Congratulations to Big Brown, your owner, your trainer and your rider.
It's a shame such a tragedy sullied your victory.
It's a shame such a tragedy sullied your victory.
Kentucky Derby - anyone watching? favorites?
- Thread starter maxter
- Start date
Oh please. Animals can be domesticated and live with humans for reasons other than gambling or dinner. Even competition in itself isn't necessarily a problem - but the amount of money involved increases the extremity of the competition.
Some animals can but raising a horse is a bit more complicated than a gerbil or a dog. It's expensive and time consuming. I can't tell you exactly how expensive right now but I can tell you tomorrow, my coworker lives on a farm and pays for it by boarding horses and selling hay. Between the cost of items in general and the drought a lot of people are rethinking if it's worth it. You need more people to be inspired by the publicity that those competitions bring or there will just be a lot fewer horses.
Yes, I did have you confused w/ someone else.
Where did I say your opinon wasn't valid? I can't find it.
Really? I'd like to know the ratio of broken legs in professional sports compared to that of horse racing. Also, I can agree that horses might be happy when they're out running (even though neither you nor I can read their minds), but I think they'd rather be running in the wild on or a farm compared to running in a pitted dirt track with someone on their back spurring them and whipping on to keep running as hard as they possibly can.
*edit*
From Wiki
"One tenth of all Thoroughbreds suffer orthopedic problems, including fractures.[22] Current estimates indicate that there are 1.5 career-ending breakdowns for every 1,000 horses starting a race in the United States, an average of two horses per day. The state of California reported a particularly high rate of injury, 3.5 per 1000 starts.[89] As a ratio (of injuries with eventually fatal complications to total competitions), this is far in excess of all other legal human and animal sports, including boxing, motorsports and greyhound racing.[90]"
So...where's your argument for that?
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It's not the actual act of horseracing that I have a problem with - it's the steadily growing level of irresponsibility that many breeders are approaching the sport with. These animals are bred purely for speed, not durability, and when you combine that high-intensity races where the horse is forced to put all its weight on one leg at a time, it can easily become a lethal combination. Many of them are too young to race, as their joints are not developed to support such extreme racing. Eight Belles came from a long line of horses known for their unsoundness, and her previous trainer was quoted as saying "it's not a matter of whether this filly will break down or not, but when." It's also interesting to note that Eight Belles shared common ancestry with Barbaro, who also suffered a catastrophic break down not long ago. It's fine to be in favor of horseracing as a sport, but it's naive to ignore the fact that human carelessness causes these horses deaths, not random chance.
What source is this...I mean besides "Wiki"....which isn't really a source...it's just a place to amass information.
And I'm not trying to argue w/ anyone. I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe. Why is that an argument?
There is no way anyone can ever convince me that these horses run under complete duress. Unless you have spent time around these race horses you cannot understand their love for running. They live for it. NO ATHLETE, animal or human, can perform at their best without top care and training. I think second in the Kentucky Derby is about top as it gets, frankly. Her accident was just that. An accident. It's not a commonplace occurance. Honestly, I can't remember ever having seen a horse injure themselves like this PULLING UP after a race. It was an accident. Tragic, but an accident.
From today's WSJ.
Eight Belles, shown before her second-place finish in the Kentucky Derby on Saturday, came from a line with a history of leg problems.
Derby Death Stirs Call for Change
Breeding Practices Are Questioned;
'At a Crisis State'
By JON WEINBACH
May 5, 2008; Page A3
The death of another high-profile horse after a Triple Crown race is raising concerns about questionable breeding practices and has some breeders and veterinarians demanding change in thoroughbred racing.
Eight Belles finished second in Saturday's Kentucky Derby and was euthanized by injection on the track after breaking both front ankles. The filly was the second recent Derby standout to suffer this fate, after Barbaro, the 2006 champion, had to be put down after suffering a leg injury at the 2006 Preakness Stakes.
