SNAD case, escalate after Bonanza ruled for seller?

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enamored

O.G.
Mar 16, 2010
529
5
Southern CA
I am beyond upset with Bonanza. I bought a Hermes Clous de Selle bracelet described in very good condition. I couldn't open it (they have a push-down-and-slide mechanism). When I informed the seller she then informed me the thing was stiff and told me how she'd had to have help opening it in the past, and it hadn't been used in a while but asserted that it did work. Long story short, when I applied some pressure to open it, it snapped apart. There was corrosion inside the joint. She wouldn't refund, and Bonanza finally ruled in her favor saying the bracelet had been sent in working order. Needless to say, I disagree and am really furious. The seller accused me of buyer's remorse and purposely breaking the bracelet. Do you think Paypal can help me? What are my chances since Bonanza has made a determination against me?
 

BeenBurned

Coach, Dooney, Uggs
Authenticator
O.G.
Feb 25, 2007
45,473
11,505
East Coast, USA
If you paid with Paypal, you have protection against SNAD and should take advantage of it. That's why the protection is there. Or if you used a credit card to fund it, you can file a dispute with the c.c. company.

In the meantime, take clear and definitive pictures showing the corrosion to point out why the bracelet didn't open properly.

Frankly, I don't know how Bonz could rule as they did. They didn't see the bracelet so how do they know that "the bracelet had been sent in working order?"

In this case, although I suggest filing a dispute with PP, appeal the case with Bonz and point out the seller's own admission that she had trouble with the clasp too. (Hopefully, her messages were through Bonz's messaging system so they can see them.)
 

enamored

O.G.
Mar 16, 2010
529
5
Southern CA
Thanks BeenBurned. Yes, all the evidence that the seller knew about the condition is in the emails on the Bonz system. Can Paypal see those or do I need to somehow copy and paste them? I don't have a good enough camera to get inside the joint; it's hard to see with the naked eye. I'll escalate and post back here when I've heard something.
 

BeenBurned

Coach, Dooney, Uggs
Authenticator
O.G.
Feb 25, 2007
45,473
11,505
East Coast, USA
Thanks BeenBurned. Yes, all the evidence that the seller knew about the condition is in the emails on the Bonz system. Can Paypal see those or do I need to somehow copy and paste them? I don't have a good enough camera to get inside the joint; it's hard to see with the naked eye. I'll escalate and post back here when I've heard something.
No, paypal can't see the bonz messages so you'd have to let them know what was said.

As for pictures, good clear macro shots will really help your case if you can get them. You don't need a fancy camera for clear closeups; just a bit of practice using the macro function on your digital camera. (Macro is usually indicated by a tulip or flower icon on the dial but sometimes it's in the menu.)

The macro function allows very close up pictures from just inches away from the item. You might need to experiment with it, moving it to focus on the correct part of the target but it can be done and is very effective.
 

uadjit

D.Va
Jul 21, 2011
4,526
125
Somewhere that's green
I am beyond upset with Bonanza. I bought a Hermes Clous de Selle bracelet described in very good condition. I couldn't open it (they have a push-down-and-slide mechanism). When I informed the seller she then informed me the thing was stiff and told me how she'd had to have help opening it in the past, and it hadn't been used in a while but asserted that it did work. Long story short, when I applied some pressure to open it, it snapped apart. There was corrosion inside the joint. She wouldn't refund, and Bonanza finally ruled in her favor saying the bracelet had been sent in working order. Needless to say, I disagree and am really furious. The seller accused me of buyer's remorse and purposely breaking the bracelet. Do you think Paypal can help me? What are my chances since Bonanza has made a determination against me?
Bonanza's rulings are pretty irrelevant as far as your payment is concerned. They have no input when it comes to a PayPal case you might open (which is what you should do). When you get a Bonz message you should also get a copy in your email. Hopefully you have all of those emails to present to PP.

Also, you will have to return the bracelet, broken as it may be. Don't expect a refund before the bracelet is back in the seller's hands even if you win a PP case.
 

enamored

O.G.
Mar 16, 2010
529
5
Southern CA
Thanks for the responses. I just opened a case with Paypal and sent them the correspondence. I was able to get some photos of the corrosion - blurry but clearly show a brown area inside the joint. I need to buy a macro lens for my camera. I was able to get a live person at Paypal on the phone and they did verify that the Bonanza determination will have no weight. I think the seller is long established with Bonanza and I am not. I'm pretty miffed with Bonanza. They didn't communicate with me at all except with their canned responses.
 

