How important is provenance to you when purchasing Hermès pieces?

[stillfabulous]

This article does a thorough job of explaining the concept of provenance--what it is and why it is important:

Provenance: What It Is and Why It Matters. - BellissimaFineArt.com

Provenance: What It Is and Why It Matters. From the French word, provenir, meaning “to come from,” provenance is the chronology of the ownership, custody, or location of an object. Provenance is the documentation used to authenticate a particular art piece. These documents are used in general...

www.bellissimafineart.com

How important is provenance to you when you purchase Hermès from anywhere other than an Hermès boutique? What particular aspect of provenance is compelling enough for you to confidently purchase Hermès without any concern regarding a piece's authenticity?

 

[880]

I care about provenance when DH and I purchase artwork. In our latest purchase, we traced provenance and also had two objective third party experts look at the piece to determine authenticity, age, and value (this was helpful to our representative in negotiating price of an antiquity)

In the case of artwork, I prefer to purchase from an established gallery who is expert in that field. I might consider purchasing from a private collector if provenance could be traced, but in either case, I would get at least one detailed expert opinion in writing and a verbal conversation (from an objective, unaffiliated expert) to clarify any issues or questions.*

With respect to a bag, I buy both boutique and well priced reputable reseller. I don’t care about paperwork like a receipt bc this can be forged. There is no piece of paper that I would trust in lieu of expert, professional, third party authentication.

I have the bag authenticated via photos prior to purchase, (@bababebi is highly recommended by many tpfers) and I check to ascertain that the condition is one that I am happy with. I purchase via PayPal fee based payment, backed by Amex.

I believe that hiring an expert and aftercare is part of owning an expensive bag or RTW. So I factor that into my cost.

ETA: for artwork under a certain amount, I simply rely on the reputation of the gallery in question. Should a piece prove fraudulent, a reputable will of course take the piece back and make the buyer whole. I am
fine with buying art with a wire transfer; however, I would never wire transfer for any bag. JMO and YMMV

 

[stillfabulous]

Thank you at @880.

I also collect artwork and wine. Provenance is important to me in these areas as well as in Hermès handbags.

 

[papertiger]

Unless there's a question of authenticity, provenance is not important. And actually, I think people who buy preloved, mostly don't like to think of where it's come from, the newer, and the less said the better. Do I think it should be, in these days of such ridiculous prices, maybe.

De Beers is using Tracr technology on diamonds from mine/miner to cut/polish and all the way through, every diamond will be traceable from mined and through every exchange. Even the 'lesser' diamonds (unworthy of -Tracr) have info laser-etched on their underside. I'm sure they'll do that with bags soon. How, not sure, because every natural diamond is unique, we will see. I can think of a way actually.

I think provenance is more important when buying an iconic piece. For instance, if I were buying Jane Birkin's Birkin, or one of Grace Kelly's Kelly, I would want documented evidence of that heritage in pictures, dry-cleaning tabs, receipts etc

I prefer to buy from friends that I know have maintained their H things well, but I can also judge an 'orphan' piece from inspecting. That's a more personal relationship to the energy that's touched the bag, but a bag is not blame for its owner(s) either.

Looking at my collection, most were bought new, a couple inherited, a few from friends and a couple preloved. I bought a RH Box Bolide from a Japanese reseller (physical store) and I considered myself lucky - totally irresistible, but it was missing its strap. Do I need to know where it came from? No, I just needed a strap. I bought an H croc bag with someone else's monogram from an agency/consignment, no doubt the initials made it a little more affordable. I'm proud to carry that (presumably) lady's property. From the age, I doubt the lady is still with us, I hope she'd be OK someone's looking after 'her' bag. Would I remove evidence of the bag's provenance in that case, it's important to treasure the bag's provenance.

 

[Veritybelle]

IME proper “provenance” is rarely available for H bags. I have one bag (a vintage Piano) which I bought from a vintage seller who was able to tell me the bag’s history (one now elderly English owner who had bought it from a Paris boutique in the 60s when she was living in Paris with her diplomat husband, and who had consigned it with the seller). It was a charming story (which I couldn’t have verified), but it didn’t particularly sway my purchase decision either way. I was more focused on condition and authenticity (based on the assessment of the bag’s manufacture rather than its history).

I have another preloved bag that I bought from a Japanese seller which came to me with the original Tokyo SA’s business card still tucked inside a pocket (where it had presumably been for the past 20 or so years). Again, I found that delightful as a clue to the past life of the bag, but of itself it does not amount to verifiable provenance.

I think provenance is more important when buying an iconic piece. For instance, if I were buying Jane Birkin's Birkin, or one of Grace Kelly's Kelly, I would want documented evidence of that heritage in pictures, dry-cleaning tabs, receipts etc

Agree with this. In this case the bag is more akin to an artwork on the secondary market, where provenance is very important as @880 has ably illustrated.

 

[QuelleFromage]

Provenance to me doesn't apply to bags/Hermès overall except in the very rare case that one has a bag or other H item from, say, an important estate. I believe one if not two members here have Hermès bags that belonged to Elizabeth Taylor; there are of course the Jane Birkin items; was there maybe an H item or two in the Elton John sale?

There are probably (ok, certainly) some people who would value an item that was in, say, Jamie Chua's collection, but that seems pretty niche.

In the (very possible) event that major museums do exhibitions of Hermès handbags, I can see valuing something from such an exhibition the same way one values such a track record with art. I have many artworks with tags from their time at the Met or the Guggenheim etc., and it's fun to know the piece was hung in such a place. I also know a Chanel collector who owns quite a few Chanel pieces (suits mainly) that were in the Met exhibit...that is provenance.

Personally I do have several bags that once belonged to friends and family members, but that's not provenance, it's history and sentimental meaning.

 

[jellyv]

What particular aspect of provenance is compelling enough for you to confidently purchase Hermès without any concern regarding a piece's authenticity?

The answer in both cases is: the truth. Can there be faked provenance? Yes. Can there be faked bags? Yes. Only authenticity gives an Hermes item its quality and value as a baseline. If it's from fancy origins, all the better to some (arguably)--but without authenticity, provenance flakes away like dust.

And I think provenance as applied to Hermes is somewhere between weird and irrelevant as a consideration to all but a tiny, maybe imaginary, fraction of H consumers.

 

[stillfabulous]

And I think provenance as applied to Hermes is somewhere between weird and irrelevant as a consideration to all but a tiny, maybe imaginary, fraction of H consumers.

I occasionally use a high-end reseller to sell personal Hermes bags I originally purchased from an Hermes boutique, but for whatever reason I no longer wear. She has implemented a firm no exception policy of only accepting an Hermes bag from her clients with the original Hermes boutique receipt. Why? The super fakes are too good nowadays. She needs to protect her reputation.

Can receipts be faked? Certainly. But since she and I have both been Hermes clients for 40+ years, we know how to spot fake receipts. Caveat emptor.