Coach's Three Tiered Structure

[momtok]

It's weird though, a few months ago I was obsessed with my swaggers. But now, seeing all of these 1941 reveals the swagger doesn't feel as special to me. .

D'oh, I forgot the swagger in my little list above. Went back, saw Harley's post, and remembered.

This should have been in my list:

Swagger, not valid on PCE, wouldn't go to outlet, then PCEs started working, and not only at outlets and on online outlet, but the outlets even came out with their own verison. (The Blake?) They made a couple small tweeks, but otherwise it was blindingly easy to anyone, to see what it was supposed to be. And that was only ...what? ... a few months ago? That was *very* recent. Certainly not awash in policy change. At least not "real" change.

 

[HesitantShopper]

Just a few thoughts, and a trip down memory lane:

1) Customers wishing the outlets away isn't going to do it. Said wish has been made by many people, many times, over the years I've been here. A look at the data, however, shows more outlets have opened over that time, than disappeared. Indeed, it's been boutiques that have been more likely to close, (at least based on that list of store closings somewhere in this subforum).

2) Many people, many times over the years, have wished that the MFF would disappear. (Note, I personally have many MFF bags that I love dearly, so I'm certainly not going to dismiss MFF.) Not only has it not happened, but the number of MFF imitations of boutique bags have actually increased. We also have some of the same leathers and *colors* in MFF, as we do in boutiques right now. (Just one example, seaglass, and the same pebbled and crossgrain seaglass in particular.) Some lines have even moved from boutique to MFF (Madison Kelsey, Phoebe, etc.).

3) Coach has "claimed", whether through news articles, or quotes from executives, or even just quotes from Sales Associates, that things would "be a certain way", or "change a certain way", and I can barely think of one case where the statements actually panned out.

Phoebe's ... not valid on PCE ... then they were valid ... since then SAS and outlets ... now they actually *are* a MFF bag. (I literally out loud when I type that.)

Legacy from five years ago ... some were not valid on PCE ... then were valid on PCE ... then "they'll never go to outlet" ... then they did ... then MFF came up with some very similar versions.

Boroughs ... not valid on PCE ... then they were valid ... then on SAS and outlets (and I got a few through both routes and love them dearly) ... then MFF actually made their *own* Boroughs.

PCEs were supposed to go away. Well they did, for a couple months, until they came back. Supposedly there's another one coming in a week or two, for which I already have a small purchase planned. Indeed, the last PCE even went public after a few days -- broadening PCE even while the execs were claiming PCE was goinga way. Similarly, the semi-annual sale was supposed to be brief, and only twice a year. Well it was, for the first three. This last autumn/winter though .... we went from a PCE, to the PCE opening, then it morphed within a week or two into a "Winter sale", when *then* morphed after a couple weeks into the actual SAS, which then went on for its own series of changes. ..... What was long claimed to be "No PCE's and only brief SAS's twice a week, morphed into what must have been three months worth of "sales". No lie.

Oh, and I almost forgot .... for a while the execs were saying that the department stores would no longer be able to reduce the prices on their Coach offerings. Coupons would no longer work. Departments could not put them on clearance. That *was* the claim. Well that apparently never worked out, because Coach is still going on clearance, the coupons still work on clearance, and they still do occasional coupons that work on department store full prices.

I realize that the obvious counter to all of this is, "But things are different *now* ... things will be different *now*." But my point is simply this --- Coach has been saying things for years, that almost never come to pass. For years, we've heard, "Things will change *now*." ...... Really? Well why "now now", as opposed to "last year's now". Or "the year before's now". .... See that boy over there, talking about a wolf?

If I look back over the last ... what ... six years? ... the only real change I've seen is that a lot of items no longer go to outlets, but go to the *online* outlet instead. If you have an account in the online outlet sale, the variety of boutique deletes available to you, at outlet prices, has actually *increased*.

In other words, except for more deletes going to the online sale, than used to go to brick-and-morter outlets, I'd say this below pretty much sums it up ...

You laid it all out so well. And your Now definitions were hilarious!

 

[AstridRhapsody]

Why do you view Rogue as high caliber than Swagger...???
I own 4 Swaggers and the quality is very high....Rogue is a very nice bag and I will get the larger size...but I don't think it is high caliber..


so the Swaggers that you have purchased, you have never used them?

I've used my burgundy colorblock one quite a bit, that one I might sell. It's my 2nd one though, the first one had loose stitching all down the front left side and had to be exchanged. I had the black matte and gave it to my sister when I ordered the black rivets. I saw hers last week and it's not looking too pretty lol. I had horrible luck with the rivets swagger and bought and returned it 3 times due to scratched up and loose rivets. I also had a few ladies here message me saying they had similar problems with the plastic coating on the rivets and got refunded. I bought the black matte again because I missed it after giving it away. I had to look through a few in store because there was messed up stitching on the bottom side panels. Hard to explain but there were stitches not in a straight line that was tearing the leather at stress points. 2 were so bad that my SA damaged them out. I haven't cut the tags yet on black matte because I bought a black grommet borough around the same time.

