be compared to exactly the same style number bag made in the exact same plant, month and year. Details change constantly, and any Rule that was written with one style or one production year as an example has NO relevance to any other style or year. Saying that all bags should have the same hangtag as someone's 2007 Carly is sheer lunacy. Many Guides say that "all metal hangtags are fake" and that isn't true either, quite a few genuine bags have had metal, and on a few styles even plastic, hangtags. And some sellers get metal hangtags from Coach to replace lost ones.

Coach is constantly changing, and as a lovely Coachie named Denimbarks often reminded us, "the only consistent thing about Coach is their inconsistency".
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[Hyacinth]

page 4

THE "YOU CAN VERIFY IT'S REAL BY CALLING COACH OR TAKING IT TO A COACH STORE" RULE
OK, this is a tough one, and causes some of the worst problems.
Coach's employees especially the SA's and store managers are lovely, hardworking people - but they shouldn't be trying to authenticate what they've never been trained to analyze. They have no training from Coach about even the most basic signs of fakes unless they're items currently on their shelves, they don't have the time to spend 4 to 8 hours a day studying photos, comparing details between multiple photos of the same style bag, keeping files of each and every style number and factory and manufacturing code they can find on Ebay, saving literally thousands of photos and tens of thousands of lines of text posted by Coach experts and poring over photos with a magnifying glass to spot discrepancies and incorrect details, and spending a small fortune on back issues of catalogs that tell them when something was made (their computer files don't go much past 2000) and what details a potential fake might be missing.

And to make it worse, the info on their computers is very limited - they can look up a style number of most recent full-price items and tell you when they were made and what colors were available. But the full-price stores' computers don't have records of the Made-For-Factory (outlet) items at all, so any item made for and bought from the outlet won't even be in their system. When told that they can't find it on their computers, the person who brought the item in naturally assumes it must be fake.

And what if it has a legit style number - let's use the Big Daddy of Fakes, NT-4903 as an example. If someone brings a fake with that number into a store and the personnel punch in the style number it comes up as a Sonoma Flap bag. So the number's in the system and it must be real? But the store personnel may have never seen that style bag since it's over 20 years old and they don't realize that it isn't a Sonoma Flap and doesn't look anything like one. The computer has no information at all on the prefix, which can't be looked up for any item (the prefix is where all the factory codes are). The fact that N isn't a valid month code, T isn't a valid plant code, and there's no year code at all between the two letters means absolutely nothing to their computer.

So because of no training and no effective computer records, my estimate would be that from what I've seen or read in these forums by posters who have already gone through this kind of experience, at least 80 percent of items taken to a Coach store are misidentified, and almost always it's genuine bags especially older classic leather bags or bags from the outlet stores being ID'd as fakes. So buyers unfairly accuse sellers of selling fakes, honest sellers get claims filed against them for refunds, maybe receive negative Feedback, dinged stars, and may lose some of their discounts or have their fees raised and even get put on listing restrictions. And many of them did nothing wrong. We've also been told that unofficial triple-secret Coach company policy is to tell employees to tell anyone who mentions that they got the item from Ebay that the item is fake.

It's even worse by phone. If the store employees can at least see the bag, how is someone at the other end of a blind phone line supposed to be any more accurate? Even if she knew as much as some of our Ebay Coachies, she's still literally working blind without being able to examine the item, and even Skype won't be of any use. What's even more disturbing is that employees who are unable to effectively authenticate anything still keep doing it, especially when Coach's website clearly says "Coach DOES NOT authenticate merchandise or determine whether serial numbers match actual Coach items" So why doesn't Coach enforce that rule?

I'm sorry to have to say it, but one of the worst places anyone should ever have any Coach authenticated is a Coach store. And thinking that a style name given over the phone by an employee who just punches 4 or 5 numbers into a computer is a valid authentication is just wishful thinking.


So those are some of the most mis-quoted Rules, and the reasons why very few of them are valid. One of the most important Rules in today's world is still "Don't believe everything you read or see on the Internet."

Unlike what way too many of these Guides would have you believe, there are no one or two or even three magic details that can ever prove a Coach is genuine. Proving something's a fake is sometimes easy, but proving something's genuine requires knowledge of Coach's production codes and sometimes plant and style history, and often photos of or a known genuine version of the item being authenticated for comparison. No one can read a Guide and instantly become a Coach expert, there's real work and research involved just like with most things worth learning.

And I hope that clarifies why those "authenticity guides" are so dangerous - not just because their information is usually totally wrong, but because authenticating a bag invovles so much more than just looking at a zipper, or seeing if the numbers in the serial are lined up straight! There are dozens of different things to analyze and if someone isn't familiar with that exact bag or family and also with Coach's designs and production methods during the time period the bag was supposedly made, they can't make an educated authentication. Just because a friend has one or two Coaches and tells you that yours can't be real because they don't look like hers doesn't mean she has a clue about what she's saying. There are no simple Rules and it requires an lot of experience and actual research to be able to authenticate some of the trickier bags and wallets - and spot the fakes.

(published 2011, updated May 2018 by Hyacinth)


Once the Salearea Guides are posted, feel free to share the links with other Coachies who may find them useful, but they remain the intellectual property of Salearea, Hyacinth, and tPF and any re-posting of them anywhere else must give full credit to the creators of these Salearea Guides, including a link back to this page here at tPF if allowed. The same basic rules apply to any other Guides posted here.

 

[Hyacinth]

3- Coach Creeds - the Basic Facts - SALEAREA COACH GUIDES

*by "Hyacinth" for Salearea

This was the first in a series of Guides that Salearea posted to help the many lovers of Coach's products understand a bit more about them and to clear up some of the misinformation often found on the Internet.

The "Creed" is a good place to start. This is the famous statement stamped into the pocket or onto a leather patch that's sewn into the inside of the Coach bag that usually begins "This is a Coach Bag..." and then details the materials used in the bag, sometimes states where it was made, and in newer bags ends with Coach's assurance of their commitment to Enduring Quality. Coach started using the Creed stamp sometime around the mid-1970s, right around the time that iconic designer Bonnie Cashin left the company. Before that there might only be an add-on metal emblem or simple stamp with the Coach logo, or a Cashin label and striped lining..

Over the years there have been many changes to the wording, design, fonts and layout of the creed statement. In the early days they didn't even have serial numbers, these weren't used until some time in the later 1970s to early 1980s. (Many of the dates are educated guesses since Coach doesn't make their records public and only someone who has actually kept records and photos going back that far can make accurate estimates of the dates involved.) Early creeds mentioned the natural "scars, scratches, veins and wrinkles" of Coach's glove-tanned leather, and this appeared in most vintage (20 years old or more) Coach bags and briefcases. Since early Coach bags were unlined the creed was stamped right into the leather usually of the back inside pocket.


