Covid Vaccine Symptoms?

Notorious Pink

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... this is all correct, but I was not arguing that there is a constitutional right to drive. I was saying that whether through local, state or federal legislature, society has enacted laws to protect itself. In the example I gave it was from drivers without a driving license, but it could also have been from doctors without a medical degree or from electricians without a diploma.
I am not advocating for a law to force people to get vaccinated. I am against forcing anything on anyone.
However, I am advocating for having laws that protect society from unvaccinated people, in the same way that we protect society from drivers without a driving license. Note- these laws do not exist yet, but I would support them.

And if anyone wants to take the analogy one step further: having a driver's license does not guarantee people will not have accidents, but it reduces that risk. Protecting society is a complicated matter. It is not all or nothing. If we are able to reduce the number of accidents, or the number of people that get COVID - we have achieved our goal.
I absolutely understand your point, but unfortunately it's kind of a strawman argument (not on purpose) - while the effect of many laws may be to protect the citizenry, "protection" is Constitutionally a federal concern only when it comes to external threats, e.g., from other countries. Domestically, the purpose of these laws is to regulate, and, as much as possible, is left to the states to determine (I feel cynical adding this, but it's worth noting that speed limits, which differ by state, are at least in part determined by actuaries).

There is no legal difference between forcing an individual to take an affirmative action (such as vaccinate) and enforcing a consequence for not doing so. Not to get into the sordid legal history of requiring a medical procedure "for the public good" (see Buck v Bell [1927], which was never overturned but has been absolutely invalidated due to subsequent case law), but again, this would fail under current case law and Article 14 of the Constitution (see the 2020 Supreme Court decision in Roman Catholic Diocese of Brooklyn, New York v. Andrew M. Cuomo). The closest facts we have here are in the 115-year old case Jacobson v. Massachusetts (which, full disclosure, resulted in a $5 fine for failure to vaccinate against smallpox, and which Buck v. Bell was based on, but even in the 2020 case Justice Gorsuch stated that “Jacobson hardly supports cutting the Constitution loose during a pandemic.”). However, the Courts currently use different methods and priorities for legal analysis, and again as with Buck, subsequent case law requires a different outcome: the government is not in a regulatory position with regard to health care, it's a public policy concern. Further, with regards to AIDS/HIV, there is no concomitant requirement to make one's medical status known, and states such as California and Illinois (those pesky states again!) have decriminalized knowingly spreading the disease to uninfected partners. In the rare instances where vaccinations are required (as in schools), states will allow exemptions, including for both medical reasons and due to personal choice.

Anyway, I know this is waaaaaay off topic, and I'm probably being a huge PITA to even bring this up, but I do see many sides to this matter and I feel that more information is always better. I am not trying to create any conflict, just provide a US legal perspective, again, regardless of my own feelings on the matter.

To get back on topic my son is fine now, thank goodness.
 
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Jan 29, 2010
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There has been a lot of conversation back and forth and (mea culpa) I haven't read all the posts, so this may have been answered already. After reading about your anxiety and that anxiety fueling your vaccination concerns, have you had an indepth conversation with your primary care provider or your mental health professional (if you have one)? If not, PLEASE do! There's just way too much conflicting information on the internet and even possibly from people you know. Go to someone that can provide you sound medical advice. I'm allergic to basically everything. If there's a side effect for any meds, I'll get it. So before I had my vaccine (Moderna 2/26 & 3/26), I spoke to my PCP at length. She assured me I would be fine to take the vaccine, so I did and I was perfectly fine. I did get a mild case of "COVID Arm" after the first vaccination and a sore arm after the second, but that was it. And to be honest, I too was petrified to get the vaccination but the consequences of not getting it were unthinkable.

Hope that helps.

Edit note: You posted my suggestion as I was typing this. I obviously agree that you should follow up on getting some counseling or meds as appropriate. You shouldn't have to live in fear like this. :heart: :heart:

Im not allergic to as much as you sound like you are so maybe i would be ok?
Thank you i agree with you i 100% need to see a mental health proffesional about all of this.
The conflicting information online just doesnt help at all for me i go from i want the vaccine to never having it .
I would also be like this if it were any other vaccine too its not just because its this one. Ive had all my childhood vaccines etc and im not an anti vaxxer all my children have had all their previous vaccines. Its just in more recent years ive developed this way of thinking
 

Prada Psycho

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Im not allergic to as much as you sound like you are so maybe i would be ok?
Thank you i agree with you i 100% need to see a mental health proffesional about all of this.
The conflicting information online just doesnt help at all for me i go from i want the vaccine to never having it .
I would also be like this if it were any other vaccine too its not just because its this one. Ive had all my childhood vaccines etc and im not an anti vaxxer all my children have had all their previous vaccines. Its just in more recent years ive developed this way of thinking
Please do speak to someone. In 1988, I was going through a nasty divorce, leading to bankruptcy. I was also working full time with a longish commute and had our 18 month old child to care for. On top of that, I was in a post-graduate program for my profession on the other side of the state. I was effectively out of my mind and convinced myself that my ex would try to fight me for custody of our daughter. It wasn't based in fact: he was an irresponsible alcoholic who could barely take care of himself (hence the divorce). Still, I was convinced he would try to fight for her.

