Sotheby's Auction Help (Time Sensitive) Please :)

[peonies13]

I'm considering purchasing a bag from Sotheby's online (the auction is out of the Paris branch, closing tomorrow) and have never done any buying with Sotheby's before... has anyone purchased and can help me figure out what the total cost will be?

I'm reading their T&C in detail and it seems that on top of the "hammer price", I have to pay a 1% "overhead fee" plus a whopping 26% "buyer's premium", plus VAT. So the bag I'm looking at is €7k... let's pretend that's the winning bid... so if I'm doing this correctly, I'm looking at 7000 * 1.01 (1% overhead) * 1.26 (26% buyers premium) and that comes to €8908 without VAT. I have no experience with VAT and my googling isn't giving me a clear answer (neither are Sotheby's help pages, plus have read a lot on these forums too but I remain confused) so from what I read, it's somewhere in the 20% range or even more? So pretending it's 20% VAT, then I again multiply by 1.2 and I'm coming out to €10,689... basically over a 1.5x upcharge on the price. Is this right?

Please let me me know if I'm doing this right/wrong because I'm wanting to make sure I don't get myself into a financial pickle! Here I was thinking "ooh, €7k would be a good price" but I'm glad I'm researching in advance, I think it might be out of my budget!

 

[880]

I believe @QuelleFromage is familiar with these issues so perhaps she will see the tag
she did write a post about auctions here https://forum.purseblog.com/threads/selling-hermes-auction-house-vs-resellers.1053679/ In that thread, I believe @_gelato_ or another member commented on estimates vis-a-vis actual prices, which might also be of interest to you. There is also this thread, where @needmoneyforbirkins bought a limited edition bag at auction abroad https://forum.purseblog.com/threads...ermes-handbag-licensed-shipper.1053669/page-2
Several other TPFers bought bags at this particular auction.

There should be a section on the auction site called payment, buyers premium, taxes and fees, or something like that. if I recall correctly there is also a general warning that foreign buyer is also subject to customs, duty, and applicable tax when the item is brought home. It was always my understanding that if you are based in the EU, you have to pay VAT. If you based elsewhere, like the US, you may get a portion of VAT back, but you may be subject to 10% customs as well as applicable state sales tax. I just thought I should mention it. Good luck!

 

[peonies13]

I believe @QuelleFromage is familiar with these issues so perhaps she will see the tag
she did write a post about auctions here https://forum.purseblog.com/threads/selling-hermes-auction-house-vs-resellers.1053679/ In that thread, I believe @_gelato_ or another member commented on estimates vis-a-vis actual prices, which might also be of interest to you. There is also this thread, where @needmoneyforbirkins bought a limited edition bag at auction abroad https://forum.purseblog.com/threads...ermes-handbag-licensed-shipper.1053669/page-2
Several other TPFers bought bags at this particular auction.

There should be a section on the auction site called payment, buyers premium, taxes and fees, or something like that. if I recall correctly there is also a general warning that foreign buyer is also subject to customs, duty, and applicable tax when the item is brought home. It was always my understanding that if you are based in the EU, you have to pay VAT. If you based elsewhere, like the US, you may get a portion of VAT back, but you may be subject to 10% customs as well as applicable state sales tax. I just thought I should mention it. Good luck!

Thank you so much for posting this! I read the whole thread and it’s handy to reference.

I wasn’t aware that you could receive part of the VAT back - I thought that was only for store-fresh purchases for in person travelers at the airport returning home. So that’s good news, but perhaps moot if I have to pay customs import (I’m in USA) which I hadn’t considered!

Do you know if the VAT refund is automatic or would I have to do a bunch of paperwork for that?

Also, if anyone has a recent experience of what the VAT cost is, I would really love to be able to estimate that as well as import duties assuming Paris to USA.

 

[Lol22177]

I'm considering purchasing a bag from Sotheby's online (the auction is out of the Paris branch, closing tomorrow) and have never done any buying with Sotheby's before... has anyone purchased and can help me figure out what the total cost will be?