I think maybe I've just been really unlucky lol. My favorite SA called me saying she thinks the rogue is higher quality than the swagger and thinks I will like it more. She ordered one for herself in oxblood and will have it tomorrow for me to check out. Her coworker already has it in mineral and she said its amazing. I don't think she's just trying to get me too buy higher priced bags either because she's never pushy. Last time we discussed the mini rhyder 33 she told me to wait because they would be hitting the outlet soon so I could save some $.

 

[crissy11]

Truth - every last word of it. You and I have been around for about the same amount of time and I've also seen every single thing you posted. That's why I say I'd love to see the 1941 line be a truly exclusive, non-discounted line but based on everything you said below, it's unlikely.

I'm tired of trying to explain it to overly enthusiastic new Coach SAs who weren't around for all the things you mentioned. I just inwardly roll my eyes and walk away.

Good points you made here!

Just a few thoughts, and a trip down memory lane:

1) Customers wishing the outlets away isn't going to do it. Said wish has been made by many people, many times, over the years I've been here. A look at the data, however, shows more outlets have opened over that time, than disappeared. Indeed, it's been boutiques that have been more likely to close, (at least based on that list of store closings somewhere in this subforum).

2) Many people, many times over the years, have wished that the MFF would disappear. (Note, I personally have many MFF bags that I love dearly, so I'm certainly not going to dismiss MFF.) Not only has it not happened, but the number of MFF imitations of boutique bags have actually increased. We also have some of the same leathers and *colors* in MFF, as we do in boutiques right now. (Just one example, seaglass, and the same pebbled and crossgrain seaglass in particular.) Some lines have even moved from boutique to MFF (Madison Kelsey, Phoebe, etc.).

3) Coach has "claimed", whether through news articles, or quotes from executives, or even just quotes from Sales Associates, that things would "be a certain way", or "change a certain way", and I can barely think of one case where the statements actually panned out.

Phoebe's ... not valid on PCE ... then they were valid ... since then SAS and outlets ... now they actually *are* a MFF bag. (I literally out loud when I type that.)

Legacy from five years ago ... some were not valid on PCE ... then were valid on PCE ... then "they'll never go to outlet" ... then they did ... then MFF came up with some very similar versions.

Boroughs ... not valid on PCE ... then they were valid ... then on SAS and outlets (and I got a few through both routes and love them dearly) ... then MFF actually made their *own* Boroughs.

PCEs were supposed to go away. Well they did, for a couple months, until they came back. Supposedly there's another one coming in a week or two, for which I already have a small purchase planned. Indeed, the last PCE even went public after a few days -- broadening PCE even while the execs were claiming PCE was goinga way. Similarly, the semi-annual sale was supposed to be brief, and only twice a year. Well it was, for the first three. This last autumn/winter though .... we went from a PCE, to the PCE opening, then it morphed within a week or two into a "Winter sale", when *then* morphed after a couple weeks into the actual SAS, which then went on for its own series of changes. ..... What was long claimed to be "No PCE's and only brief SAS's twice a week, morphed into what must have been three months worth of "sales". No lie.

Oh, and I almost forgot .... for a while the execs were saying that the department stores would no longer be able to reduce the prices on their Coach offerings. Coupons would no longer work. Departments could not put them on clearance. That *was* the claim. Well that apparently never worked out, because Coach is still going on clearance, the coupons still work on clearance, and they still do occasional coupons that work on department store full prices.

I realize that the obvious counter to all of this is, "But things are different *now* ... things will be different *now*." But my point is simply this --- Coach has been saying things for years, that almost never come to pass. For years, we've heard, "Things will change *now*." ...... Really? Well why "now now", as opposed to "last year's now". Or "the year before's now". .... See that boy over there, talking about a wolf?

If I look back over the last ... what ... six years? ... the only real change I've seen is that a lot of items no longer go to outlets, but go to the *online* outlet instead. If you have an account in the online outlet sale, the variety of boutique deletes available to you, at outlet prices, has actually *increased*.

In other words, except for more deletes going to the online sale, than used to go to brick-and-morter outlets, I'd say this below pretty much sums it up ...

 

[crazyforcoach09]

I've used my burgundy colorblock one quite a bit, that one I might sell. It's my 2nd one though, the first one had loose stitching all down the front left side and had to be exchanged. I had the black matte and gave it to my sister when I ordered the black rivets. I saw hers last week and it's not looking too pretty lol. I had horrible luck with the rivets swagger and bought and returned it 3 times due to scratched up and loose rivets. I also had a few ladies here message me saying they had similar problems with the plastic coating on the rivets and got refunded. I bought the black matte again because I missed it after giving it away. I had to look through a few in store because there was messed up stitching on the bottom side panels. Hard to explain but there were stitches not in a straight line that was tearing the leather at stress points. 2 were so bad that my SA damaged them out. I haven't cut the tags yet on black matte because I bought a black grommet borough around the same time.