Once serial numbers began to be used, they originally had 7 numbers with the abbreviation for Number "No" in front (serials without that "No" in front usually mean Korean-made fakes), then 3 numbers, a dash, and 4 more numbers (No 123-4567). Somewhere around 1989-1990 they changed to 4 numbers, the dash and 3 numbers (No 1234-567) and this format was used until 1994. (There are also a handful of bags from 1991-92 that still used the older 3+4 number format). The serial numbers were completely random and had nothing at all to to with the style number of the bags, so there's no way to learn the style number from the serial number of a bag made before 1994. Every all-number serial was unique to each bag and never repeated, multiple bags with exactly the same all-number serials are very probably fake. (Serial numbers are a complicated subject and one that I'll cover in another post.)


At first all Coaches were made in the original factory in New York City, and the early creeds say "Made in New York City, U.S.A." on the bottom. When Coach began adding new plants in the late 1980s, the wording at the bottom of the creed was changed starting in 1988 to "Made In The United States". Production at the NYC plant was eventually stopped so that the building could be used as Coach's corporate Headquarters. All this happened shortly after the owners who had built up Coach as a handbag and fine leatherware maker sold the company to Sara Lee in 1985. New plants were quickly added including one in Puerto Rico which was still considered a U.S. plant. Coach opened retail locations in Japan and other countries and opened their first outlet stores starting around 1990.


Then in 1991 Coach began producing several lines of pebbled leather bags in Italy. The early line called Dakota Classics had a creed patch and statement unique to that style bag, but no serial numbers at all. Then came the Sheridan line which was made in Italy, the US and also Costa Rica, some with, and some without, serial numbers. The country the bag was made in was still noted on the bottom line of the creed, which on these bags was now a separate stamped leather patch sewn onto the lining or right onto the inside back pocket.


Starting in 1994, the creed and serial number formats went through a major change. The country of manufacture was now stated in the second sentence of the creed, although the change was stretched out over about 18 months so some older or smaller plants would still be using the old format with the plant location at the bottom of the creed statement until some time in 1996. The serial numbers were completely changed to show the month (a letter of the alphabet between A and M), year ("4" for 1994, up to "3" for 2003), and plant of manufacture (this could be either a letter or a number). The format has stayed pretty much the same since then although when 2004 rolled around a zero had to be put in front of the old 1-digit month code so as not to create confusion - bags made in 2004 (except for some bags from Costa Rica) or later have 2-digit codes matching the last 2 numbers of the actual calendar year 2005=05, 2010=10, etc). Plant codes have been expanded to 2 digits, and style numbers to 5 digits in late 2006. Other codes such as "F" in front of the style code indicating an item had been made for the Factory Store outlets (MFF=Made For Factory) can also appear on many Coach styles. Major changes like that sometimes meant mistakes were made, and there are a surprising number of genuine Coach bags where the serial number got a bit mixed up - have them authenticated here if you're not sure about them.


Coach's creeds change constantly. There are no "rules" that accurately state how a creed should look, what it should say, how it should be stamped, how many digits should be in the serial number - and like everything else with Coach, what seems like a common "rule" will ALWAYS have exceptions. Generally creeds should be evenly stamped, the edges should be cut absolutely straight, the numbers should be even, etc. But older creeds and serial numbers were hand-stamped, each plant had its own individual stamps, and often numbers WERE uneven or even different sizes. The original pebbled leather Sonoma bags from the mid-1990s had probably the sloppiest creeds in Coach's history, but that doesn't mean they were fake.

Newer styles have much more consistency, but creeds, like serial numbers, are a really complicated subject and figuring out whether unusual features in a creed mean the bag is counterfeit should ALWAYS be left to Coach experts. There are several places where expert opinions can be found, here at tPF (the BEST place on the 'net for authentication!) and Ebay's Fashion Forum/Discussion Board, found here:
https://community.ebay.com/t5/Fashion/bd-p/fashion

It's usually safe to say that if there are misspellings, incorrect punctuation, run-together words like "thefinestdetails" or "superiorcraftsmanship", sloppy uneven stitching, uneven edges, English that came from a bad translation program, or a description that doesn't match the actual bag such as a creed saying the bag is made of glove-tanned cowhide when it's really made of Signature C fabric, there's a very good chance the item is counterfeit. Have it authenticated here. There are a huge number of fake Coaches in circulation and some of them can fool even the experts - don't take that chance!

The details of the creed are VERY important in proving or disproving authenticity. Sellers need to show clear, readable close ups (use your camera's Macro setting) of the creed, and buyers need to insist on seeing creed photos before deciding to bid or buy. Ask here or at Ebay's forums first, before you buy OR before you think a creed doesn't follow the "rules" and you report it as fake.

Remember, not all Coach bags will have creeds! Smaller bags like Minis, Crossbodys, Pouches, Swingpacks, etc, may or may not have creeds, which may or may not have serial numbers. And styles made before the mid-1970s or during the Bonnie Cashin Era (1962 to 1974) probably won't have creeds at all. If some seller claims that her item is "Cashin-era" and it has a creed stamp or a serial number, she's not correct.

(published 2011, updated May 2018)

 

[Hyacinth]

4-Coach Serial Numbers - the Basic Facts - SALEAREA COACH GUIDES


*by “Hyacinth” for Salearea

Coach serial numbers can be confusing, and are constantly changing. They, along with the creed patch or stamp (that thing that begins “This is a Coach Bag...” stamped inside every full-size Coach handbag and some but by no means all accessories like Pouches, Swingpacks, and other smaller items) are also the most useful and dependable parts of any Coach bag in helping determine age, style, origin and especially authenticity.

Unfortunately there's so much misinformation about serial numbers that it's getting harder and harder to find accurate information. Many so-called "authenticity guides" spout that all serials must follow such-and-such a rule, which is absolute NONSENSE. Serial numbers have been changing almost since they originated, and there are no “rules" that apply to even a small percentage of them at any one time.

The Coach creed came first - it began to be stamped in Coach bags some time in the mid to late 1970s, a few years after Bonnie Cashin left Coach in 1974. There's no verified date when Coach began numbering their bags but late 1970s seems to be close. The first numbers were all numbers - the always-present "No" (with the "o" underscored) for "Number", followed by 3 numbers, a dash and then four more numbers. (Serial numbers without a "No" in front and with less than 7 digits are almost always Korean-made fakes - Coach has NEVER made handbags, wallets or briefcases in Korea). The order was completely random and every bag had its own unique number, so any time the same exact number appears in more than one bag, it's an absolute certainty that at least one, and probably both, of the numbers AND bags are counterfeit. Good examples are "308-9875” and “123-3445” but there are many others, Daria48 has an excellent list of some of the most commonly-used fake serial numbers, which will be posted here soon. (Some early bags from the 1970s era had numbers that were just stamped into a long thin strip of leather and then glued under the creed stamp, and those would sometimes come loose with wear.) The style number was NOT part of the serial number before 1994.