I'm reading their T&C in detail and it seems that on top of the "hammer price", I have to pay a 1% "overhead fee" plus a whopping 26% "buyer's premium", plus VAT. So the bag I'm looking at is €7k... let's pretend that's the winning bid... so if I'm doing this correctly, I'm looking at 7000 * 1.01 (1% overhead) * 1.26 (26% buyers premium) and that comes to €8908 without VAT. I have no experience with VAT and my googling isn't giving me a clear answer (neither are Sotheby's help pages, plus have read a lot on these forums too but I remain confused) so from what I read, it's somewhere in the 20% range or even more? So pretending it's 20% VAT, then I again multiply by 1.2 and I'm coming out to €10,689... basically over a 1.5x upcharge on the price. Is this right?

Please let me me know if I'm doing this right/wrong because I'm wanting to make sure I don't get myself into a financial pickle! Here I was thinking "ooh, €7k would be a good price" but I'm glad I'm researching in advance, I think it might be out of my budget!

Hi - haven’t shopped Hermes at Sotheby’s but buy art frequently. There is no VAT if you are not located outside the EU. Also the VAT is only 20 percent of the buyers premium- which will be refunded to you if you show the item is exported ~90 days (I think) after the sale. If Sothebys does the shipping for you they will not invoice you for VAT.

Make sure to get a condition report!

 

[peonies13]

Hi - haven’t shopped Hermes at Sotheby’s but buy art frequently. There is no VAT if you are not located outside the EU. Also the VAT is only 20 percent of the buyers premium- which will be refunded to you if you show the item is exported ~90 days (I think) after the sale. If Sothebys does the shipping for you they will not invoice you for VAT.

Make sure to get a condition report!

Thank you!! So you’re saying if I have Sotheby’s handle shipping to me in USA they just won’t charge VAT at all?

I have the ability to see the condition report as a logged in user, but it’s only a few sentences… is the report you’re referring to something beyond just the little bit listed in that section of the lot listing?

 

[maxroxxherhandbags]

Thank you!! So you’re saying if I have Sotheby’s handle shipping to me in USA they just won’t charge VAT at all?

I have the ability to see the condition report as a logged in user, but it’s only a few sentences… is the report you’re referring to something beyond just the little bit listed in that section of the lot listing?

If you click on condition report a PDF should download with more details about condition..or you can usually email the specialist for the auction (often via a link on the listing) asking for further details.
One thing I'll add..with the online auctions the 'estimates' often go way higher so don't get lulled into thinking you will get it at the lower end of estimate if no previous bids are shown.
Like on Ebay people often start bidding furiously in the last few minutes before close.
This happened to me relatively recently with a bag I'd been watching since the listings became public.
On the day of the auction my DH was going to bid for me (as I wasn't able to sit on a computer and do so from work) about 10 minutes from the end the price climbed and climbed and climbed and went WAAAAAAAAY over the lowest estimate (I was prepared to go around 1.5k over but it went for more than 10k over that estimate).

 

[QuelleFromage]

Sorry I was off time zone. Thanks for the tag @880

I buy both art and Hermès extensively at Paris auction houses. I live between Paris and the US. Sometimes I ship, usually I pick up in Paris. Maybe I can help.

If it's this auction, there is both a buyer's guide and a terms of sale . Buyer's premium is 26% (this is standard); overhead is 1% (many auction houses just wrap this into buyer's premium). So just view it as 27% premium.

Realized price will be hammer (whatever the auction closes at) plus 27%.

French VAT is charged on the BUYER PREMIUM, not on the hammer price. It is indeed 20%.

I don't know where you are based @peonies13 , so can't give you any solid VAT answers, but if it's outside the EU/Schengen* you should not be charged VAT. For the US, they will normally invoice without VAT if the auction house does the shipping.

ETA: Always check your specific lot for any exclusions. For instance, a lot may have shipping restrictions, or some of the consumers' rights rules may not apply. Read the whole description.

Now a word to the wise (and please no one flame me for this), here are the hidden costs (I can only speak for US here):

Sothebys will charge a fair amount for shipping. Could easily be a few hundred euro.

Unlike fine art, leather items are absolutely subject to duties when shipped to the US.

You should also be aware of use tax in your state. California is particularly a pain here. (This btw does apply to art but certainly applies to bags.) Many states don't have use tax.

Finally I would never, ever ship an exotic from France to the US. Too complicated. I'd rather fly over, get it, have a croissant, and carry it back. But, YMMV.



Hope that is of some help

*Schengen and the UK can get complex and I don't know enough to get into it, although I do import UK to France a lot.

 

[Love Of My Life]

Thank you!! So you’re saying if I have Sotheby’s handle shipping to me in USA they just won’t charge VAT at all?

