Food Flatware Requirements, Dinnerware Size, and Ease of Use

[amateurjeweler]

Hello, Kitchen Forum!

I recently moved into a loft with my partner and we are in our nesting phase. Both of us grew up using a basic five piece flatware place setting (dinner fork, salad fork, tablespoon, teaspoon, dinner/"butter" knife) at home and other utensils (i.e. steak knife, lobster/nutcracker, etc.) as needed. We both enjoy fine dining and the ease of use of proper flatware and tableware when available, but most of the people we know use basic five piece flatware at home and have their formal dinners catered at venues as opposed to their own homes.

My goal is that even the informal dinners we may host for parties of 4 - 6 people at our loft allow for guests to use flatware in an easy and graceful manner, and that we grow accustomed to using proper dining etiquette so that it becomes second nature instead of a "performance" on special occasions. We recently purchased a white china set and flatware service for 12 that includes most pieces of flatware that we've been missing, such as dessert, bouillon, and iced tea spoons, but I have some questions about the pieces we do and don't have.

First, we elected to to purchase our dinner knives and forks in the American size rather than the larger European size. I assume that this should be adequate for the informal and semi-formal dinners we plan to host, but does anyone here take objection to this?

Second, as we keep a vegan household, we decided to forego the oyster fork and fish knife (which as far as I know is a Victorian-era middle class affectation that the bourgeoisie of that time mocked people for using). Even in the highly unlikely chance we decide to serve shrimp cocktail or clams on the half shell we would serve the shrimp with the tail on, and I've seen very few people eat clams on the half shell with utensils these days. Are there other uses for oyster forks I'm not anticipating or are we fine without them?

Third, we elected not to purchase demitasse spoons because we don't have an espresso machine and we drink either water or tisane after our evening meals. Does anyone use demitasse spoons for something other than espresso on a regular basis?

Fourth, the flatware service we chose only offered one soup spoon and it is a "bouillon spoon." To my knowledge it was once common for flatware services to include two soup spoons, a larger one for heartier meat-based soups and stews and a smaller "bouillon spoon" for broth-based soups. I'm sure the bouillon spoon will rise to the challenge of any vegan lentil, minestrone, or tomato rice soup we throw at it, but do you think most guests will be fine using bouillon spoons for things like a heartier potato or vegetable soup?

Fifth, our service didn't offer a dessert fork. I have no qualms about placing a salad fork above a dessert spoon while serving something like pie a l mode, but will it suffice?

Finally, in the name of promoting proper everyday portions we decided to use rimmed 9" buffet/luncheon plates as dinner plates and then scaled down the rest of the dishes appropriately, so that we have 7" salad plates, 6" bread and dessert plates, and 6" coupe soup bowls. I originally wanted proper rimmed soup bowls but 6" to 7" rimmed soup bowls don't hold very many ounces of soup. We didn't purchase charger plates, as most are about 13" and would overwhelm a 9" plate, so I've decided to hunt for 10" to 11" pattern-rimmed china to serve that purpose. Historically standard dinner plates were 9" but recently they've grown anywhere from 10.5" to 12", which I find a little ridiculous, so we had to make some concessions in order to approximate the size of a vintage dinnerware service using modern china. Am I crazy or has anyone else done this?

Thank you for any and all comments and advice! I am eagerly awaiting responses, and I'll be sure to post our experiences using this dinnerware and flatware, as well as guests' reactions, in the coming months

 

[JenW]

I am such a flatware-tableware geek that I fired up my laptop to answer so I could do more typing (usually I read on my phone where it's really hard to quote).

First, let me say that it's YOUR table and you can do what you want as long as it doesn't unduly inconvenience your guests.

First, we elected to to purchase our dinner knives and forks in the American size rather than the larger European size. I assume that this should be adequate for the informal and semi-formal dinners we plan to host, but does anyone here take objection to this?

I'm old and I've done a lot of dinner parties. IME most Americans won't even notice the difference. I use Ricci Argentieri flatware, which is larger than American size but a smidgen smaller than Continental size, and people comment that it feels "substantial" but they never mention its length. I am one of the only people who even notice when flatware is Continental length, and that's only because I'm a bit of a flatware geek. Most Americans have only ever seen American size flatware.

And certainly anyone who DOES notice would never be rude enough to comment on it! Other than to compliment you on your taste.

Are there other uses for oyster forks I'm not anticipating or are we fine without them?

Oyster forks can also be used for pickles, appetizers, and shrimp cocktails. I have never owned or used them; when I serve those things, I treat them as "finger foods". I usually serve those items in an Italian "family style" meal where people are using salad forks for appetizers.

Third, we elected not to purchase demitasse spoons because we don't have an espresso machine and we drink either water or tisane after our evening meals. Does anyone use demitasse spoons for something other than espresso on a regular basis?

I haven't seen demitasse spoons used for anything but espresso. I only serve coffee or tea after meals, so I serve with teaspoons.

Fourth, the flatware service we chose only offered one soup spoon and it is a "bouillon spoon." ... do you think most guests will be fine using bouillon spoons for things like a heartier potato or vegetable soup?

It used to be common for there to be a "cream soup" spoon that was almost perfectly round, and a "place spoon" that was more oval that was used for everything else of a liquid consistency. Cream soup spoons are somewhat rare these days. My Ricci flatware has only a place spoon, so that's what I use for everything, be it a cream soup or a minestrone.

Fifth, our service didn't offer a dessert fork. I have no qualms about placing a salad fork above a dessert spoon while serving something like pie a l mode, but will it suffice?