Up until the end of the 1990s, the serial numbers were mostly hand-stamped using a mechanism that allowed the operator to change numbers quickly, and often in early Coaches you can see the top or bottom of the next number in line above or below the actual serial number (the forum term for that is "overstamping). And rarely in the late 1980s the dash between the two halves was skipped over and a string of 8 numbers would be stamped. Neither of these production glitches means that the bag is a fake although we've actually seen some fakes with phony overstamping marks, and neither did numbers that were off-center, angled, or bumping into the border of the creed statement. Contrary to what all too many “guides” say, early Coaches were NOT perfect and uneven numbers are NOT always signs of a fake. But they still need to be checked by an expert since the same things can be found in fakes.

Changes came in the late 1980s. Along with a change of ownership, Coach also made changes to both the creeds and the serial numbers. Starting in 1988, instead of the “Made in New York City, U.S.A.” stamp, the addition of new plants meant a change in the creed to “Made in the United States” or "Made in the U.S.A." up until the early 1990s when off-shore plants in Italy and Costa Rica were added and the wording changed again to show the country. The serial number also changed during the 1989-1990 period and now was “No” followed by FOUR numbers, a dash and three more numbers, although some bags from 1991-1992 still have the old 3+4 number format for some reason. As before, none of these numbers have ANY significance - they don’t indicate the date or plant and most important, they don’t include the style number! Any serial number from before 1994 that’s all numbers does NOT include the style number and can’t be used to identify or authenticate the bag. It doesn’t mean that a bag is fake if the last three or four digits don’t seem to belong to the right style - they’re not supposed to.

To create even more confusion, some bags don’t have serial numbers at all. Coach made several lines of pebbled leather Spectator-style bags in the early 1990s that break that “rule” too. The Dakota family was pebbled, unlined, and made in Italy, and none of them had serial numbers. Right behind them came the Sheridans - also pebbled but with a textured taupe fabric lining and made in the U.S., Italy, or Costa Rica, and about a third of them didn’t have numbers either although both lines used sewn-in creed patches that were unique to those two style families.

The next major change started in 1994. Production codes and the bag’s style number now became part of the serial. The first digit was the month code, always a letter of the alphabet and supposed to include only A through M, although a few mistakes were made and a rare “N” might slip through. (The letter “i” was usually avoided because it was too easy to confuse it with the number 1, but a few slipped through). The second digit, always supposed to be a number, was the year the bag was made. Since the new formatting began in 1994, “4” was the first year code used, and single digits would continue to be used for a decade - “0” for the year 2000, “3” for 2003, etc. In 2004 a Zero was added to differentiate between 1994 and 2004 (except for some Costa Rica bags) and to match the actual year abbreviation, and that continues to the present with the Zero changing to a One in 2010 so that the code for 2010 is “10”. The year code is still the 2 center digits in the first half of the serial number.

The third or last digit was supposed to be the plant code, originally a letter of the alphabet but with the expansion to Turkey, China and beyond, Coach ran out of letters and began using single numbers. Since the original New York City plant was closed before the new codes began and only a very small production area may have been left at that location for things like sample bags, repairs and possible production emergencies, there are only a very small number of bags that might have used the A code that would have belonged to the original NYC location, and they should always be carefully authenticated. (NOTE - This is a correction to the earlier Guide). “B, C and D” stood for the US plants that took over from the NYC plant. And although Coach had several "floater" plant codes and stamps that would be sent to any plant that might need them temporarily such as "M", usually a contradiction between the plant code digit and the country actually named in the creed means the bag has a discrepancy that needs to be examined and authenticated. The actual plant codes weren’t made public but a few Coachies have figured them out pretty well.

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(As of May 1st, 2018, this one Guide escaped the purge and was still at Ebay, but needs updating)
http://www.ebay.com/gds/Coach-Serial-Numbers-the-Basic-Facts-/10000000034886433/g.html

And Part One ONLY of Daria48's Coach Fake Serial Numbers List is still posted here at Ebay's UK site, but needs to be updated, there are dozens of posts in the Answers To Authenticity Questions thread over the last 2 years with updated numbers:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/gds/Fake-Coach-Serial-Numbers-NT-4903-and-more-/10000000002744619/g.html

 

[Hyacinth]

Page 2

Coach bags have been made in the USA, Italy, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, Mexico, Hungary, Turkey, Thailand, China, India, and Vietnam. Coach is also making bags in the Philippines, Myanmar, and other countries where they can find affordable labor, and they have made accessories like wallets in even more places such as France and Spain among others. Only the Asian plants (except for Thailand) are still active at this time (2018). Production moved almost completely to China starting in 2000 although some Business and Travel items were made there as early as 1995. All Signature C fabric bags were only made in China and the other Asian plants, and have only been made since 2000. Any Signature C bag with a year code from before 2000, or with a plant code or place of origin that indicates it was made in the US, is almost sure to be counterfeit. And any bag or wallet that says it was "Made In Korea" IS fake - Coach has never had any plants making handbags in Korea. Korea-stamped briefcases and travel bags are probably also all fake but we need to see more examples to be 100 percent sure.

The second half of the number, after the dash, was now the product’s Style number and was usually four digits long, but some bags and accessories had 3-digit style numbers, like some early Scribble bags. If something like an older-style Cabin Bag from the Travel line only had a 3-digit style number (502), a Zero would sometimes (but not always - it depended on the year!) be added in front of it to make four digits. So a Cabin Bag made in the “B” plant in March 1994 would have a serial of C4B-0502. (BTW, those 3-digit style numbers beginning with -5 or -05 always belonged to items from the Travel and Business lines - any HANDBAGS with serial numbers where the style number starts with -05 such as H4B-0532 are counterfeit). But since there also were some bags with only 3 digits in their style numbers Coach sometimes confused the situation even more by issuing totally different 4-digit style numbers for the same item. Most of this waffling about serial and style numbers took place between 2005 and 2006 and those serial numbers break every so-called “rule” ever written. As one of Ebay’s most respected Pursies once said, “the only consistent thing about Coach is their inconsistency”. Always remember those words and take them to heart.