I think maybe I've just been really unlucky lol. My favorite SA called me saying she thinks the rogue is higher quality than the swagger and thinks I will like it more. She ordered one for herself in oxblood and will have it tomorrow for me to check out. Her coworker already has it in mineral and she said its amazing. I don't think she's just trying to get me too buy higher priced bags either because she's never pushy. Last time we discussed the mini rhyder 33 she told me to wait because they would be hitting the outlet soon so I could save some $.

Your SA wants you to purchase the rogue. That is why she made the comment. SwAggers are top notch in quality. The rogue is great. I love everthing abt it expect the size.

 

[AstridRhapsody]

Your SA wants you to purchase the rogue. That is why she made the comment. SwAggers are top notch in quality. The rogue is great. I love everthing abt it expect the size.

Well I had originally texted her asking about the python saddle bag (I have a milestone birthday coming up and want something special and different ). She recommended against it because she thinks the python won't hold up well on a flap that opens and closes often and will get creases. She knows I love compartment bags like the boroughs and started going on about the rogue and how she thinks it's better made then the swagger. Who knows though, maybe higher ups want them pushing the rogue over everything else?

 

[Alexa5]

I agree that I find it questionable that a SA would make comments about the Rogue being "better" than the Swagger as a reason to buy it, as I am sure not too far back when Swagger was the new "it" bag, that was the one that was being recommended (at least to other customers if not yourself).

I think the Swagger and Rogue are just different, and can't really be compared. They just aren't the same bag. The Swagger's leather is different, how the bag is structured and made is just not the same. The Rogue is a beautiful bag, but should be liked on its own accord...not because it is supposedly better than Swagger.

My personal thoughts are if I had trouble with a certain bag not being the best quality, etc, it is best to just give up, and not to keep trying for a new one. Some bags aren't meant to be....

 

[crazyforcoach09]

I agree that I find it questionable that a SA would make comments about the Rogue being "better" than the Swagger as a reason to buy it, as I am sure not too far back when Swagger was the new "it" bag, that was the one that was being recommended (at least to other customers if not yourself).

I think the Swagger and Rogue are just different, and can't really be compared. They just aren't the same bag. The Swagger's leather is different, how the bag is structured and made is just not the same. The Rogue is a beautiful bag, but should be liked on its own accord...not because it is supposedly better than Swagger.

My personal thoughts are if I had trouble with a certain bag not being the best quality, etc, it is best to just give up, and not to keep trying for a new one. Some bags aren't meant to be....

So good

 

[Hobbsy]

The Swagger and Rogue are both very nice bags, imo. There are aspects of the Rogue that are part of the bag that are nicer than the Swagger, lined in suede, the hardware, the thicker leather....etc.

 

[CoachMaven]

I'll believe it when I see it, that the 1941 won't be at the outlets. Unless they have some sort of forecasting to know just how many bags to order from manufacturing, they will have overstock in some of them.

I also bet there will be MFF versions of the saddle bag and the Rogue, just like they have variations of Swagger and MFF Boroughs and Phoebes.

If I am wrong, which I hope I am, I will be happy to see them elevate the brand, but Coach was never LV or Chanel to me. They are an American leathergoods brand with good quality items at more reasonable costs. To chase after the luxury lines, when more people seem to be going away from spending their disposable income on accessories, seems odd to me. I just read an article on how Millenials are less likely to buy luxury brands of handbags and wallets, and spend more money on makeup and designer athletic apparel.

 

[eleanors36]

So good

Yes!

I'll believe it when I see it, that the 1941 won't be at the outlets. Unless they have some sort of forecasting to know just how many bags to order from manufacturing, they will have overstock in some of them.

I also bet there will be MFF versions of the saddle bag and the Rogue, just like they have variations of Swagger and MFF Boroughs and Phoebes.

If I am wrong, which I hope I am, I will be happy to see them elevate the brand, but Coach was never LV or Chanel to me. They are an American leathergoods brand with good quality items at more reasonable costs. To chase after the luxury lines, when more people seem to be going away from spending their disposable income on accessories, seems odd to me. I just read an article on how Millenials are less likely to buy luxury brands of handbags and wallets, and spend more money on makeup and designer athletic apparel.

Very true! I read a similar article.

 

[MiaBorsa]

Just a few thoughts, and a trip down memory lane:

1) Customers wishing the outlets away isn't going to do it. Said wish has been made by many people, many times, over the years I've been here. A look at the data, however, shows more outlets have opened over that time, than disappeared. Indeed, it's been boutiques that have been more likely to close, (at least based on that list of store closings somewhere in this subforum).

