Paying in Cash in Boutiques during Pandemic

[momoc]

Yeah, I see the OP said they were planning on shopping in D.C but that's not the title of this thread. There are a few other posters from other countries that have weighed in. But thanks for the Google info.

I also know it is also not illegal in UK and Canada. I’m not sure about the other countries though!

 

[the_black_tie_diyer]

I don’t disagree with you, although I try to do ApplePay / touchless whenever I can. I still think that cash tends to collect more grime, since it actually exchanges hands — most of the times when I pay with a card, it is not touched by another person. It is also easier to sanitize a card.

Many business on the U.S. have gone cashless because the cost of handling cash (collecting and depositing)is frequently higher than paying the credit card processing fee. I certainly understand where they come from. In the U.S., it can cause issues for the so-called underbanked population (people who may not be able to get a bank account), but it was becoming increasingly more common even before the pandemic.

Personally, I prefer using a card. I only ever keep cash on me for tips (e.g., at the hair salon). Every time I go to Europe / UK and visit more businesses that need cash, I find it very annoying to be dealing with coins and cash. But if you prefer using cash, go for it. I wouldn’t want to go to a jewelry store or to Hermes to get a Birkin with a pile of cash though.

Let me start by saying that you are right. Cash = cost factor. A card (in whatever way) is more convenient, and most likely cheaper than cash for all (many) involved.

But when you mention ApplePay, I just have to ask, why? Why do you need a 3rd or 4th payment processor in between you, your purchase and the merchant? The following is not personally directed at you, it's just the explanation for my way of thinking about the overall issue.

When I was a young boy, my parent's CCs were still imprinted when they used them. Back then, it was the CreditCard company that would issue your monthly statement and collect it - mostly - via direct debit. In many cases the merchant would collect the money directly from that CC-company. Your bank only knew the amount of the monthly statement.

That started to change when they went electronic. Now suddenly most merchants had a payment processor in between, to process all the different cards conveniently from one terminal.

Later the actual CC-companies (mostly) went away, and only their names were used, on cards issued to you by your bank. Now, your bank suddenly knew all of your purchases made with that CC. And the payment processor knew as well.

Nowadays, you're bringing in another additional payment processor. So, your bank/cc-issuer know what you buy, the payment processor chosen by the merchant knows what you buy, and the processor you chose to use your cards with know what you buy. And none of them do this "for free". Someone pays for this - one way or the other.

I ask: Why does Apple/Google need to have this kind of information? Why does PayPal need to have this kind of information? (I rarely use PayPal, I think the last purchase using PayPal or PayPal+ was more than a year ago ...) Why do merchants basically "tell me straight to my face": We don't trust you. If you want to be billed after delivery, another payment processor (PayPal+, Klarna, ...) has to vouch for you? I'm not giving in as long as there are different options, even if less convenient or more costly.

This might sound like I'm running around with a hat made from aluminum foil. But this stuff really moves me. I have cards, I have paid to PayPal+/Klarna, I have a card associated with ApplePay ... But I simply don't see any real need for it.

I've imported stuff, paid for with a credit card by simply giving the # over the phone or by fax, before anyone on eBay knew what international shipping was and way before customs understood how impacted they will be by international b2c or private sales one day (today). I understand that the way we do it today is more convenient. But I'm really worrying about all the information we give up to multiple companies for a single purchase. And have been, longer than some think it's woke to talk about data protection/ privacy.

(Especially, but not solely, because I'm European/German and "I" give up all this data mainly to US companies. Simply because our leaders failed to see what Amazon, eBay, PayPal, (...) would become eventually. For that matter, we haven't purchased anything at Amazon for over 3 years now.)

That's why I will continue to use cash as long as somehow possible.

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[TC1]

This isn't related to an H boutique purchase..But, say you're in a restaurant, your bill arrives. it's $220. You pull out $300 cash..and set it on the table and walk out. No one is going to come running, screaming after you that you've currently left an illegal form of payment and the police must be notified immediately
Clearly I have gone off topic. LOL apologies

 

[QuelleFromage]

If I may, I'd like to point out one thing. The idea of a card being germ free might work out if its used only via NFC/ without any physical contact. The second you swipe it, push it into a reader or hand it to someone - you never know what germs transferred from cards previously used or from the person using it. Is a card - per se - easier to keep clean/ disinfect it, absolutely.

We in Germany have insurance cards used at the doctor, the personell won't touch them. You have to push them into the reader yourself, with all the risk, catching something from previous patients via card, entirely on yourself.