Coach serial numbers will usually have at least 7 digits with only one exception - items made for the 1996 Summer Olympic Games in Atlanta. Any Coach item that has only 5 or fewer digits in the serial number, and / or is missing the “No” in front of the number, is almost 100 percent certain of being fake. If the creed also says “Made in Korea” the “fake” percentage goes up to 100 percent. Every Coach made in or after 1994 will always have at least three digits in the first half of the number including a one or two-number year code in the center position, although sometimes the plant personnel mixed up the digits in that prefix. If there’s just a letter and a number, or only 2 letters and no number, the item is FAKE - no exceptions. “NT-4903” is the most common example but there are dozens more.

The style number itself has also changed constantly over the years. In 2005 Coach was running out of numbers between 001 and 9999, so they experimented with using a mix of letters and numbers, such as 8F41 for a Scribble Brights Pocket Zip (which also had a style number of 2166 - see the “inconsistency” comment above), and by using up previously unused numbers including some of the 3-digit numbers already mentioned. In late 2006 they finally came to their senses and began using 5-digit all-number style numbers. So now not only is the style number longer, but remember that the year code now also has 2 numbers as of 2004, meaning the minimum number of digits in a serial number has gone up to Nine. Apparently Coach prefers round numbers so in 2006 after realizing that their major expansion into manufacturing in the Far East meant that they were not only out of alphabet letters to use as plant codes, but they’d run out of single numbers as well, all plant codes were changed from one number to two - for instance Italy went from “E” to “12” - and now the minimum number of digits was a nice round “ten”.

“But wait - there’s more!!!” Almost at the same time Coach started to include the letter “F” at the beginning of the style number to indicate when an item had been made specifically for their Factory (outlet) stores - sometimes referred to as “MFF” for “Made For Factory” - and they have added a few MORE codes to confuse things even further, such as a “P” after the style number to indicate a “pilot” bag released in limited numbers to test buyers’ response, and a few other letter codes to indicate what specific retailer the bag was made for.

And that’s the way things sit at the moment (2018, when this guide was updated). But change is inevitable, especially with Coach, and more new codes and more serial number changes will show up sooner or later. So as I mentioned at the beginning, ANY so-called “guide” that claims that serial numbers alwys follow a certain rule or always have “x” number of digits or always have only numbers in them are, to put it politely, full of hot air. Don’t EVER depend on any online Guide that claims that Coach follows certain Rules - they don’t. They make them and almost immediately break them, but so far I’ve only found 2 consistent unbreakable Rules, one of which is that Coach never made bags in Korea. Of course now that they’re moving production out of China to cheaper sources like Vietnam, India, Myanmar, and the Philippines, that Rule may not last long either.

I hope I’ve given the reader an idea of the complexity of that little string of numbers and letters stamped inside every (OK, almost every) bag. Not only can it tell a bag’s history and pedigree, but to an experienced Coach specialist it can tell whather or not the bag is The Real Deal. Just as I said in our other guide about creed patches, DON’T buy from sellers who don’t or won’t show clear photos of the serial number! There are dozens of serials used only by counterfeiters that would never show up in genuine bags, and there are numbers frequently used in both real and fake bags that can raise a red flag. There are even lists of commonly-used fake serial numbers available several places online although Ebay has deleted almost all their user-created guides, and the ladies here at tPF can usually spot a fake or questionable number pretty quickly. Ask for advice here before you bid. And don’t bid unless you can see that number and read the creed statement, as long as the bag opens enough for a camera to fit inside.


(published 2011, updated May 2018)

 

[Hyacinth]

5- Coach and the YKK Zipper Myth - the Basic Facts - SALEAREA COACH GUIDES

By Hyacinth for Salearea
Coach and the YKK Zipper Myth - the Basic Facts


THE BRAND OF ZIPPER ON A COACH ITEM DOES NOT PROVE WHETHER IT'S REAL OR FAKE.

A high percentage of Coach authenticity guides have some reference to the almost-sacred "YKK zippers on a Coach prove it's genuine" myth. Sorry, but that statement is just a myth. A LIE, actually. A piece of stamped metal will never prove a Coach is real, and having a zipper with a different brand name does NOT mean it's fake.

First of all, some facts - Coach has been making bags for a long time, and its early styles - those thick, heavy glove-tanned cowhide beauties - usually had zippers that were as heavy-duty as the leathers. Originally the US-made vintage bags used mostly Talon zippers, Talon being a US-based company famous for durable, high-quality fasteners. Coach even used an "industrial-style" Talon zipper that was set into a blue denim-colored fabric base on many of its early styles from the 70s and 80s.

(While on the subject of zippers - a plastic or nylon zipper in a Coach is NOT the sign of a fake, or even a cheaper product. Coach HAS used plastic/nylon zippers often and for several reasons, one being that they sometimes prefer to have the color of the zipper match the leather or lining it's sewn into. Another reason is to lighten the weight of the bag. Coach has made many efforts over the years to shave unnecessary weight off their handbags because of complaints from buyers of neck, shoulder and back injuries due to carrying heavy purses. They even started an entirely new line in the late 1980s called the Lightweights, which had lighter hardware including zippers and thinner, lightweight leathers. The Lightweights eventually became the Sohos, which still use less-heavy materials and often use less chunky nickel or stainless steel hardware instead of the heavier brass.)

Later Coach added YKK, ECLAIR, RIRI, and possibly ZIPLON and DOVE and even an occasional local brand in bags made outside the US. Some zippers didn't have any maker's name, just maybe a number or a trademark stamp so what company they came from is anyone's guess. Coach's zippers are MOSTLY from YKK right now, but they've used a wide variety of suppliers in the past, and even now not all Coach bags will have YKK zippers. IDEAL stamps are found on many genuine Coaches today. No Coach should ever be assumed to be fake or be reported as fake just because the zipper isn't stamped YKK.


Common-sense Point #1 - YKK sells to tens of thousands of different manufacturers. YKK is the largest zipper manufacturer in the world. As long as someone can pay the price, they can get the merchandise. They certainly don't sell to Coach exclusively, nor do they expect Coach to use only YKK zippers exclusively. They sell to everyone from LeSportsac to Louis Vuitton, NOT just Coach. And many fakes manufacturers, especially after reading dozens if not hundreds of "Guides" that tell potential buyers "if your Coach bag has YKK zippers, then it's probably real" are more than happy to spend a few extra bucks/grickles/yuan/quatloos to buy that brand if it makes their junk easier to peddle to improperly informed buyers who have been unlucky enough to read and believe the nonsense found in so many of those "authenticity guides".