The minister who had married us was also a mental health counselor. I took off work and drove to his office 3 hours away. I spilled my story and kept hysterically saying "I have to put my daughter first, I have to put my daughter first!" He shut me down and said this to me: "No. You do NOT put your child first!" I was stunned. This man was a minister and he was telling not to put my daughter first??? So, he continues: "You don't put your child first. You MUST put yourself first and take care of yourself first. Otherwise you are of no use to anyone in your life."

Those words became my life's mantra because he was 150% right. You have children, too. If you take care of yourself (especially re: your anxiety), you'll be in a better place for everyone in your life. It's been true for me for 33 years. :heart: :heart: :heart:


Apologies for going WAY off topic here, but hoping to help.
 

Roe

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after death is there a bag heaven?
I will admit, I was on the fence about getting Co-vid vaccinated. I have never even got a flu shot. The divisive opinions of professionals as well as the public really are exhausting. With this being said, I have had loved ones get ill from vaccines but unfortunately, I also know loved ones that have been hospitalized and are currently hospitalized. This was what made me decide to get the vaccine. With this being said:

I think I had covid late 2019

Just got my 1st Moderna vaccine shot on 9/8/21; I felt a soreness in my arm and slight fatigue throughout the day. Next day I was fine.
Scheduled for my next shot on 10/6/21. Will update then.

Be safe guys. :heart:
 
May 16, 2020
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I think this is part my fault as im not explaining myself properly
I am one of those who does refuse to go out because of lightning with those statistics. I have extreme phobias and panic disorder and agoraphobia. I do over worry. Im just here trying to find answers or something im just terrified of everything. I was like this before covid too.
Youre right though most people dont avoid outside based on what you said thats true.
The problem with me is i instantly panic over the worst and my best friend having what she had sort of validated my fears .
Im genuinely just scared.
Im sorry im not trying to claim my thoughts are facts. The only things that i can say are facts is what people i personally know have gone through .
I wish i wasnt so afraid. I dont want to do the wrong thing .
I also have on my medical notes i had an adverse reaction to previous immunisations which makes me scared of having it too
Have not read the whole thread but i am so sorry about your terrible fears.
Please please talk to a professional.
 

Swanky

Admin
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Hi friends!
We're not all going to agree on this unfortunately, so can we try and be a little kinder in our responses, and use the Ignore User feature for those who you think are too extreme and might be triggering some of the combative responses?
We'd rather tPF be a place of respite, not a place that raises your blood pressure :flowers:
Let's discuss the topic at hand, Covid vaccine symptoms, this may help keep this discussion friendlier :cutesy:
It's not just you. I don't participate in these threads much really and reading them stresses me lol
I can FEEL the tension from a lot of different perspectives, just thought a fair warning or request was due!
:heart:
 
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foosy

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I absolutely understand your point, but unfortunately it's kind of a strawman argument (not on purpose) - while the effect of many laws may be to protect the citizenry, "protection" is Constitutionally a federal concern only when it comes to external threats, e.g., from other countries. Domestically, the purpose of these laws is to regulate, and, as much as possible, is left to the states to determine (I feel cynical adding this, but it's worth noting that speed limits, which differ by state, are at least in part determined by actuaries).

There is no legal difference between forcing an individual to take an affirmative action (such as vaccinate) and enforcing a consequence for not doing so. Not to get into the sordid legal history of requiring a medical procedure "for the public good" (see Buck v Bell [1927], which was never overturned but has been absolutely invalidated due to subsequent case law), but again, this would fail under current case law and Article 14 of the Constitution (see the 2020 Supreme Court decision in Roman Catholic Diocese of Brooklyn, New York v. Andrew M. Cuomo). The closest facts we have here are in the 115-year old case Jacobson v. Massachusetts (which, full disclosure, resulted in a $5 fine for failure to vaccinate against smallpox, and which Buck v. Bell was based on, but even in the 2020 case Justice Gorsuch stated that “Jacobson hardly supports cutting the Constitution loose during a pandemic.”). However, the Courts currently use different methods and priorities for legal analysis, and again as with Buck, subsequent case law requires a different outcome: the government is not in a regulatory position with regard to health care, it's a public policy concern. Further, with regards to AIDS/HIV, there is no concomitant requirement to make one's medical status known, and states such as California and Illinois (those pesky states again!) have decriminalized knowingly spreading the disease to uninfected partners. In the rare instances where vaccinations are required (as in schools), states will allow exemptions, including for both medical reasons and due to personal choice.