Both horses were members of a prolific equine family that descends from the stallion Native Dancer, a champion from the 1950s whose bloodline is prized by breeders for producing precociously fast horses that excel at the Kentucky Derby -- a race restricted to 3-year-olds.
But just as Native Dancer's career was cut short by leg injuries, his descendants have shown the same fragile tendencies. If breeders and owners continue to tap this bloodline at the same rate, some say Saturday's grim spectacle is likely to be repeated.
"We are at a crisis state," said Larry Bramlage, a prominent equine orthopedic surgeon from Lexington, Ky., who inspected Eight Belles on the track at Churchill Downs after Saturday's race. "The soundness of the horses has completely gone out the window because we don't reward it anymore," he says. "Pretty soon we won't have animals that can go in more than one race."
Richard Porter, Eight Belles' owner, was unavailable for comment Sunday. "I don't see that there will be any legislated mandates regarding the breeding of horses," says Alex Waldrop, the president of the National Thoroughbred Racing Association, an umbrella organization for horse racing. "This industry is 100% committed to the safety of the horses."
Anne Peters, the matings adviser for Three Chimneys Farm in Midway, Ky., the farm that bred Eight Belles, said "there is a blessing and there is a curse" that comes with Native Dancer's genes. "Many of the family's descendants tend to pass on unsoundness," she said, with many suffering similar injuries because their legs have "heavy muscling" that can overwhelm their ankles and feet during a race.
Ms. Peters said that despite the nature of the leg injury suffered by Eight Belles and the long history of leg problems in her extended family, the horse "was not inherently unsound" and had appeared to be fit before the race.
Native Dancer's bloodline is noted among breeders for its ability to transmit its strong racing traits through both sons and daughters. The last 14 Kentucky Derby winners, including this year's winner, Big Brown, are descendants of Native Dancer. The last Triple Crown winner, Affirmed, is a relative, as is Cigar, the sport's all-time money leader, and Curlin, the world's richest current racehorse. All 20 thoroughbreds in Saturday's Kentucky Derby had Native Dancer in their pedigrees. Eight Belles had more of Native Dancer's DNA than nearly all the others. She was related to Native Dancer through three grandparents.
For the last 15 years, as prices for young horses have risen, the thoroughbred gene pool has been shrinking. The average price for a 1-year-old horse at the annual Keeneland yearling sale has risen 41% since 2002 to $101,347, and with more money on the line, breeders are narrowing the breeding field to fewer big-name stallions. The number of stallions that produced offspring has dropped by about 50% since 1992, according to the Jockey Club.
Ric Waldman, an independent thoroughbred consultant in Lexington, Ky., said attempts by some farms to expand the gene pool by importing stallions with new bloodlines haven't been supported by breeders and owners. "They want something that they can recognize and they feel has a better chance of success," he says.
Since Barbaro's injury, the Keeneland Association has hosted two summits on the "Welfare and Safety of the Racehorse" to study the reasons modern horses aren't racing as often as they used to.
The average number of races for thoroughbred starters has fallen 44% since 1960 to 6.31 in 2007 -- an all-time low.
Many industry insiders believe the injury to Eight Belles is a systemic problem. Jerry Brown, president of Thorograph, a New York-based firm that provides data and thoroughbred consulting to owners, breeders, and bettors, says the main issue is that the breeder market rewards big, good-looking yearlings that sell for a lot of money, without taking into account their sturdiness. "What the market asks for, it's going to get," he said. "It's about money and it's about ego."
Eight Belles, shown before her second-place finish in the Kentucky Derby on Saturday, came from a line with a history of leg problems.
Derby Death Stirs Call for Change
Breeding Practices Are Questioned;
'At a Crisis State'
By JON WEINBACH
May 5, 2008; Page A3
The death of another high-profile horse after a Triple Crown race is raising concerns about questionable breeding practices and has some breeders and veterinarians demanding change in thoroughbred racing.
Eight Belles finished second in Saturday's Kentucky Derby and was euthanized by injection on the track after breaking both front ankles. The filly was the second recent Derby standout to suffer this fate, after Barbaro, the 2006 champion, had to be put down after suffering a leg injury at the 2006 Preakness Stakes.