And if they're NOT ready to spend a bit extra for the real thing, there's always:

Common-sense Point #2 - COUNTERFEIT YKK zippers. Of COURSE YKK zippers are counterfeited - why wouldn't they be? YKK's website warns about the problem and it's a very big one. If a manufacturer of fake Coaches wants to save a few bucks they have no problem at all finding someone who'll supply cheap zippers that look and maybe for a few weeks almost work like real YKKs. Use that Common Sense mentioned previously - How hard is it to fake a zipper?
https://www.ykkfastening.com/brand/counterfeit.html

So when you come across a Guide that gives you that YKK rule, remember the fact that zippers don't prove anything. And that maybe you need to look for a better guide. Because no one single detail, or even 2 or 3 details, can EVER prove by themselves that a Coach is genuine.

Posted 2011, updated May 2018

 

[Hyacinth]

6- AUTHENTIC COACH - VINTAGE AND CLASSIC LEATHER - SALEAREA COACH GUIDES

by Hyacinth for Salearea
AUTHENTIC COACH - VINTAGE AND CLASSIC LEATHER

There is almost as much confusion about Coach's classic leather items from before 2000 as there is about newer styles, especially when it comes to authenticity. This Guide will try to clear up some of it.

COMMON MYTHS AND MISCONCEPTIONS:

Some think that older all-leather bags weren't faked. Not true at all! Coach leather items have been faked for decades, probably at least as far back as the mid to late-1980s. There are a lot more fakes than almost anyone realizes, since the better ones are almost impossible to spot unless the authenticator is familiar with the different kinds of Coach creeds and has a genuine item in the same style to compare it to. As long as a fakes maker was willing to invest some time and money in high-quality leathers and skilled craftspeople, classic Coaches could be surprisingly easy to counterfeit. The major mistake was often what looks like overprocessing, maybe stretching or stressing the leather too much to try and give it that same flexibility and softness as a vintage Coach. The fakes often end up with leather covered in small surface wrinkles that resemble the stretch marks a pregnant woman can get. Some stretching of a well-used genuine bag is normal but usually the stretched "elephant skin" will be in high-stress areas like the bases and bottom corners where a lot of the bag's contents settle and pull at the leather. The stretch marks on the fakes can be all over the bag, and in places where there should be no stresses at all. That kind of unusual leather damage can be a red flag, and is usually found with some strange mistakes in the creed or serial number.

SPEAKING OF LEATHER
Sometimes an older Coach will be branded a fake because the leather is thinner than the classic baseball-glove style leather used for most Coach bags since they started making handbags in 1960. But Coach did make a line of Lightweight bags starting in the late 1980s to try and reduce the weight of the bags and prevent shoulder and back pain. The leathers were thinner, and hardware was kept to a minimum and also made lighter, smaller and thinner, with magnetic snaps often replacing the classic brass turnlocks and plastic or nylon zippers often replacing the old brass ones. Even in modern bags, Coach uses a wide variety of fabrics and leathers, and no one can claim something's counterfeit because the fabric isn't the same as a totally unrelated bag - you have to compare apples and apples. When in doubt, ask at tPF's Authenticate This Coach thread for help.

ZIPPERS
The YKK zipper "rule" has even less validity with older bags than with newer styles. Coach originally used US-made Talon zippers on their classic leather bags, even putting an "industrial-style" heavy duty version in some of their casual bags. While some 1980s and 1990s styles also used YKK, after Coach moved some of its plants to Italy, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, Turkey, Hungary, and Mexico some of those plants may have used local brands from the countries the items were made in. Speaking of Coach plant locations, Coach also had several pilot plants operating in both China (mid-1990s) and Thailand (2000-2003 for mostly business and travel bags) before switching production completely to SE Asia.

And yes, some classic Coaches really did have plastic - actually nylon - zippers.

CELL PHONE HOLDERS
No genuine leather Coach has ever had a cell phone holder sewn on to the outside of the bag. Any time you see a classic leather "Coach" with a big clunky phone holder mounted to one of the sides (the narrow edges) of the bag, hit the Back button.

KOREA
Korea is probably the reigning king of the fakes makers when it comes to classic leather bags and has been for at least 20 years. They've also counterfeited fairly accurate versions of Sheridan-style pebbled leather wallets and accessories. Both small storefront shops and large manufacturers could supply or copy just about any designer bag style and stamp it with whatever brand name a customer wanted. Stories have been posted for years about how easy it is for tourists or US military or service personnel stationed there to get high-quality counterfeit bags. Coach actually had to take legal action against a number of counterfeiters who "jumped" their trademark and tried to register the Coach name to various Korean companies with no connection to Coach. One of the companies named WAKO finally changed the Coach name they'd been putting in their stamped creeds to WAKO after the lawsuit, and once in a great while a WAKO-branded bag will show up on Ebay. They were not made by Coach although some sellers don't know that.

There was also a Korean company who copied many Coach designs and used the name "SportsCoach" in their logos. Many people buy them thinking they're a branch of Coach, but they're not. They were just stealing Coach's name or a version of it, and the Korean courts let them get away with it even after Coach sued them in the mid-1990s. There are still plenty of examples being sold and listed, especially on Poshmark. They even copied the Coach creed and sometimes the "New York" line under the SportsCoach logo even though they had never been out of the R.O.K. until they were sold to gullible buyers. Google "Sportscoach" and you'll find them.

Whether because of the lawsuit or not, Coach has NEVER made bags in Korea. Every "Made In Korea" creed is in a counterfeit, and many of the fakes from that country also drop the "No" from in front of the serial number and just use a simple 5 or 6-number bogus serial, such as 101-01", "201-121", just as examples. Any serial number in this format just screams "Fake". Many of their fakes also use very poor English and the creeds mention "wrinXles" and "marXings".


BEAN BAGS
Sometimes a leather Coach will show up that looks just like a genuine bag, except for one extra word in the creed stamping. It will begin "This is a Coach BEAN Bag...". Coach DID make some genuine bags around 1990 with a "Bean Bag" creed due to a stamping mistake at one of the plants, but that Bean Bag creed was also copied by counterfeiters and sometimes shows up in fakes. All Bean Bag creeds should be authenticated at a dependable source such as here at the Purseforum or at Ebay's Fashion Discussion Board, formerly the Shoes and Purses Board.
http://community.ebay.com/t5/Fashion/bd-p/fashion.

The phony creed seems to have been copied from several small items Coach made around 1990. One was a small but heavy desk paperweight filled with metallic beans, and the other a keyfob with a similar but smaller leather bean-filled bag. Coach created the "Bean Bag" creed for them and stamped them with it, and apparently some fakes maker thought he'd found a perfect Coach creed to copy and had no clue what a Bean Bag actually was or that the creed was Coach's idea of a joke or at least a play on words. So - Bean Bag keyfobs? Cute and collectible, just don't use them with your car keys, too heavy. Bean Bag creeds in handbags? Fake-O.