I know, we all have different opinions on issues like this, they are all valid. I do not contest your reasoning behind not using cash.

Kind regards,
Oliver

The thing with cash is 1) far, far more surfaces (especially buying H lol) 2) a soft surface that holds germs (worse than many). But yes if you aren’t doing contactless, cards are a risk - never said they were not.

 

[QuelleFromage]

That’s not true. Someone (a politician I think) made a pretty popular Tweet with that point when the pandemic started and businesses were refusing cash, but was quickly disproven by multiple sources. If you Google “is it legal to refuse cash” you will find some good write ups that clear it up! And here are some notes from official government agencies

Front page | U.S. Department of the Treasury

U.S. Department of the Treasury

www.treasury.gov

Is it legal for a business in the United States to refuse cash as a form of payment?

The Federal Reserve Board of Governors in Washington DC.

www.federalreserve.gov

I have taken a very, very large business (billions) cashless. It is 1000% legal in the US at least.

Edited to add: we did offer the option to convert cash into a debit card via a machine, but this was not legally required. We did it because we did not want to lock out customers who did not have credit. Also, there are definitely legislators out there trying to undo this. But at this moment it is legal to refuse cash and we enforce it.

 

[Allthesmallthings]

I have taken a very, very large business (billions) cashless. It is 1000% legal in the US at least.

Several cities have legislation against cashless merchant environments. Going cashless means the millions that are un- or underbanked can’t participate in the economy, takes away from consumer choice and right to privacy. I understand the desire for less cash, contactless payments, etc but cashless isn’t something that will happen at scale anytime soon.

 

[Gabs007]

The thing with cash is 1) far, far more surfaces (especially buying H lol) 2) a soft surface that holds germs (worse than many). But yes if you aren’t doing contactless, cards are a risk - never said they were not.

Cards are a risk, but much easier disinfected and cleaned than cash, and personally any large exchange of money, hell no, I wouldn't ever pay cash, lugging around a massive amount of cash and if I get robbed or pocket picked it is gone up in smoke while my cards are insured? My cards might touch surfaces but I can clean them, I can't clean money that went through hundreds of hands, cash and mobile phones and ATMs are germ collectors

 

[WillstarveforLV]

It’s quite interesting to know that even different H boutiques have different forms of payment accepted!
H in Toronto (Bloor) doesn’t accept cash anymore even before pre-Covid. Only debit and credit. No phone payments either even if by credit card. It makes it really challenging for people like me who doesn’t have any H boutiques close by.

I have paid cash at H in Toronto many times pre covid .

 

[AnnaE]

We are massively off-topic here, but it seems a hot subject, so hopefully, I am not irking anyone by participating in the conversation.

Let me start by saying that you are right. Cash = cost factor. A card (in whatever way) is more convenient, and most likely cheaper than cash for all (many) involved.

But when you mention ApplePay, I just have to ask, why? Why do you need a 3rd or 4th payment processor in between you, your purchase and the merchant? The following is not personally directed at you, it's just the explanation for my way of thinking about the overall issue.

When I was a young boy, my parent's CCs were still imprinted when they used them. Back then, it was the CreditCard company that would issue your monthly statement and collect it - mostly - via direct debit. In many cases the merchant would collect the money directly from that CC-company. Your bank only knew the amount of the monthly statement.

That started to change when they went electronic. Now suddenly most merchants had a payment processor in between, to process all the different cards conveniently from one terminal.

Later the actual CC-companies (mostly) went away, and only their names were used, on cards issued to you by your bank. Now, your bank suddenly knew all of your purchases made with that CC. And the payment processor knew as well.

Nowadays, you're bringing in another additional payment processor. So, your bank/cc-issuer know what you buy, the payment processor chosen by the merchant knows what you buy, and the processor you chose to use your cards with know what you buy. And none of them do this "for free". Someone pays for this - one way or the other.

I ask: Why does Apple/Google need to have this kind of information? Why does PayPal need to have this kind of information? (I rarely use PayPal, I think the last purchase using PayPal or PayPal+ was more than a year ago ...) Why do merchants basically "tell me straight to my face": We don't trust you. If you want to be billed after delivery, another payment processor (PayPal+, Klarna, ...) has to vouch for you? I'm not giving in as long as there are different options, even if less convenient or more costly.

This might sound like I'm running around with a hat made from aluminum foil. But this stuff really moves me. I have cards, I have paid to PayPal+/Klarna, I have a card associated with ApplePay ... But I simply don't see any real need for it.