2) Many people, many times over the years, have wished that the MFF would disappear. (Note, I personally have many MFF bags that I love dearly, so I'm certainly not going to dismiss MFF.) Not only has it not happened, but the number of MFF imitations of boutique bags have actually increased. We also have some of the same leathers and *colors* in MFF, as we do in boutiques right now. (Just one example, they have the same color seaglass, and the same pebbled and crossgrain seaglass leathers in particular, in both boutiques and MFF literally right now.) Some lines have even moved from boutique to MFF (Madison Kelsey, Phoebe, etc.).

3) Coach has "claimed", whether through news articles, or quotes from executives, or even just quotes from Sales Associates, that things would "be a certain way", or "change a certain way", and I can barely think of one case where the statements actually panned out.

Phoebe's ... not valid on PCE ... then they were valid ... since then SAS and outlets ... now they actually *are* a MFF bag. (I literally out loud when I type that.)

Legacy from five years ago ... some were not valid on PCE ... then were valid on PCE ... then "they'll never go to outlet" ... then they did ... then MFF came up with some very similar versions.

Boroughs ... not valid on PCE ... then they were valid ... then on SAS and outlets (and I got a few through both routes and love them dearly) ... then MFF actually made their *own* Boroughs.

PCEs were supposed to go away. Well they did, for a couple months, until they came back. Supposedly there's another one coming in a week or two, for which I already have a small purchase planned. Indeed, the last PCE even went public after a few days -- broadening PCE even while the execs were claiming PCE was going away (ie. literally opposite from what the execs had been claiming). Similarly, the semi-annual sale was supposed to be brief, and only twice a year. Well it was, for the first three. This last autumn/winter though .... we went from a PCE, to the PCE opening, then it morphed within a week or two into a "Winter sale", which *then* morphed after a couple weeks into the actual SAS, which then went on for its own series of changes. ..... What was long claimed to be "No PCE's and only brief SAS's twice a year," morphed into what must have been three months worth of "sales". No lie.

Oh, and I almost forgot .... for a while the execs were saying that the department stores would no longer be able to reduce the prices on their Coach offerings. Coupons would no longer work. Department stores could not put them on clearance. That *was* the claim. Well that apparently never worked out, because Coach is still going on clearance, the coupons still work on clearance, and they still do occasional coupons that work on department store full prices.

I realize that the obvious counter to all of this is, "But things are different *now* ... things will be different *now*." But my point is simply this --- Coach has been saying things for years, that almost never come to pass. For years, we've heard, "Things will change *now*." ...... Really? Well why "now now", as opposed to "last year's now". Or "the year before's now". .... See that boy over there, talking about a wolf?

If I look back over the last ... what ... six years? ... the only real change I've seen is that a lot of items no longer go to outlets, but go to the *online* outlet instead. If you have an account in the online outlet sale, the variety of boutique deletes available to you, at outlet prices, has actually *increased*.

In other words, except for more deletes going to the online sale, than used to go to brick-and-morter outlets, I'd say this below pretty much sums it up ...

:golfclap: Very well done.

 

[GA Peach]

I agree that at some point the 1941 bags will hit the outlets, on-line and/or brick-and-mortar. When I walked into my FP store in Atlanta and saw Saddle bags EVERYWHERE I thought, "Well, let me just wait for a while".......and which Coach Marketing Genius thought it was a good idea to make the Saddle bags available for a week THEN take them away right before the holidays!!!! Stupid move. My birthday is in November and by the time I decided to get a Saddle bag they were gone. Now I'm not as interested and will wait.

 

[pinkngreenpurse]

I'll believe it when I see it, that the 1941 won't be at the outlets. Unless they have some sort of forecasting to know just how many bags to order from manufacturing, they will have overstock in some of them.

I also bet there will be MFF versions of the saddle bag and the Rogue, just like they have variations of Swagger and MFF Boroughs and Phoebes.

If I am wrong, which I hope I am, I will be happy to see them elevate the brand, but Coach was never LV or Chanel to me. They are an American leathergoods brand with good quality items at more reasonable costs. To chase after the luxury lines, when more people seem to be going away from spending their disposable income on accessories, seems odd to me. I just read an article on how Millenials are less likely to buy luxury brands of handbags and wallets, and spend more money on makeup and designer athletic apparel.

I don't understand why they can't discount them if they have overstock in the actual boutiques? There is no need to send them to the outlet as people would buy them on sale in the boutique stores......

 

[MiaBorsa]

I honestly don't know. What do Louis Vuitton and Chanel do - they never discount bags? I'd like to see Coach do the same thing for the 1941 bags that LV and Chanel do, follow that business plan.

I don't know about Chanel, but LV destroys unsold merchandise. Never marked down.