Help please - I am scammed of an Hermes item

mudmud

The Orange Wiggle
O.G.
Oct 13, 2006
1,014
4
Hello all,

Firstly, sorry for creating this thread - I'm not sure where else to go. It's so nice to be back after a long time away. I haven't been on tPF for many years because I've been busy with other things in life. However, I have run into some unexpected bad luck and I hope I may be able to find some help from all the kind members here. Apologies in advance for a long story to follow.

in 2009 we've bought some Hermes Attelage cutleries from Hermes in Paris. They are too precious for us to use and we've never used them so recently we've sold them on eBay. Unfortunately the buyer, who could be a scammer, filed a return alleging the items are non-authentic because the markings on them differ to the ones that they own already. I made the mistake of escalating the case and for those familiar with eBay, the likelihood is that they would decide in the buyers favour. Of course that's what happened, and I've lost my money as well as my cutleries. I've asked the buyer numerous times to show me what he meant by difference in markings as my listing show my cutlery's markings. I also asked the buyer to authenticate AT HERMES yet he did it with a third-party.

Unfortunately, I no longer have the purchase invoice and for some reason the buyer managed to provide eBay with a third-party authenticator to say they're counterfeits. Now we're the only ones to know that they are undoubtedly authentic because we've bought them personally in Paris.

eBay's policy means I couldn't even see the documentation that made eBay satisfied with the buyer's claim.

I've contacted Hermes customer service but they're not able to answer my question on whether markings on cutleries could have changed over time, and a fax to the 24 FSH store asking for a copy of my original purchase receipt in 2009 haven't yielded any results yet (I hope they read their faxes). I live in Australia, so it's difficult to get in touch with the 24 FSH store.

The authentication threads don't cover Hermes cutleries, so I haven't posted there, but with so many experts here, I thought I'd reach out too see if anyone could point me in the right direction on where to get help regarding this?

The monetary loss is one thing, but it's also a matter of principle for me to get to the bottom of this.

Thanks so much for reading this and I really appreciate any advice, if posting a public reply is not appropriate, please feel free to PM me directly if you need me to explain the situation in more detail.
 
Mar 26, 2009
18,989
23,080
Hello all,

Firstly, sorry for creating this thread - I'm not sure where else to go. It's so nice to be back after a long time away. I haven't been on tPF for many years because I've been busy with other things in life. However, I have run into some unexpected bad luck and I hope I may be able to find some help from all the kind members here. Apologies in advance for a long story to follow.

in 2009 we've bought some Hermes Attelage cutleries from Hermes in Paris. They are too precious for us to use and we've never used them so recently we've sold them on eBay. Unfortunately the buyer, who could be a scammer, filed a return alleging the items are non-authentic because the markings on them differ to the ones that they own already. I made the mistake of escalating the case and for those familiar with eBay, the likelihood is that they would decide in the buyers favour. Of course that's what happened, and I've lost my money as well as my cutleries. I've asked the buyer numerous times to show me what he meant by difference in markings as my listing show my cutlery's markings. I also asked the buyer to authenticate AT HERMES yet he did it with a third-party.

Unfortunately, I no longer have the purchase invoice and for some reason the buyer managed to provide eBay with a third-party authenticator to say they're counterfeits. Now we're the only ones to know that they are undoubtedly authentic because we've bought them personally in Paris.

eBay's policy means I couldn't even see the documentation that made eBay satisfied with the buyer's claim.

I've contacted Hermes customer service but they're not able to answer my question on whether markings on cutleries could have changed over time, and a fax to the 24 FSH store asking for a copy of my original purchase receipt in 2009 haven't yielded any results yet (I hope they read their faxes). I live in Australia, so it's difficult to get in touch with the 24 FSH store.

The authentication threads don't cover Hermes cutleries, so I haven't posted there, but with so many experts here, I thought I'd reach out too see if anyone could point me in the right direction on where to get help regarding this?

The monetary loss is one thing, but it's also a matter of principle for me to get to the bottom of this.

Thanks so much for reading this and I really appreciate any advice, if posting a public reply is not appropriate, please feel free to PM me directly if you need me to explain the situation in more detail.
You should ask the mod to move this to the eBay section of the forum. There are some very experienced members who can help you better.
 
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Mar 26, 2009
18,989
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Thanks xiangxiang. Mods, please move this to the eBay section if it's appropriate. Thank you so much.
Elliespurse is the current active mod, send her a PM with the request to move the thread. MODs don't necessarily read every post and may not see yours.
 
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BeenBurned

Coach, Dooney, Uggs
Authenticator
O.G.
Feb 25, 2007
46,894
14,634
East Coast, USA
You stated, "I've lost my money as well as my cutleries." How did the buyer get the refund as well as keeping the item?

You said you escalated but did you refuse the refund? Usually, if you check the box to "return for refund," ebay will require the buyer to return the item. It's usually only when sellers insist on "no refund" that ebay figures you don't want the item so they allow the buyer to keep it plus get the refund.

Are you sure the buyer already got the refund? Perhaps they're just freezing your money until you get the item back? Is that possible?

Is this the cutlery set that was sold on November 29?
Did the same buyer purchase both sets?
When did the buyer open the dispute?
Did you look at the buyer's history/feedback? Were there any other similar purchases?
Is the buyer also a seller? Have you checked the buyer's possible selling history?

If you'd like, you can PM me the buyer's ID and I'll poke around a bit as time allows.
 
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BeenBurned

Coach, Dooney, Uggs
Authenticator
O.G.
Feb 25, 2007
46,894
14,634
East Coast, USA

mudmud

The Orange Wiggle
O.G.
Oct 13, 2006
1,014
4
Hi BeenBurned, thanks for your reply and advice! I'll ask eBay to remove the follow-up comment based on that rule. Really appreciate it!