marie-lou

Chocolate Heaven
O.G.
Dec 6, 2006
5,744
3
N 50° 53' E 04° 20'
I am very sorry Bonz sided with the seller!! I am glad you opened a PP case and hope they side with you. I have found it helpful to call Paypal, to speed things up and make sure they know your side of the story...
Good luck, enamored!
 

enamored

O.G.
Mar 16, 2010
529
5
Southern CA
I'm just thankful this is a $200 item and not $2,000. I've never had a single problem in dozens of transactions. The seller is in another country and it will cost $$$ to ship the thing back (I assume I'll be on the hook for return postage) but at this point it's almost more about the principal. I tried to work with the seller first - she was sugary sweet until I reported that the thing snapped. When I contacted her I was not confrontational at all but the response from her was all-out war.
 

enamored

O.G.
Mar 16, 2010
529
5
Southern CA
THE SELLER IS BUSTED!! The photos the seller submitted to prove her case were stolen from an ebay listing!! It's clear as day. She cropped 3 photos from a current listing but they have the same shadows. I was in disbelief when I saw the photos she had submitted because the clasp looked way better than the one I received and lo and behold, there they were, stolen from a seller in Japan and my seller is in the UK.
 

uadjit

D.Va
Jul 21, 2011
4,526
125
Somewhere that's green
enamored said:
THE SELLER IS BUSTED!! The photos the seller submitted to prove her case were stolen from an ebay listing!! It's clear as day. She cropped 3 photos from a current listing but they have the same shadows. I was in disbelief when I saw the photos she had submitted because the clasp looked way better than the one I received and lo and behold, there they were, stolen from a seller in Japan and my seller is in the UK.
That is totally shady. I shop on Bonz a lot and I's like to know who this seller is. Would you pm me the seller's ID?
 

enamored

O.G.
Mar 16, 2010
529
5
Southern CA
uadjiit, yes, absolutely, but let me get this case closed out first. I emailed the evidence to Paypal and to Bonanza, even though Bonanza has closed the case so maybe this seller will be dealt with and you won't have to worry about them.
 

BeenBurned

Coach, Dooney, Uggs
Authenticator
O.G.
Feb 25, 2007
45,473
11,505
East Coast, USA
THE SELLER IS BUSTED!! The photos the seller submitted to prove her case were stolen from an ebay listing!! It's clear as day. She cropped 3 photos from a current listing but they have the same shadows. I was in disbelief when I saw the photos she had submitted because the clasp looked way better than the one I received and lo and behold, there they were, stolen from a seller in Japan and my seller is in the UK.
Be sure to submit the photo proof to PP that shows that the pictures in the seller's listing were stolen from a Japanese seller's ebay listing.

It probably wouldn't hurt to also submit that evidence to Bonz to let them know why they made the wrong decision.
 

enamored

O.G.
Mar 16, 2010
529
5
Southern CA
BeenBurned, I did both. I've spent all day on this little $200 item. But I feel violated. It's so brazen. It would be so much easier if it was all on Ebay; it's been a lot of cutting and pasting today. Interestingly, she had emailed me photos of the boxing and shipping and the stolen photos were of course not in that group. They appeared only in proving her case to Bonanza. The lighting and quality of the stolen photos is noticeably better. I think I have a good chance now but if the seller does this kind of thing does the buyer ever get return postage?
 

enamored

O.G.
Mar 16, 2010
529
5
Southern CA
I just searched for the seller and found that she is a TPF member. In fact she has posted on this particular forum. I hope she is reading this.
 

BeenBurned

Coach, Dooney, Uggs
Authenticator
O.G.
Feb 25, 2007
45,473
11,505
East Coast, USA
BeenBurned, I did both. I've spent all day on this little $200 item. But I feel violated. It's so brazen. It would be so much easier if it was all on Ebay; it's been a lot of cutting and pasting today. Interestingly, she had emailed me photos of the boxing and shipping and the stolen photos were of course not in that group. They appeared only in proving her case to Bonanza. The lighting and quality of the stolen photos is noticeably better. I think I have a good chance now but if the seller does this kind of thing does the buyer ever get return postage?
Generally, for SNAD claims, you only get your full payment reimbursed but return shipping is on you.

However, many sellers will make a buyer whole when they realize that they were "at fault" or in error. I'm sure you wouldn't have purchased the item had you known it was corroded and the reasonable seller should realize that and in addition to profuse apologies, pay the return shipping as a goodwill gesture.

As for stealing pictures, I hope she learned her lesson! Not only is it unethical and dishonest to infringe on another seller's images, but in this case, it has come back to bite the seller.

I just searched for the seller and found that she is a TPF member. In fact she has posted on this particular forum. I hope she is reading this.
:lecture: Again, I hope this is a lesson to her.
 
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