SERIALS AND CREEDS
Style and serial numbers have already been covered in the Salearea Guides on Coach creeds and Coach serial numbers. Just remember, items from before 1994 don't include style numbers and can't be researched or looked up anywhere using the last 3 or 4 numbers of the serial. Very old handbags going back to the early styles, the Bonnie Cashin bags (1962 to 1974), and bags from the mid-1970s may not have creed stamps and the stamps may not have numbers.

Serial numbers after the late 70s used a format of 3 numbers, a dash, then 4 numbers up to some time in 1991, in a few cases even into 1992 (the date is slightly revised from my earlier Guide after finding more evidence). Then beginning in about 1990 or 1991 the format was switched to 4+3, again all numbers, and all serials were random and unique to each bag or item. Remember that early serial numbers were hand-stamped, and a lot of mistakes in spacing and alignment were made, so don't expect them to look perfect and don't think they're fake if they don't. EARLY COACHES WEREN'T PERFECT. Whoever says they were (and some Authenticity Guides still do) doesn't have much experience with older Coaches.

In 1994 Coach scrapped the old system, adding an alphabetical sequence A thru M (skipping "i") for the month of manufacture, a single number beginning with 4 in 1994 for the year code, and a third digit that could be either a letter or number for the plant where the item was made. To complicate things, very rarely a plant might neglect to "read the memo" and use the "i" or "N" month codes, but so did some fakes manufacturers. Those bags need to be looked at by experts - see the Coach Shopping sub-forum here, or the URL for Ebay's Fashion board. The second half of the serial number became the style number.

Some plants simply ignored the "rules" - early 1990s Dakota pebbled leather bags (they look like Dooney All Weather leather styles) had creeds but no serial numbers, some Sheridans had numbers and some didn't, and the codes for the month and the year sometimes were reversed by plant personnel in both Sheridans and Sonomas. And any Rules about creeds having neat well-aligned stamping and stitching were completely ignored by most plants that made the mid-90s Sonoma line.

go to page 2

 

[Hyacinth]

page 2

FAKES, CODES AND FAKES LISTS
Figuring out if a classic or vintage bag is counterfeit can be incredibly complicated. Since pre-1994 bags don't include the style numbers, it can be hard just trying to decide what style a bag is supposed to be. With no year codes, the age of the bag has to be figured out from the information in the creed stamp, like whether it's stamped "Made in New York City" (probably from before 1988) or "Made In The United States" or "Made In The U.S.A" (probably 1988 or later) or from photos in old catalogs. Some fakes give themselves away by having the wrong creed. The ones after 1994 are a bit easier but it still takes some research and digging through notes, photos and old catalogs to determine if a bag could have been made in the time period shown by the serial number. Obviously, it's best to leave that to an expert who has that kind of library available. Some are obvious though, like ANY Signature C fabric bag with a serial number showing a single-number year code from "4" to "9" since Signature C styles didn't come out until 2000, and none were ever made in US plants so a "Made in the United States" creed would also be a huge red flag.

There are also several up-to-date lists of many of the frequently-used fake serial numbers available here at Ebay and on the internet, broken down by "always fake" and "may be fake, get authenticated". Daria48 will be updating and posting her List, and many fkae numbers can be identified simply by searching tPF for the number, or glancing through the Answers to Authenticity Questions thread.

Authenticating older Coaches can be a real challenge. But they're a pleasure to own because of the classic styles and the quality of the crafting and the leather. Many Coach fans are starting to look for older and vintage bags that may need a bit of TLC and bringing them back to almost-new condition. With some exceptions, unlined older Coach leather bags can be washed, reconditioned and reshaped and some of the signs of age made much less noticeable. Potential buyers need to know what they're getting and how much effort they have to put in, so be sure your sellers always show clear photos of any vintage bag so you can check it for damage and get a clear idea of any flaws before you decide to try a bath and rehab. Googling " coach rehab rescue purseblog " will point anyone considering a rehab in the right direction, or just navigate the main Coach forum here to the Coach Clubhouse and the Rehab And Rescue thread.

Enjoy!

 

[Hyacinth]

7- Coach, Italian Style - the Basic Facts - SALEAREA COACH GUIDES
Coach Italy Guide - Coach Italian Made Bags

*by "Hyacinth" for Salearea

One of the biggest surprises for many Coach "newbies" is learning how many places Coach bags and accessories have actually been made. Shoppers who remember the name from years ago are usually aware that Coach once made bags in the US but are often surprised to learn that many of the products are now made in China. And newer buyers who have only recently discovered the brand usually have no idea that they were once made right in New York City. While both ends of the buyer spectrum have their favorites, a small but growing minority is discovering one of Coach's secrets - the Made In Italy styles that are making fans of many who have been lucky enough to come across them.

Before we narrow things down, let's take a look at a bit of company history and at the countries where Coach bags have been made. The Company started in the US, of course, and began making leather accessories right in Manhattan in 1941. Purses weren't added to the lineup until 1960 but quickly became the company mainstay once women fell in love with the thick, soft cowhide used in the bags. When fashion legend Bonnie Cashin came to work for Coach in the 1960s she introduced many styles and design details still seen in today's Coaches - she left Coach in 1974 but the company kept expanding its sales until by 1987 the Manhattan factory could no longer meet the increasing demand for its handbags. Several new plants in the US starting with Miami and eventually Puerto Rico were added, and the "Made in New York City, U.S.A." stamp on the creed was changed to "Made in the United States".

Since then, Coach bags have been made in Italy, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, Hungary, Mexico, Turkey, Thailand, and most recently China, India, Vietnam, Myanmar, and the Philippines and eventually several other Asian countries. Smaller accessories like wallets have been made in even more places including France and Spain.

Once they'd decided to expand outside the US, Italy was the logical choice. Italian fashion (especially in leather goods) has always been thought of as some of the best in the world and Coach was eager to see what new ideas their Italian partners could come up with to freshen up the product line. The products of the first collaboration appeared in 1992 with the Dakota Classics and Sheridan Collections.

The Dakotas were mostly made in Italy of a unique "box grain" textured leather, thinner and stiffer than the regular cowhide and trimmed with a dark tan smooth leather trim to give them a classic Spectator look. The Dakotas were unlined and usually had a beige inside back pocket made of pigskin which carried a leather patch with the unique Dakota creed statement stamped into it but with NO serial number at all. They were immediately followed by the very similar Sheridan line, which proved hugely popular and was very similar to the Dakotas. The Sheridans were made in Costa Rica and the US as well as Italy and had a more rounded or pebbled leather grain, a taupe fabric lining, and a creed similar to the Dakotas. They were also mainly made in the 2-tone Spectator color combinations although some solid-color versions in colors like black, red and tan were also available.