I have the ability to see the condition report as a logged in user, but it’s only a few sentences… is the report you’re referring to something beyond just the little bit listed in that section of the lot listing?

I remember reading from a poster purchasing an auction item from Christie's (Hermes bag) & she commented that
the shipping was much more than she anticipated. It is on the forum here I'm just not able to spot it for you
The details of the condition can also be vague from these auction houses if you don't have an opportunity
to see the bag or speak to a representative who can give more info..
Unless this is a bag that you must have the additional costs may lead you to look elsewhere, JMO

 

[peonies13]

If you click on condition report a PDF should download with more details about condition..or you can usually email the specialist for the auction (often via a link on the listing) asking for further details.
One thing I'll add..with the online auctions the 'estimates' often go way higher so don't get lulled into thinking you will get it at the lower end of estimate if no previous bids are shown.
Like on Ebay people often start bidding furiously in the last few minutes before close.
This happened to me relatively recently with a bag I'd been watching since the listings became public.
On the day of the auction my DH was going to bid for me (as I wasn't able to sit on a computer and do so from work) about 10 minutes from the end the price climbed and climbed and climbed and went WAAAAAAAAY over the lowest estimate (I was prepared to go around 1.5k over but it went for more than 10k over that estimate).

Wow, thank you @maxroxxherhandbags - this is really good info. I was expecting the auction to get bid up furiously at the very end but it didnt' end up happening. It wasn't a bad price, but I had questions about the item that I never got answered so I ended up not biding since the price was too high for me to take the gamble.

Sorry I was off time zone. Thanks for the tag @880

I buy both art and Hermès extensively at Paris auction houses. I live between Paris and the US. Sometimes I ship, usually I pick up in Paris. Maybe I can help.

If it's this auction, there is both a buyer's guide and a terms of sale . Buyer's premium is 26% (this is standard); overhead is 1% (many auction houses just wrap this into buyer's premium). So just view it as 27% premium.

Realized price will be hammer (whatever the auction closes at) plus 27%.

French VAT is charged on the BUYER PREMIUM, not on the hammer price. It is indeed 20%.

I don't know where you are based @peonies13 , so can't give you any solid VAT answers, but if it's outside the EU/Schengen* you should not be charged VAT. For the US, they will normally invoice without VAT if the auction house does the shipping.

ETA: Always check your specific lot for any exclusions. For instance, a lot may have shipping restrictions, or some of the consumers' rights rules may not apply. Read the whole description.

Now a word to the wise (and please no one flame me for this), here are the hidden costs (I can only speak for US here):

Sothebys will charge a fair amount for shipping. Could easily be a few hundred euro.

Unlike fine art, leather items are absolutely subject to duties when shipped to the US.

You should also be aware of use tax in your state. California is particularly a pain here. (This btw does apply to art but certainly applies to bags.) Many states don't have use tax.

Finally I would never, ever ship an exotic from France to the US. Too complicated. I'd rather fly over, get it, have a croissant, and carry it back. But, YMMV.



Hope that is of some help

*Schengen and the UK can get complex and I don't know enough to get into it, although I do import UK to France a lot.

You're the best @QuelleFromage!!! THank you! Yes that was the auction. I am in California so I am very grateful for your advice about duties and use taxes. I was tempted to bid and then fly over to pick it up (as you suggesdted!) since my DH will be in Europe in a few weeks, but ultimately I never heard back from the auction administrator about some key questions despite multiple outreaches. Is this normal in your experience? The Sotheby's phone team were nice and responsive but couldn't answer any questions so they forwarded my inquiry to the auction admin and "assured" me that this person would reply, but they never did.There was a date descrepancy in the descritpion and very little offered in the condition report so I was too hesitant to purchase given that I never heard back from the administrator and the high cost of shipping/customs/taxes. Curious, do you know what customs from EU to USA cost if I go this road again?

I remember reading from a poster purchasing an auction item from Christie's (Hermes bag) & she commented that
the shipping was much more than she anticipated. It is on the forum here I'm just not able to spot it for you
The details of the condition can also be vague from these auction houses if you don't have an opportunity
to see the bag or speak to a representative who can give more info..
Unless this is a bag that you must have the additional costs may lead you to look elsewhere, JMO

Thank you @Love Of My Life! As I wrote above, the auction administrator never got back to me so the very vague condition report was concerning to me and with only a few photos provided I was too gunshy to ultimately place a bid.