I've lost both because I unwittingly escalated the case myself. Originally I tried to organise the return because I'd rather have the item back than risking an escalation, but the buyer was really unhelpful. He refused to answer my questions about showing me photos with the "different markings" so I can see what he's talking about. Also, he insisted I get the return shipping label, and I said I couldn't because USPS won't let me order one (they don't accept non-US credit cards nor non-US Paypal, and I've got screenshots to prove that). So I've asked him to purchase one himself and I'll reimburse him. Then he stopped responding (in hindsight, he might just be waiting for the return to time out and escalate it). I had no choice but to escalate it - and I thought justice would prevail because eBay said he will need to provide proof that it is not authentic. But afterwards I've found out from him that he only used a third-party authenticator and not go to Hermes as I've suggested, so something is not right there.

Once escalated and eBay decide in their favour, which means eBay is "satisfied" they're not authentic, technically eBay will ask them to destroy the goods, so I won't ever get my item back!

Yes, that's the set (Nov 29)! He bought BOTH, and filed return for BOTH. I've escalated BOTH, and strangely eBay reversed one of them (the lower value one) and I've pressed eBay that if you could overturn one, you should do for the other for exactly the same reason. eBay refused, saying that they don't know why the first one was reversed!
Buyer's only got 2 feedbacks before our transaction, and both low-value items, so that's why I'm rather convinced he's a scammer.

The buyer lodged the dispute straight after Christmas. I think 27th December in the US as I woke up 28th December in Australia to find that email. What a Merry Christmas!

Thanks, I'll PM you the buyer's ID.
 

BeenBurned

Coach, Dooney, Uggs
Authenticator
O.G.
Feb 25, 2007
46,894
14,634
East Coast, USA
I believe if neither you nor she escalated the case, it would just time out, you'd keep the money and she'd keep the cutlery. (NOt sure though.)

Did she get refunds for both sets? Yikes, that's a lot of money.

Your escalating the case wouldn't have been what resulted in your losing the case. Had you responded with "return for refund," she wouldn't have received the refund without proving you received the return. I'm guessing you made a mistake of checking the box that said, "refund buyer" which gives the buyer a refund without returning.

You definitely should post that buyer's ID here and describe why she should be blocked.
https://forum.purseblog.com/threads/ebay-non-paying-bidder-list.165307/page-178#post-30968154

Stay on top with ebay if they don't remove that comment. The fact that she initially left positive feedback is good because if they remove the comment, no one will know she claimed anything.
 

northerndancer

What, me worry?
O.G.
Dec 30, 2007
5,071
685
The Cool Cool North
Once escalated and eBay decide in their favour, which means eBay is "satisfied" they're not authentic, technically eBay will ask them to destroy the goods, so I won't ever get my item back!
Ebay should not be asking buyers to destroy goods that have been deemed "fake". It has been proven time and again on here that authenticators can be wrong. It is one thing to force a return with a false claim of inauthenticity. It is quite another to be out the money and the goods because of this. It is a great scamming opportunity for dishonest buyers. I would persist in getting some kind of documentation to prove authenticity of these items and keep escalating at eBay. This is just not right. Good luck.
 
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mudmud

The Orange Wiggle
O.G.
Oct 13, 2006
1,014
4
Ebay should not be asking buyers to destroy goods that have been deemed "fake". It has been proven time and again on here that authenticators can be wrong. It is one thing to force a return with a false claim of inauthenticity. It is quite another to be out the money and the goods because of this. It is a great scamming opportunity for dishonest buyers. I would persist in getting some kind of documentation to prove authenticity of these items and keep escalating at eBay. This is just not right. Good luck.
Thanks northerndancer! Unfortunately my chances are dwindling. I've faxed Hermes FSH TWICE with no replies. Yesterday I emailed customer service to help me and no reply. I'm not asking for them to step in and help with anything. I'm just asking them to please provide me a replacement receipt of something I bought from their store. Being on the other side of the world (Australia) doesn't help, with time zone differences etc.

My only other avenue at the moment is that I've lodged a case with my local Consumer Commission and if they take up the case, then they may ask eBay to hand over the documentation. Then at the very least I know what happened behind the scenes.
 

northerndancer

What, me worry?
O.G.
Dec 30, 2007
5,071
685
The Cool Cool North
Thanks northerndancer! Unfortunately my chances are dwindling. I've faxed Hermes FSH TWICE with no replies. Yesterday I emailed customer service to help me and no reply. I'm not asking for them to step in and help with anything. I'm just asking them to please provide me a replacement receipt of something I bought from their store. Being on the other side of the world (Australia) doesn't help, with time zone differences etc.

My only other avenue at the moment is that I've lodged a case with my local Consumer Commission and if they take up the case, then they may ask eBay to hand over the documentation. Then at the very least I know what happened behind the scenes.
I don't know about cutlery but often photos are used for authentication. Is it possible that you could use the photos you took for your listing for an authentication. I agree that it is difficult not knowing what happened behind the scenes.
 

BeenBurned

Coach, Dooney, Uggs
Authenticator
O.G.
Feb 25, 2007
46,894
14,634
East Coast, USA
I've always considered it to be to patently unfair that in cases of disputes and authentications, both sides aren't shown the evidence submitted for resolution. How does the OP defend herself or prove that the "authenticator" saw the pictures of the actual items the buyer received? I know for a fact that there have been cases where pictures of fakes were submitted to professional for authentications when those pictures weren't the item the buyer received.