I think it's fine to serve dessert with a salad fork, and that's what I do. I bought extra salad forks and tea spoons to use for dessert.

Finally, in the name of promoting proper everyday portions we decided to use rimmed 9" buffet/luncheon plates as dinner plates and then scaled down the rest of the dishes appropriately, so that we have 7" salad plates, 6" bread and dessert plates, and 6" coupe soup bowls. I originally wanted proper rimmed soup bowls but 6" to 7" rimmed soup bowls don't hold very many ounces of soup. We didn't purchase charger plates, as most are about 13" and would overwhelm a 9" plate, so I've decided to hunt for 10" to 11" pattern-rimmed china to serve that purpose. Historically standard dinner plates were 9" but recently they've grown anywhere from 10.5" to 12", which I find a little ridiculous, so we had to make some concessions in order to approximate the size of a vintage dinnerware service using modern china. Am I crazy or has anyone else done this?

I don't think you're crazy.

That being said, personally I prefer the way modern plating looks -- small portions on a large plate, with a lot of rim around the food for a decorative drizzle or sprinkle of chopped herbs. One of the reasons dinner plate sizes have grown is because the way food is "styled" by modern chefs is different now than it used to be.

Another reason modern dinner plates are larger is because dinner parties used to involve 7 courses or more (hence the need for all of that flatware, too) so entre portions were smaller because there had been many other courses served before that 9" dinner plate came out.

Re: the soup bowls, rimmed soups are designed to hold cream soups which are typically served in small portions, that's why they're shallow. I often serve risotto in mine, or any starter soup course like minestrone or chicken soup. You can also use coupe bowls if you prefer.

If you're still looking for china, check out the Bernardaud Louvre pattern. It's at Bloomingdales (I think Macys is no longer carrying it). Gorgeous white porcelain, still made in Limoges France, with embossed motifs around the rim. I have it for my everyday and I love it. It dresses up or down, the plates aren't huge, and it comes with coup bowls.

 

[JenW]

Oh just FYI, the only utensil I added to the basic 5-piece flatware was butter spreaders. I know you're vegan so you won't need them, but I often serve bread with dinner, and even when I'm dining informally I prefer to have a separate bread plate and butter spreader. Other than that, it's the 5 piece for me.

 

[amateurjeweler]

Thank you for the feedback, JenW! It helped us make some decisions.
If we find we do need demitasse spoons, dessert forks and spoons, or appetizer forks, we're going to treat them as "accent flatware" and they'll have more elaborate designs than our relatively basic flatware. In the meantime we're fine without them.
In addition, we will eventually purchase rimmed soup bowls for our fine china pattern, but for our everyday use workhorse china we're fine with the coupe bowls.
Our "bouillon spoons" actually are round cream spoons and we found that they're wonderful for eating things like tomato soup. We'll serve heartier fare with our place spoons.
We drink mostly tea and coffee, which the teaspoons are naturally suited for, but I'm glad we have the slender iced teaspoons for taller glasses.
I'm also glad we opted for American sized dinner forks as I prefer them, and it's a relief to hear that most people won't be expecting them.
As for the plating size, that definitely makes sense! We found that we really enjoy using the 9" plates, but we also like filling up our plates, as it gives us the visual cue of abundance that the same amount of food on larger plates just doesn't. It helps that most home cooked vegan foods don't lend themselves well to artful plating, but now I understand the value of the larger plates and will order them for our fine china.
We did order butter knives because they're nice for spreading margarine, nut butters, and preserves evenly without leaving those unappetizing serrated indentations in our tubs of earth balance and the like.
Thank you for the Bernardaud suggestion, it's a really lovely pattern, and it's nice to see that it's produced in Limoges, France. We already ordered Wedgwood's Renaissance Gold for our fine china, but I will keep Louvre in mind if we find we need something as elegant but not as dramatic as the Renaissance.

 

[JenW]

Thank you for the feedback, JenW! It helped us make some decisions.
If we find we do need demitasse spoons, dessert forks and spoons, or appetizer forks, we're going to treat them as "accent flatware" and they'll have more elaborate designs than our relatively basic flatware. In the meantime we're fine without them.
In addition, we will eventually purchase rimmed soup bowls for our fine china pattern, but for our everyday use workhorse china we're fine with the coupe bowls.
Thank you for the Bernardaud suggestion, it's a really lovely pattern, and it's nice to see that it's produced in Limoges, France. We already ordered Wedgwood's Renaissance Gold for our fine china, but I will keep Louvre in mind if we find we need something as elegant but not as dramatic as the Renaissance.

I'm glad I could help.

I love the Wedgwood Renaissance Gold! I used to have that pattern in a tea and dessert service. So pretty that I attached a photo of the pattern for others to see.

I like the idea of mixing the flatware patterns. I do that when I feel the need to have additional pieces -- I borrow dessert spoons, etc from a friend if I need to. I live in a small apartment and it definitely forces one to borrow when necessary.

One of the best suggestions I ever got, from an older friend who does the most elegant home entertaining, was to purchase at least some of my dinnerware and serveware in a plain design that would "go with" my patterned items. I have rimmed soup bowls in white porcelain with a gold rim (the pattern is from Bernardaud and it's called Palmyre); they go with any china I choose to use, and I enjoy the flexibility. I've also gravitated toward white china and I use patterns in my serving pieces and linens. I know others who go with plain serveware and gravitate towards patterned china.

Please do post pictures of your tablescapes. I'd love to see them.

 

[coconutsboston]

I love the Wedgewood Renaissance Gold, and I have it too. It is stunning in person.