Anyway, I know this is waaaaaay off topic, and I'm probably being a huge PITA to even bring this up, but I do see many sides to this matter and I feel that more information is always better. I am not trying to create any conflict, just provide a US legal perspective, again, regardless of my own feelings on the matter.

To get back on topic my son is fine now, thank goodness.
SO I must say that while hugely off topic - this is fascinating.
It is hard for me to see how there would not be any difference between forcing individuals to take an affirmative action and enforcing a consequence. We do not force people to stay at home so that they do not rob banks, but we do enforce consequences for robbing a bank. I do not care if they call it laws, ordinances or regulations, but protection of society is very important. If we did not have protection, there would be a chaos.
Your initial examples talk about mandating vaccinations. Obviously, we both agree that this is not what we should do and also that it would be difficult to enact and implement. We are talking about people that are not vaccinated and the question that I think you are asking is: is it OK to take their liberties because they refuse to be vaccinated. My argument is that we are not taking their liberties. If for example we decide to prohibit unvaccinated people from using public transportation, then we are not denying them access to other places. They can use private transportation to get there, and that would not infringe on their freedom of movement.

As to access to events, that becomes more complicated, but if thinking out of the box we can find solutions for this. For example say there is a concert and we want to protect people at the venue. Instead of opening the concert only to vaccinated people, we could require a negative result from a quick locally administered COVID antigen test, and stipulate that vaccinated people (showing a vaccination card) are exempt from the test. We could also make the individual pay for the test.

It is important to explain that those measures are not punishments. Rather we are making it easier for those that have made the effort to protect themselves and their peers. You can find some similarities in obtaining a "global entry card". No one is forcing anyone to have their fingerprints taken and to go through a long interview, but for those that do, entry in the USA is much quicker. The others can still enter- they will just have to stand in a longer line.

As a general point of view, I think we should be looking at ways to reward vaccinated people. People respond better to praise and awards than to punishments.
 
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Notorious Pink

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SO I must say that while hugely off topic - this is fascinating.
It is hard for me to see how there would not be any difference between forcing individuals to take an affirmative action and enforcing a consequence. We do not force people to stay at home so that they do not rob banks, but we do enforce consequences for robbing a bank. I do not care if they call it laws, ordinances or regulations, but protection of society is very important. If we did not have protection, there would be a chaos.
Your initial examples talk about mandating vaccinations. Obviously, we both agree that this is not what we should do and also that it would be difficult to enact and implement. We are talking about people that are not vaccinated and the question that I think you are asking is: is it OK to take their liberties because they refuse to be vaccinated. My argument is that we are not taking their liberties. If for example we decide to prohibit unvaccinated people from using public transportation, then we are not denying them access to other places. They can use private transportation to get there, and that would not infringe on their freedom of movement.

As to access to events, that becomes more complicated, but if thinking out of the box we can find solutions for this. For example say there is a concert and we want to protect people at the venue. Instead of opening the concert only to vaccinated people, we could require a negative result from a quick locally administered COVID antigen test, and stipulate that vaccinated people (showing a vaccination card) are exempt from the test. We could also make the individual pay for the test.

It is important to explain that those measures are not punishments. Rather we are making it easier for those that have made the effort to protect themselves and their peers. You can find some similarities in obtaining a "global entry card". No one is forcing anyone to have their fingerprints taken and to go through a long interview, but for those that do, entry in the USA is much quicker. The others can still enter- they will just have to stand in a longer line.

As a general point of view, I think we should be looking at ways to reward vaccinated people. People respond better to praise and awards than to punishments.
Thank you for taking this in the spirit it was intended, and being willing to explore this with me. :hugs:

It can be confusing to understand that legally there is no distinction between between forcing individuals to take an affirmative action and enforcing a consequence for failing to do so - because the effect is the same (they always told us that going to law school was not about learning law, but how to think like a lawyer :facepalm:) I think a lot of confusion is because in our conversations we use words that have legal definitions, but we may not know what they are. What is a liberty? what rights are inviolable? How has our courts’ understanding of our rights evolved?

I included the old jurisprudence because the outcome was extreme - forced sterilization (this was essentially eugenics) - but I had to note that those decisions are no longer good law due to current trends in legal analysis. It will be interesting to see how this plays out in real time.