I've imported stuff, paid for with a credit card by simply giving the # over the phone or by fax, before anyone on eBay knew what international shipping was and way before customs understood how impacted they will be by international b2c or private sales one day (today). I understand that the way we do it today is more convenient. But I'm really worrying about all the information we give up to multiple companies for a single purchase. And have been, longer than some think it's woke to talk about data protection/ privacy.

(Especially, but not solely, because I'm European/German and "I" give up all this data mainly to US companies. Simply because our leaders failed to see what Amazon, eBay, PayPal, (...) would become eventually. For that matter, we haven't purchased anything at Amazon for over 3 years now.)

That's why I will continue to use cash as long as somehow possible.

Kind regards,
Oliver

My career is in the Big Data space. I am extremely aware of all the ways companies can use that type of data. At the same time, I am constantly surprised that many companies are not that great at it... take Hermes, for instance. They have not created a comprehensive customer profile. I generally use the same AmEx when buying Hermes all over the world -- but they can't keep track. Because saying 'oh I bought a wallet in Frankfurt a couple years ago' and figuring out what color it was by googling is just plain annoying.

I will say that from the data perspective, an individual Joe Schmoe is not interesting at all. No one is checking out your individual profile details. The data is generally only valuable when it is in bulk.

I use ApplePay because my AmEx's contactless functionality stopped working, and I have been too lazy to get a new one.

Several cities have legislation against cashless merchant environments. Going cashless means the millions that are un- or underbanked can’t participate in the economy, takes away from consumer choice and right to privacy. I understand the desire for less cash, contactless payments, etc but cashless isn’t something that will happen at scale anytime soon.

Yep, agreed. There are technically ways to do this (if you want to go to SweetGreen, which has gone cashless a long time ago, you can go buy a Visa gift card with your cash first), but it's exactly practical for many people.

Cards are a risk, but much easier disinfected and cleaned than cash, and personally any large exchange of money, hell no, I wouldn't ever pay cash, lugging around a massive amount of cash and if I get robbed or pocket picked it is gone up in smoke while my cards are insured? My cards might touch surfaces but I can clean them, I can't clean money that went through hundreds of hands, cash and mobile phones and ATMs are germ collectors

I agree with that -- I can't imagine walking into Hermes with a wad of cash and paying for a Birkin. Although I have seen tourists paying for an exotic one with cash...

I am in general very attached to my AmEx, because it has amazing customer protection. When I lost an Hermes silk shawl a couple days after buying it, they paid for a new one. They are great for dealing with stubborn merchants, etc. Extended warranty is amazing, too.

 

[the_black_tie_diyer]

We are massively off-topic here, but it seems a hot subject, so hopefully, I am not irking anyone by participating in the conversation.



My career is in the Big Data space. I am extremely aware of all the ways companies can use that type of data. At the same time, I am constantly surprised that many companies are not that great at it... take Hermes, for instance. They have not created a comprehensive customer profile. I generally use the same AmEx when buying Hermes all over the world -- but they can't keep track. Because saying 'oh I bought a wallet in Frankfurt a couple years ago' and figuring out what color it was by googling is just plain annoying.

I will say that from the data perspective, an individual Joe Schmoe is not interesting at all. No one is checking out your individual profile details. The data is generally only valuable when it is in bulk.

I use ApplePay because my AmEx's contactless functionality stopped working, and I have been too lazy to get a new one.

(...)

Well I will apologize fro brining up this topic, but I think it's an incredibly interesting - and important one.

I can't say that I'm/ or we are missing a comprehensive customer profile with Hermès or any of the other brands for that matter. We don't even bother to give a name/e-mail/phone when at another location than our home boutique(s). I/we simply don't care for it one bit. But sure, I can see the benefit if such a profile was accessible to the customer - even if it was just to keep track of their personal Hermès inventory or print a receipt that got lost/ is needed right away.

When I'm looking at the risks, I'm looking beyond any company that sells "data" to another in "bulk" or bases predictions on the "data" they have.

For years we've been joking about "CIA"/"DHS" reading emails and the massive amount of data this must accumulate over time. Going with exactly the same sentiment, "we" are not persons of interest by any means. Now we know that they did (and do) have the capabilities to screen incredible amounts of e-mails, grabbing them right at the bottle neck, even with help of local agencies.

We know, Amazon (Namely Bezos and his higher ups, back when it was "just" a book store) have picked a "Joe Schmoes" in the past, over pizza and beer, trying to learn everything about them. And today, they follow every click you make, the way you move your cursor, how many times you re-load content while scrolling on a product page, what you click on, how long you stay, what website you came from, which website you leave to.

