Mrssparkles, I totally agree. I love both retourne and sellier. I've been using a Kelly 32 retourne in Chevre de Coromandel for years and it has held its shape extremely well. Absolutely no sagging whatsoever!^^ this is so true. I find the retourne more casual than the sellier, and it's the retourne construction that opens up the top automatically anyway. I love the sellier because I know the shape will hold up so much better. I do choose to use the retourne or the sellier according to the nature of my outings for that day.