Both styles were “rule-breakers” in that many Sheridan styles didn’t have serial numbers either, and although both styles used solid brass hardware they also made wide use of plastic or nylon zippers instead of the more usual brass styles. Both styles sometimes used things like zipper pulls and turnlocks that were not used on any other style of Coach bag, and are often mistakenly identified as fakes because they break several (nonexistant!) authenticity “rules”. Care should be taken when buying them though, because some Sheridan styles have been counterfeited. Serial numbers in genuine bags are sometimes poorly stamped and code digits switched, but when they have serial numbers they will be in the standard Coach format of 7 numbers in bags from 1992 and 1993, and the 7-digit letter and number combo that came into use starting in 1994.

To balance out the more casual Sheridans, Coach introduced the Madison line in 1993. The designs were dressier, the hardware sleeker including a reshaped turnlock, the leather was a lovely “caviar grain” that was extremely expensive to make and that strongly resembles the caviar leather used in some Chanel bags and accessories. Like the Sheridans, the leather was stiffer than Coach’s regular glove-tanned leather and available in an array of colors unique to the line. And like most Italian designs, the styles never look out of place or outdated, just classic.

Coach brought out the Sonoma line in 1994 and while not strictly an Italian line, like the Sheridans many Sonomas were also made in Italy as well as Costa Rica and the US. This turned out to be another winning line for Coach, because of the huge variety of sizes, shapes, and especially colors, and the availability of most styles in either smooth-grain pebbled leather or a lovely soft Nubuc leather that felt like a cross between suede and velvet. The leather used in the Sonomas was also very soft and crushable compared to the stiff but incredibly durable and water-resistant leathers of the Dakotas and Sheridans, and the line still has many devoted fans to this day. The Sonoma styles were also faked, but a good authenticator can usually spot fakes easily. One thing that should NEVER be assumed fake though is a sloppy creed patch. For some reason, genuine Sonomas had probably the sloppiest, most poorly cut and most unevenly stamped creed patches in Coach’s history - don’t ever think that because the creed patch is a mess, the bag must be fake!

Coach’s love affair with Italian production and design took a slightly different turn toward the end of the 1990s. A few assorted styles would sometimes show a Made In Italy stamp but that Italian “E” plant was now producing much dressier styles, in classic shapes and unusual leathers. The Bridle line combined simple shapes and sleek silver-color hardware with smooth calfskin trimmed with pigskin for textural contrast and came in several roomy hobo and Tote styles as well as top handles and satchels.

The Bridle line was followed by what was at the time the ultimate in Coach elegance, the Gramercy styles. The leathers were classic black or soft pastels like Wheat and Powder Blue, the bags were lined with a soft suede, the styles were classic handbag shapes like the Hermes-designed Kelly Bag made famous by Princess Grace of Monaco, and the leather was a subtle woven linen-look that hinted at Vuitton’s Epi leather. And like other top-of-the-line collections from Coach they were set off by sleek hardware and their own special rectangular-shaped turnlocks.

With the major shift of production to China, the Italian designs mostly fell out of favor. Through the early 2000s the plant still produced some of Coach’s more unusual and expensive designs including some labor-intensive suede and leather hobo styles. The most expensive styles and exotic leather bags were produced at the Italian plant (now plant code “12” in the serial number instead of the original “E”) until around 2010. The plant has even produced the occasional all-leather key fob, although gift boxes for key fobs with Italian labels, descriptions or stamps are in almost every single instance 100 percent fake. Paper tags usually in silver or gray colors on standard Coach bags that say “Made In Italy” (or even Made In USA) are ALWAYS fake.

So tread carefully through the fakes, and keep an eye open for some of the classic Italian designs. You may find yourself turning into a fan.

 

[BeenBurned]

Daria made the Wayback machine! This post is courtesy of lacemaker3 on ebay.

Here is Part 1 of that guide from eBay USA on the Wayback Machine. It was cached 11-28-2017, and appears to be the last version because the dates match those on the UK page.
https://web.archive.org/web/20171128042450/www.ebay.com/gds/Fake-Coach-Serial-Numbers-NT-4903-and-mo...

The link to Part 2 also works, and takes you to the latest cache which was made on 5-9-2016. The dates at the bottom match the dates on Part 1.
https://web.archive.org/web/20160509145129/http://www.ebay.com:80/gds/Fake-Coach-Serial-Numbers-Part...

 

[Hyacinth]

Daria made the Wayback machine! This post is courtesy of lacemaker3 on ebay.

Here is Part 1 of that guide from eBay USA on the Wayback Machine. It was cached 11-28-2017, and appears to be the last version because the dates match those on the UK page.
https://web.archive.org/web/20171128042450/www.ebay.com/gds/Fake-Coach-Serial-Numbers-NT-4903-and-mo...

The link to Part 2 also works, and takes you to the latest cache which was made on 5-9-2016. The dates at the bottom match the dates on Part 1.
https://web.archive.org/web/20160509145129/http://www.ebay.com:80/gds/Fake-Coach-Serial-Numbers-Part...

Thanks, BB, I saw that too and just came here to post that!

That should give Daria some breathing room while she tries to break her lists into 10,000-character bites to fit the per-post limits. After just going through that myself, she has my full sympathy.


Her Bean Bag update is there too, although the links won't work
https://web.archive.org/web/2018030...-The-Coach-Bean-Bag-/10000000178539030/g.html

 

[BeenBurned]

Once something is on the Wayback, is it there in perpetuity?

 

[Hyacinth]

Once something is on the Wayback, is it there in perpetuity?

Not sure, some of the older Wayback links I saved for Coach catalog pages don't work any more but maybe that's Coach's fault,

 

[katev]

7- Coach, Italian Style - the Basic Facts - SALEAREA COACH GUIDES
Coach Italy Guide - Coach Italian Made Bags

*by "Hyacinth" for Salearea

One of the biggest surprises for many Coach "newbies" is learning how many places Coach bags and accessories have actually been made. Shoppers who remember the name from years ago are usually aware that Coach once made bags in the US but are often surprised to learn that many of the products are now made in China. And newer buyers who have only recently discovered the brand usually have no idea that they were once made right in New York City. While both ends of the buyer spectrum have their favorites, a small but growing minority is discovering one of Coach's secrets - the Made In Italy styles that are making fans of many who have been lucky enough to come across them.