Personally, I'm deeply concerned and I think it's wrong.

But it doesn't stop there. I guess you have heard about "Better than cash alliance"? ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Than_Cash_Alliance )

Building a Gateway to Digital Payments in Afghanistan: The World Food Programme’s E-Voucher Initiative

In Afghanistan, the World Food Programme (WFP) turned to digital payments to deliver food aid and has experienced many benefits by transitioning to e-vouchers and mobile money.

www.betterthancash.org

They are also the driving factor behind this: https://www.devex.com/news/biometrics-disagreement-leads-to-food-aid-suspension-in-yemen-95164


To me, this is not about "un- or underbanked people", giving them access to regular bank accounts would be not problem. Even Germany passed a law that anybody has a right to bank account and waived the mandatory address, even homeless can get one, and give the address - to receive mail - of "a friend". But this (better than cash/ going cashless) is about control. I think cash is worth fighting for, and I think it's important to let merchants know, that one won't be forced into going "digital" creating more "data". It can be misused, it can be stolen, it can be used against me. So why should I help to create a pool of it?

But yeah they make it hard, "killing" the 500,- Euro bill over here, because it's alleged use in money laundry. Laughable, they have been laundering billions "digitally" via identical stock purchases through different branches in different currencies and kicking them back to the original purchaser. But sure, a couple of 500,- Euro bills is the enemy and someone paying for a Birkin with merely 20 of them is a money laundering criminal.


And this goes further. Again, I'm sure you have heard of clearview.ai ?

The rise of police requesting mobility/location data from google?



I don't believe that any of this data which is collected is used for any good. And in the past, I was guilty of making it far to easy for them to collect it as well, and I'm incredibly angry with myself for that.

In the end, I think it's far too late to do anything about it, as too much has been given way already. But I know what advice I would give my younger self.

Now, to me, it's all about raising awareness. Everything else is everyone's personal decision based on their believes.

As I'm writing this, by the way, Safari tells me it has blocked 22 trackers from creating a profile - on this site. Just for fun - no ill will here. But I added a screen shot.



Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[QuelleFromage]

Ok, a lot of us work in tech, but this is way way OT from Hermès and cash.
I will say that most direct to consumer companies ARE interested in individual customer profiles. That’s how marketing is tailored to you. H doesn’t appear to be sophisticated in this way but you never know and again, we were talking about boutiques taking cash

 

[Gabs007]

Maybe we should move the discussion somewhere else before we go totally OT, but it is quite interesting... I recall years ago straight out of uni, I worked for the pharmaceutical industry, since I am not a spring chicken anymore, that was way before everybody had internet and internet banking, they were already trying to have the "transparent customer" to target sales better. I can't say I like it, but it is unstoppable, worrying how a company can track you with payments is actually a bit of mote point, when we all carry mobiles, with the data your mobile sends you, they can track you and identify you, and if they would use that data and harvest it, they would know more about you than through how you spend your cash.

For luxury shopping I use one card, the one that links to my private "slush" account, the email address the bank has for the account and CC - never had an issue. Now oddly enough, I have 3 email addresses attached to PP, now the one I use specifically for cheaper goods, usually from abroad (replacement parts for household items, they mainly come from China), I get spam on them on a regular basis, hacking attempts, blackmail attempts (pay me bitcoins or I release a video I secretly recorded of you watching porn... blah blah), I conclude those mails are somewhere in a data base....

I also block tracking attempts, have an ad blocker... It makes sense

 

[papertiger]

Can we get back to HERMES now please, TY

 

[lcd_purse_girl]

In 2020, everything is different. It is best to call the boutique, regardless of where you live, and ask if the boutique takes cash.

 

[Jktgal]

To save in cash you must be receiving money in cash as well. Interesting.

In terms of data being used by financial companies and advertisers - your data is used anonymously. To show trends. Like how water companies and traffic managers use your water flows and travel data. Yes there is advertisement linked to Paypal etc, but only if you participate in the social media etc that use this advert. If you dont have insta, twitter, email on free platforms, TPF etc then likely you will never see adverts and they wont profit off of you.

Research on public policy have benefitted greatly from these "big data" (not to say that public policy have benefitted as politicians don't really listen to researchers). Unfortunately they rarely make it to mainstream media.

I do not live in USA but luxury goods incl Hermes can be purchased in cash here. They are often linked to money laundering schemes and bribes. I could not find articles in English but I am sure you will find some if you google Hermes bribe money launder etc.