Fake MJ and risky refund

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  1. Hello to all,
    I just registered to ask for your kind help with a sticky situation.

    I just received a Marc Jacobs stam bag, which turned out to be a different one from the seller's pics and fake ( rounded R...). I paid 499€ for it.
    I emailed the seller about it and she went on about AAA+++ quality, but finally offered a refund.
    My problem is...I live in Italy. We have very strict laws and controls regarding counterfeit items and importing or exporting one is actually a PENAL crime (which I, unknowingly, already committed). Custom randomly opens packages and has experts on the spot authenticating suspect items. People don't actually go to jail for this,but there's the possibility of an heavy fine.
    So now I have to choose between loosing 500€ and let the scammer win or shipping the item and possibly loosing much more. Chances are they won't open the package, but if they do it's going to be a very long and expensive procedure for me.

    I wanted to know from you if there's a way to get a refund without having to send the item back.
    Thank you
  2. #2 Feb 15, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2010
    did you buy it from ebay?
  3. If you bought it from ebay and paid via paypal you can open a dispute i guess, if you escalate, paypal will take over, they may ask you to prove the item is fake and they may ask you to destroy the item. But this isn't always the case AND if the seller has agreed to a refund they might just ask you to return it ....
  4. yup...if it's fake...ebay might ask you for proof that its' fake by going to WWW.CAROLDIVA.COM and have her give you a letter stating that it's fake
  5. Thanks.
    Yes, it was from ebay. I would be completely fine with destroying it in case, although, how do you prove that?
    Paypal can ask me to return it? Wouldn't they be asking me to do something illegal?
  6. I don't understand why this is an issue. Sounds like you want a refund and keep the bag too. If the customs stops the package and says something, you have proof you bought the bag thinking it was authentic so you are in no way in control of the fact that you have a fake bag in your possession and that paypal and the seller has asked you to return it. They will get in trouble not you.

    Seriously sounds like you are trying to keep the bag and if you tell the seller you wont return it, that's what it's gonna sound like to her/him as well and that could jeopardize you're refund.

    The fact that you're in Italy should have nothing to do with it, counterfeit bags are illegal and finable in every country not just yours. I don't understand the big hoopla, just return the bag like she asked and you'll get your refund.
  7. Allowing you to keep the bag is also illegal. Saying that you will destroy it, is not exactly the lawful thing to do because they have no proof that you did.

    I'll say it again, never in the history of buyer's receiving counterfeit bags has there been someone so intent on not sending the item back. You have all the proof necessary to prove you obtained this bag through no fault of your own and was asked by the seller/paypal to send the item back as a condition of your refund.
  8. Once paypal makes the decision and if they tell you to send it back, put that documentation into the bag. on the customs form, declare it as a return. if customs does go into it, then they'll see that you're returning the bag, and that there is a dispute telling you to return it.

    if it does get destroyed, customs will be able to provide documentation of this and you can submit that to paypal. they'll most likely refund you at that point, even without the seller receiving it.
  9. Thank you! This is actually quite useful. The 50$ I'll loose getting the bag declared as a fake seem the smaller loss.

    pecandanish, I have no intention of keeping the bag, I wouldn't know what to do with it. Yes, the fact I live in Italy does make a difference (law student here). While counterfeits are illegal everywhere, because of regulation protecting the "made in Italy" importing and exporting counterfeit items, even for personal use, is a penal crime here. People have actually gone through trials, paid very heavy fines and have been left with a record for this.
    My concern is not so much for keeping an obviously fake bag I paid the price of a real bag for, but much more for avoiding being sued and having to call a lawyer.
  10. You seem to be missing the obvious point here.
    You didn't "import a counterfeit bag for personal use". You imported a counterfeit bag with the belief it was authentic and as part of your refund requirements, you were ordered to send the bag back.

  11. Yes, but exporting the bag outside the E.U. remains a crime, whatever your reason for doing so. It's the law here. The only possibility, seems to be what someone here has suggested, to add paypal's ordinance to return it in the package.
    For example, if you get stuck with a fake bill, you're obliged to report it, obviously in the wrong if you use it, but nobody is going to refund you when you bring the fake to a bank. Stuck with a fake? too bad for you. Don't expect it to make sense, have you seen our prime minister?

    With these premises, I would obviously win in court, yes, but I'd rather NOT end up in court because I'm returning a bloody bag.
  12. I would ask you to post even one case where someone bought a counterfeit item off ebay unknowingly and got charged and taken to court by the Federal government in Italy. Just 1 case.

    It's surprising that a law student doesn't realize the government doesn't sue civilians, they charge them and if that civilian isn't able to defend their position, then the civilian pays a fine. LVMH might sue someone, but not over 1 bag they mistakenly bought off ebay.

    Everyone throws "They'll sue you" around like it's nothing. Small claims court litigation takes forever and is expensive with very little return and there is nothing preventing you from skimping on paying the judgment either unless they want to take you to court again...which they wont to begin with.
  13. It happens. I told you, the law is different. And so are the perceived priorities, in this country...
    Many people have received "orders to appear" (I don't know how to translate it) before a judge, after they had their packages stopped and inspected by customs.
    These laws are quite new, so I don't know about sentencing, I'm pretty sure nobody will go to jail, aside from the people making a profit from it, but a big number of people had to hire a lawyer, at least.

    Anyways, I think adding all the papers that declare the item counterfeit and order me to return it may actually be the solution. Thanks to the people who helped.
  14. #14 Feb 15, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2010
    So in other words, you can't provide 1 case where the government has sued someone for unknowingly receiving a fake bag from ebay and sending it back.

    But apparently there were "tons and tons" of times you recollect it has happened, therefore you feel you should be able to keep something that isn't yours AND receive a full refund.

    I'm not sure who is running the scam, the seller or the person who wants both their money back and the bag the seller has reasonably asked that you return as part of your refund condition.

    How do we even know the bag in question is fake? We're just going by your word, you haven't had the bag authenticated, nor have you posted the link to the bag. The only thing you've made perfectly clear is that you want both your money back and to keep this bag you apparently hate so much because apparently the Italian government sues it's civilians on a regular basis for unknowingly buying replicas off ebay. You know this because you're a law student, yet miraculously you are unable to post a link to one such occurrence in the history of the Italian legal system.

    For a law student you don't seem that thorough before making accusations and statements with no proof. However you are adamant you should be able to be refunded and keep someone else's property and joining TPF to find ways in which you can find a loophole to keep something that isn't yours while finding a way to get your money back.

    Sounds like someone is up to no good, and I'm not so sure it's the seller.
  15. That's not how the law works in any country. First you must be charged with something long before you ever get an "order to appear" which would be months if not years later. Murder trials don't even move that fast. Customs cannot charge people with anything, it's a legal matter and people are handed subpoenas by their local police.

    I'm calling a gigantic load of BS here, and i hope other tpf's don't continue to help someone scam a seller out of their product and their money.