Both horses were members of a prolific equine family that descends from the stallion Native Dancer, a champion from the 1950s whose bloodline is prized by breeders for producing precociously fast horses that excel at the Kentucky Derby -- a race restricted to 3-year-olds.
But just as Native Dancer's career was cut short by leg injuries, his descendants have shown the same fragile tendencies. If breeders and owners continue to tap this bloodline at the same rate, some say Saturday's grim spectacle is likely to be repeated.
"We are at a crisis state," said Larry Bramlage, a prominent equine orthopedic surgeon from Lexington, Ky., who inspected Eight Belles on the track at Churchill Downs after Saturday's race. "The soundness of the horses has completely gone out the window because we don't reward it anymore," he says. "Pretty soon we won't have animals that can go in more than one race."
Richard Porter, Eight Belles' owner, was unavailable for comment Sunday. "I don't see that there will be any legislated mandates regarding the breeding of horses," says Alex Waldrop, the president of the National Thoroughbred Racing Association, an umbrella organization for horse racing. "This industry is 100% committed to the safety of the horses."
Anne Peters, the matings adviser for Three Chimneys Farm in Midway, Ky., the farm that bred Eight Belles, said "there is a blessing and there is a curse" that comes with Native Dancer's genes. "Many of the family's descendants tend to pass on unsoundness," she said, with many suffering similar injuries because their legs have "heavy muscling" that can overwhelm their ankles and feet during a race.
Ms. Peters said that despite the nature of the leg injury suffered by Eight Belles and the long history of leg problems in her extended family, the horse "was not inherently unsound" and had appeared to be fit before the race.
Native Dancer's bloodline is noted among breeders for its ability to transmit its strong racing traits through both sons and daughters. The last 14 Kentucky Derby winners, including this year's winner, Big Brown, are descendants of Native Dancer. The last Triple Crown winner, Affirmed, is a relative, as is Cigar, the sport's all-time money leader, and Curlin, the world's richest current racehorse. All 20 thoroughbreds in Saturday's Kentucky Derby had Native Dancer in their pedigrees. Eight Belles had more of Native Dancer's DNA than nearly all the others. She was related to Native Dancer through three grandparents.
For the last 15 years, as prices for young horses have risen, the thoroughbred gene pool has been shrinking. The average price for a 1-year-old horse at the annual Keeneland yearling sale has risen 41% since 2002 to $101,347, and with more money on the line, breeders are narrowing the breeding field to fewer big-name stallions. The number of stallions that produced offspring has dropped by about 50% since 1992, according to the Jockey Club.
Ric Waldman, an independent thoroughbred consultant in Lexington, Ky., said attempts by some farms to expand the gene pool by importing stallions with new bloodlines haven't been supported by breeders and owners. "They want something that they can recognize and they feel has a better chance of success," he says.
Since Barbaro's injury, the Keeneland Association has hosted two summits on the "Welfare and Safety of the Racehorse" to study the reasons modern horses aren't racing as often as they used to.
The average number of races for thoroughbred starters has fallen 44% since 1960 to 6.31 in 2007 -- an all-time low.
Many industry insiders believe the injury to Eight Belles is a systemic problem. Jerry Brown, president of Thorograph, a New York-based firm that provides data and thoroughbred consulting to owners, breeders, and bettors, says the main issue is that the breeder market rewards big, good-looking yearlings that sell for a lot of money, without taking into account their sturdiness. "What the market asks for, it's going to get," he said. "It's about money and it's about ego."
I don't know if we can say that this filly injured herself, how do we know that those immature legs didn't snap because of the stress of racing? Too fast, too soon, surely that is a possibility?
Sure it is. There's all kinds of speculation on how such a terrible injury could have happened.
Does most of your racing occur on the grass or dirt? I catch a few AUS races on TVG and it seems you have a pretty consistant mix of surfaces.
All major/mid-level racing here is conducted on turf and the "low-level" tracks are dirt.