I think when it comes down to it, though, the most important thing to remember is that our rights are not given by the state. The Constitution makes clear that we have our rights just by our humanity, and that the laws are are to guide the government, and that our enumerated rights are to infringed upon as minimally as possible (and yes, you can yell “fire” in a crowded theater).
 

foosy

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Thank you for taking this in the spirit it was intended, and being willing to explore this with me. :hugs:

It can be confusing to understand that legally there is no distinction between between forcing individuals to take an affirmative action and enforcing a consequence for failing to do so - because the effect is the same (they always told us that going to law school was not about learning law, but how to think like a lawyer :facepalm:) I think a lot of confusion is because in our conversations we use words that have legal definitions, but we may not know what they are. What is a liberty? what rights are inviolable? How has our courts’ understanding of our rights evolved?

I included the old jurisprudence because the outcome was extreme - forced sterilization (this was essentially eugenics) - but I had to note that those decisions are no longer good law due to current trends in legal analysis. It will be interesting to see how this plays out in real time.

I think when it comes down to it, though, the most important thing to remember is that our rights are not given by the state. The Constitution makes clear that we have our rights just by our humanity, and that the laws are are to guide the government, and that our enumerated rights are to infringed upon as minimally as possible (and yes, you can yell “fire” in a crowded theater).
Would not be wise of me to argue with a lawyer as this is not my field of experience. I tend to be stronger in common sense - but even that gets challenged many times...

The point which I think is missed, is that all people have liberties, but when someone's liberty causes someone else to lose their liberty then law should be enacted. My liberty to breath fresh air that is not contaminated is being challenged. My health safety and my well being are being compromised by people who refuse to be vaccinated and refuse to wear masks. My liberty to travel safely is in jeopardy. And not just mine - but a large percentage of the population. And even so, I refuse to impose vaccinations - but I want to reduce the risk for everyone, and especially the vulnerable ones, so and this is only my opinion, I think laws or regulations should be enacted.

It is up to government to make it happen. Legal counselors like yourself can help with the terminology, the precedence, and the implications. This as I am sure you know is exactly why laws exist: They protect our general safety, and ensure our rights as citizens against abuses by other people, by organizations, and by the government itself. Because, if there were no laws we would be in a state of disorder.
 

hermes_lemming

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SO I must say that while hugely off topic - this is fascinating.
It is hard for me to see how there would not be any difference between forcing individuals to take an affirmative action and enforcing a consequence. We do not force people to stay at home so that they do not rob banks, but we do enforce consequences for robbing a bank. I do not care if they call it laws, ordinances or regulations, but protection of society is very important. If we did not have protection, there would be a chaos.
Your initial examples talk about mandating vaccinations. Obviously, we both agree that this is not what we should do and also that it would be difficult to enact and implement. We are talking about people that are not vaccinated and the question that I think you are asking is: is it OK to take their liberties because they refuse to be vaccinated. My argument is that we are not taking their liberties. If for example we decide to prohibit unvaccinated people from using public transportation, then we are not denying them access to other places. They can use private transportation to get there, and that would not infringe on their freedom of movement.

As to access to events, that becomes more complicated, but if thinking out of the box we can find solutions for this. For example say there is a concert and we want to protect people at the venue. Instead of opening the concert only to vaccinated people, we could require a negative result from a quick locally administered COVID antigen test, and stipulate that vaccinated people (showing a vaccination card) are exempt from the test. We could also make the individual pay for the test.

It is important to explain that those measures are not punishments. Rather we are making it easier for those that have made the effort to protect themselves and their peers. You can find some similarities in obtaining a "global entry card". No one is forcing anyone to have their fingerprints taken and to go through a long interview, but for those that do, entry in the USA is much quicker. The others can still enter- they will just have to stand in a longer line.

As a general point of view, I think we should be looking at ways to reward vaccinated people. People respond better to praise and awards than to punishments.
There are awards. Initially Krispy Kreme offered free donuts for the entire year, then another burger chain offered free fries etc. Then states started to offer a lot of money (to me at least) via lottery. Uber offered free rides to the vaccinations. Did I mention the free money?
 

le_junkie

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Jan 4, 2006
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Haven’t had Covid.

Had the Pfizer vaccine 2 months ago.

1st: Mild fever first night, mild headache day 2 and sore arm until the 3rd day

2nd: mild headache first night, sore arm until the 3rd day

I also got the flu shot for winter. I will get any booster shot offered later on. Before lockdown, I work with the public, lotsa elderly people and my step-dad died of Covid last December so it’s personal for me. I want to do my part to keep the community safe.
 
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