Before we narrow things down, let's take a look at a bit of company history and at the countries where Coach bags have been made. The Company started in the US, of course, and began making leather accessories right in Manhattan in 1941. Purses weren't added to the lineup until 1960 but quickly became the company mainstay once women fell in love with the thick, soft cowhide used in the bags. When fashion legend Bonnie Cashin came to work for Coach in the 1960s she introduced many styles and design details still seen in today's Coaches - she left Coach in 1974 but the company kept expanding its sales until by 1987 the Manhattan factory could no longer meet the increasing demand for its handbags. Several new plants in the US starting with Miami and eventually Puerto Rico were added, and the "Made in New York City, U.S.A." stamp on the creed was changed to "Made in the United States".

Since then, Coach bags have been made in Italy, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, Hungary, Mexico, Turkey, Thailand, and most recently China, India, Vietnam, Myanmar, and the Philippines and eventually several other Asian countries. Smaller accessories like wallets have been made in even more places including France and Spain.

Once they'd decided to expand outside the US, Italy was the logical choice. Italian fashion (especially in leather goods) has always been thought of as some of the best in the world and Coach was eager to see what new ideas their Italian partners could come up with to freshen up the product line. The products of the first collaboration appeared in 1992 with the Dakota Classics and Sheridan Collections.

The Dakotas were mostly made in Italy of a unique "box grain" textured leather, thinner and stiffer than the regular cowhide and trimmed with a dark tan smooth leather trim to give them a classic Spectator look. The Dakotas were unlined and usually had a beige inside back pocket made of pigskin which carried a leather patch with the unique Dakota creed statement stamped into it but with NO serial number at all. They were immediately followed by the very similar Sheridan line, which proved hugely popular and was very similar to the Dakotas. The Sheridans were made in Costa Rica and the US as well as Italy and had a more rounded or pebbled leather grain, a taupe fabric lining, and a creed similar to the Dakotas. They were also mainly made in the 2-tone Spectator color combinations although some solid-color versions in colors like black, red and tan were also available.

Both styles were “rule-breakers” in that many Sheridan styles didn’t have serial numbers either, and although both styles used solid brass hardware they also made wide use of plastic or nylon zippers instead of the more usual brass styles. Both styles sometimes used things like zipper pulls and turnlocks that were not used on any other style of Coach bag, and are often mistakenly identified as fakes because they break several (nonexistant!) authenticity “rules”. Care should be taken when buying them though, because some Sheridan styles have been counterfeited. Serial numbers in genuine bags are sometimes poorly stamped and code digits switched, but when they have serial numbers they will be in the standard Coach format of 7 numbers in bags from 1992 and 1993, and the 7-digit letter and number combo that came into use starting in 1994.

To balance out the more casual Sheridans, Coach introduced the Madison line in 1993. The designs were dressier, the hardware sleeker including a reshaped turnlock, the leather was a lovely “caviar grain” that was extremely expensive to make and that strongly resembles the caviar leather used in some Chanel bags and accessories. Like the Sheridans, the leather was stiffer than Coach’s regular glove-tanned leather and available in an array of colors unique to the line. And like most Italian designs, the styles never look out of place or outdated, just classic.

Coach brought out the Sonoma line in 1994 and while not strictly an Italian line, like the Sheridans many Sonomas were also made in Italy as well as Costa Rica and the US. This turned out to be another winning line for Coach, because of the huge variety of sizes, shapes, and especially colors, and the availability of most styles in either smooth-grain pebbled leather or a lovely soft Nubuc leather that felt like a cross between suede and velvet. The leather used in the Sonomas was also very soft and crushable compared to the stiff but incredibly durable and water-resistant leathers of the Dakotas and Sheridans, and the line still has many devoted fans to this day. The Sonoma styles were also faked, but a good authenticator can usually spot fakes easily. One thing that should NEVER be assumed fake though is a sloppy creed patch. For some reason, genuine Sonomas had probably the sloppiest, most poorly cut and most unevenly stamped creed patches in Coach’s history - don’t ever think that because the creed patch is a mess, the bag must be fake!

Coach’s love affair with Italian production and design took a slightly different turn toward the end of the 1990s. A few assorted styles would sometimes show a Made In Italy stamp but that Italian “E” plant was now producing much dressier styles, in classic shapes and unusual leathers. The Bridle line combined simple shapes and sleek silver-color hardware with smooth calfskin trimmed with pigskin for textural contrast and came in several roomy hobo and Tote styles as well as top handles and satchels.

The Bridle line was followed by what was at the time the ultimate in Coach elegance, the Gramercy styles. The leathers were classic black or soft pastels like Wheat and Powder Blue, the bags were lined with a soft suede, the styles were classic handbag shapes like the Hermes-designed Kelly Bag made famous by Princess Grace of Monaco, and the leather was a subtle woven linen-look that hinted at Vuitton’s Epi leather. And like other top-of-the-line collections from Coach they were set off by sleek hardware and their own special rectangular-shaped turnlocks.

With the major shift of production to China, the Italian designs mostly fell out of favor. Through the early 2000s the plant still produced some of Coach’s more unusual and expensive designs including some labor-intensive suede and leather hobo styles. The most expensive styles and exotic leather bags were produced at the Italian plant (now plant code “12” in the serial number instead of the original “E”) until around 2010. The plant has even produced the occasional all-leather key fob, although gift boxes for key fobs with Italian labels, descriptions or stamps are in almost every single instance 100 percent fake. Paper tags usually in silver or gray colors on standard Coach bags that say “Made In Italy” (or even Made In USA) are ALWAYS fake.

So tread carefully through the fakes, and keep an eye open for some of the classic Italian designs. You may find yourself turning into a fan.

@Hyacinth I was just reading your excellent Italian coach guide above and I have a question. I am currently rehabbing a Gramercy Top Handle 7002 bag from 1999 (that you graciously authenticated for me) see below for one of the auction pictures.

I am trying to figure out the color name for this bag. In brighter light it appears to be a dark red or plum color, and in low light it looks dark purple or even brown.

I've searched this site, and the Wayback Machine, and other online sites and learned that this bag came in wheat, black, and powder blue, but I cannot find any references to a dark red, plum, purple color - but there are statements that say "see this collection's colors at the color corner" but I can't find the color corner or any other colors for the Gramercy bags vintage 1999 and 2000. I have seen mentions of "Garnet" Italian Coach bags but this doesn't look like Garnet to me, I think that would be a brighter, true red color.

Do you have any additional information about the colors used for the Gramercy bags, or can you suggest any other references that I should check? I was thinking of calling Coach Customer Service but I don't know if the service reps have access to vintage bag information.

I won't be the end of the world if I cannot but a name to the color, but I do like to research my vintage bags and find the factual information.

I posted this question the "ID this bag" thread some month's ago and no one could offer advice, so if I am being a pest - just tell me to "buzz off!" Thanks, Katev