 

[QuelleFromage]

You're the best @QuelleFromage!!! THank you! Yes that was the auction. I am in California so I am very grateful for your advice about duties and use taxes. I was tempted to bid and then fly over to pick it up (as you suggesdted!) since my DH will be in Europe in a few weeks, but ultimately I never heard back from the auction administrator about some key questions despite multiple outreaches. Is this normal in your experience? The Sotheby's phone team were nice and responsive but couldn't answer any questions so they forwarded my inquiry to the auction admin and "assured" me that this person would reply, but they never did.There was a date descrepancy in the descritpion and very little offered in the condition report so I was too hesitant to purchase given that I never heard back from the administrator and the high cost of shipping/customs/taxes. Curious, do you know what customs from EU to USA cost if I go this road again?

Unfortunately auction houses are not always helpful. Sometimes they are AMAZING and sometimes, like you got, crickets.

There's a big thread about EU to US customs in Shopping (take it with a grain of salt though), but basically:

If you carry in the item, you have an $800 per person exemption and will probably pay 3-9% on the price of the item above that number (yes it's super variable, even gets waived sometimes).
If you have it shipped in, no exemption and you could pay as much as 20% (this happened to me with n item shipped direct from H Paris, fortunately it was a small item!). 10% is normal. Sometimes zero.

Use tax is a weird weird thing and totally unpredictable. When I lived in Cali, I would get dinged for this pretty often on fine art (which is otherwise duty-free on import as long as it falls within their actual definition of fine art). It's usually the same % as sales tax so it's meaningful.

FWIW..... I recently bought the same bag except with PHW, in what I would say is not nearly as good condition as the one in that auction, for about $7K USD from a Japanese seller. It'll probably refurbish to much better shape with the possible exception of the lock "smiley" (it's in my current avatar), which I don't mind at all, in fact I like it. In the end I wasn't charged any duties at all for the shipment from Japan. So, I would say, you can and will find this bag again.

 

[peonies13]

Unfortunately auction houses are not always helpful. Sometimes they are AMAZING and sometimes, like you got, crickets.

There's a big thread about EU to US customs in Shopping (take it with a grain of salt though), but basically:

If you carry in the item, you have an $800 per person exemption and will probably pay 3-9% on the price of the item above that number (yes it's super variable, even gets waived sometimes).
If you have it shipped in, no exemption and you could pay as much as 20% (this happened to me with n item shipped direct from H Paris, fortunately it was a small item!). 10% is normal. Sometimes zero.

Use tax is a weird weird thing and totally unpredictable. When I lived in Cali, I would get dinged for this pretty often on fine art (which is otherwise duty-free on import as long as it falls within their actual definition of fine art). It's usually the same % as sales tax so it's meaningful.

FWIW..... I recently bought the same bag except with PHW, in what I would say is not nearly as good condition as the one in that auction, for about $7K USD from a Japanese seller. It'll probably refurbish to much better shape with the possible exception of the lock "smiley" (it's in my current avatar), which I don't mind at all, in fact I like it. In the end I wasn't charged any duties at all for the shipment from Japan. So, I would say, you can and will find this bag again.

Ug, glad it's not just me with the crickets... I thought maybe I'd somehow stepped on someone's toes by asking questions!

Than you for the tip on the import. The $800 exemption, is that something assessed at the airport? You said sometimes it gets waived, so I'm guessing it's some kind of in-person situation? I assumed if you brought a bag back as your own, nobody would notice? I did that once and didn't even realize it was an issue.

Yikes, sales tax by us is high so that'd be a lot of use tax! Good tip!

I was really hard pressed to pass but I was afraid to go ahead without any word from the auction administrator. Perhaps I made a mistake to miss out on one in good condition (it was beautiful!), but I had to go with my gut. So that's all to say, right this minute I'm very grateful you've given me a little hope that I can find it again! Do you mind posting or DMing me the name of the Japanese reseller you trust? I know there's one on eBay but for the life of me I can't remember the shop name.

 

[_gelato_]

Out of interest, which bag were you eyeing?

 

[allanrvj]

I'm considering purchasing a bag from Sotheby's online (the auction is out of the Paris branch, closing tomorrow) and have never done any buying with Sotheby's before... has anyone purchased and can help me figure out what the total cost will be?

I'm reading their T&C in detail and it seems that on top of the "hammer price", I have to pay a 1% "overhead fee" plus a whopping 26% "buyer's premium", plus VAT. So the bag I'm looking at is €7k... let's pretend that's the winning bid... so if I'm doing this correctly, I'm looking at 7000 * 1.01 (1% overhead) * 1.26 (26% buyers premium) and that comes to €8908 without VAT. I have no experience with VAT and my googling isn't giving me a clear answer (neither are Sotheby's help pages, plus have read a lot on these forums too but I remain confused) so from what I read, it's somewhere in the 20% range or even more? So pretending it's 20% VAT, then I again multiply by 1.2 and I'm coming out to €10,689... basically over a 1.5x upcharge on the price. Is this right?

Please let me me know if I'm doing this right/wrong because I'm wanting to make sure I don't get myself into a financial pickle! Here I was thinking "ooh, €7k would be a good price" but I'm glad I'm researching in advance, I think it might be out of my budget!

There was a member here who bought a bag from another auction house, Christie's, I believe. It was from an Italian socialite who unloaded a lot of her H stuff to Christie's.

When the bag arrived to her she was surprised that there was a strong smell of cigarette smoke, a detail that wasn't disclosed to her by Christie's, and so she was asking here how to remove that smell since the bag was rare and didn't want to return it. So you have to keep that in mind as well, if you are particular about odors and other details that are not present in the description.

 

[CTLover]

Ug, glad it's not just me with the crickets... I thought maybe I'd somehow stepped on someone's toes by asking questions!

Than you for the tip on the import. The $800 exemption, is that something assessed at the airport? You said sometimes it gets waived, so I'm guessing it's some kind of in-person situation? I assumed if you brought a bag back as your own, nobody would notice? I did that once and didn't even realize it was an issue.

Yikes, sales tax by us is high so that'd be a lot of use tax! Good tip!

I was really hard pressed to pass but I was afraid to go ahead without any word from the auction administrator. Perhaps I made a mistake to miss out on one in good condition (it was beautiful!), but I had to go with my gut. So that's all to say, right this minute I'm very grateful you've given me a little hope that I can find it again! Do you mind posting or DMing me the name of the Japanese reseller you trust? I know there's one on eBay but for the life of me I can't remember the shop name.

My experience has been that you declare everything on that form they give you to fill out on the plane. Despite declaring a number of high priced items through the years, I've only ever been pulled over once to pay the taxes. That was on a Hermès watch I bought in Paris, and they only charged me tax on the value of the leather strap (not the watch itself), and the extra strap I bought to go with it. Last year I bought a $10,000 Chanel jacket, and a $2000 Burbury coat in London and declared both. Never got pulled over, and never got mailed a bill.

 

[peonies13]

Out of interest, which bag were you eyeing?

@_gelato_ it was a dream bag for me... an HAC32 smooth barenia GHW... beautiful!

There was a member here who bought a bag from another auction house, Christie's, I believe. It was from an Italian socialite who unloaded a lot of her H stuff to Christie's.

When the bag arrived to her she was surprised that there was a strong smell of cigarette smoke, a detail that wasn't disclosed to her by Christie's, and so she was asking here how to remove that smell since the bag was rare and didn't want to return it. So you have to keep that in mind as well, if you are particular about odors and other details that are not present in the description.

I feel so validated!!! Thank you @allanrvj!!! This is exactly what I was worried about. What did the member do about her H bag that smelled? Do you know how it worked out? I inquired about the date stamp (since there was an inconsistency in the listing) and about odors since I've had that issue with vintage purchase in the past. Because I never heard back I wasn't willing to take the risk since strong odors can trigger my allergies.

My experience has been that you declare everything on that form they give you to fill out on the plane. Despite declaring a number of high priced items through the years, I've only ever been pulled over once to pay the taxes. That was on a Hermès watch I bought in Paris, and they only charged me tax on the value of the leather strap (not the watch itself), and the extra strap I bought to go with it. Last year I bought a $10,000 Chanel jacket, and a $2000 Burbury coat in London and declared both. Never got pulled over, and never got mailed a bill.

Oh this sounds so much easier than I thought @CTLover... maybe I will not be hesitant to purchase there and go home! Is the on-plane declaration form you're talking about for inbound USA customs (i.e separate from getting the VAT refunded, yes)?