illegals immigrants sue Arizona rancher

[Jahpson]

Originally Posted by sweetneet

Any American who complains about illegal immigrants [/b](stealing jobs, trespassing, littering, etc) should really be blaming the millions of other Americans who give illegals jobs in the first place, because that is the reason they are here. When you say "we are supporting their economy", you are totally right...and for that you can thank all those Americans who hire undocumented nannies and landscape workers, all those American businesses who hire undocumented farm workers, factory workers, etc. I can see how people are frustrated about this issue, but with this issue it bugs me to no end when people criminalize human beings for simply wanting to put food on the table and feed their children..yet they fail to see where the origin of the problem actually lies. I'm not pulling the "sympathy" card, i'll pulling the "reality" card. The reason we have illegal immigrants here is because many Americans and American businesses want cheap labor. They want to be pay someone under the table and not deal with taxes. They want to someone to work long hours for less than minimum wage. They could care less if the money being made is all going back to Mexico and there are consequently less jobs for other American citizens..these people only care about their bottom line. Yet then these same people turn around and point fingers at illegal immigrants for crowding schools, tresspassing, using our resources... I imagine that people decide to cross the border because they typically have a neighbor/sister/cousin/friend who has already done so, has found a job and is sending tons of $$ back to Mexico. They see that and they then decide to do the same because it sounds like the best way to make $$ to support their starving family. Well, obviously there were no jobs for them here then people wouldn't cross the border in the first place...simple as that. Only if there were no jobs left in US for them, then Mexican govt may start a welfare system for the poor like you described..but right now there's no reason because many Americans are more than willing to employ undocumented workers..so why should they bother. Anyway, I too can sympathize with the rancher because it must be annoying as h*ll to have people constantly trespassing your property and having the US government not doing much about it. However I do not understand how all the anger about this situation is typically aimed only at poverty-stricken people who merely want to feed their children. Why is no one ever blaming the millions of American folks who are the reason why these people are here in the first place?

whew!

I cant help but agree with you, you make excellent points!

[miss alice]

Originally Posted by Jahpson

whew! I cant help but agree with you, you make excellent points!

DITTO! sweetneet, I also agree with your points in that post. It is supply and demand! There is demand in USA, hence the supply.

What you said also reminded me of what happened to my mom couple years ago. It was summer and she wanted to pay my brother (who was in High school) to mow the lawn (our lawn was pretty big..so I am not saying its easy work.) But he didnt want to! He rather go to the beach w/ friends..lol..my mom then asked my brother to ask his classmates to see if anyone wanted to earn some extra money for the summer and not one kid wanted!! LOL..in the end, my mom hired a gardening company, and guess who the company hired to mow our lawns?

moral of the story? maybe my brother is too spoiled..lol...

[sweetneet]

Originally Posted by miss alice

My comment was stating the law. I didn't make it up, and I am not arguing either side. In addition, it is not a deadly force on "property." That is a misstatement of the law and overly broad. Deadly force is not permissible say...in your barn out in the back, even if it is your "property." The law restricts using deadly force to your dwelling, namely, your home, where you sleep, eat, etc. That is your "castle" and if it is invaded, or about to be invaded w/o your consent (unlawfully) entry, then using deadly force to defend is justified. That is why this case is interesting..b/c exactly where the trespass occurred has significance..and I am interested to see the court's ruling.

oic , sorry for the confusion.. i had assumed "property" when you said "home", i didn't realize you were referring to the actual house,not acres of land surrounding it, etc. sorry!

and yeah i too am curious to see the ruling. i don't know if in this case they actually went into his house or not...

[frostee]

This guy was protecting his home and property where it seems trespassing has gone on for YEARS AND YEARS!

Can you imagine living in your home and having this happen day after day year after year?

You don't want someone pointing a gun at you? Don't trespass..period.


To try and sue is a total joke imo.



I don't mind people coming here from other countries but they need to do it legally.

[bisousx]

Originally Posted by DiorDeVille

I believe he was a retired sheriff, correct? So he was trained in law enforcement. Keep in mind, the illegal immigrants are not being forced to enter America. They - as mentally sound adults - choose to sneak over the border knowing full well that it is not legal. Some of them bring their children. And before anyone plays the sympathy card about seeking a better life, keep in mind that the second highest source of income in Mexico - after sales of gas and oil - is from funds earned in the U.S. and sent home. We are supporting their economy.

ITA. There is a process that every immigrant must go through in order to become naturalized or citizens, and it kind of appalls me how many people ignore it or let their visa's expire. Even if you don't want to do go through the process the long way, the system is easy to worm around, and even then people don't bother to get their greencards

[tadpolenyc]

Originally Posted by sweetneet

Any American who complains about illegal immigrants [/b](stealing jobs, trespassing, littering, etc) should really be blaming the millions of other Americans who give illegals jobs in the first place, because that is the reason they are here. When you say "we are supporting their economy", you are totally right...and for that you can thank all those Americans who hire undocumented nannies and landscape workers, all those American businesses who hire undocumented farm workers, factory workers, etc. I can see how people are frustrated about this issue, but with this issue it bugs me to no end when people criminalize human beings for simply wanting to put food on the table and feed their children..yet they fail to see where the origin of the problem actually lies. I'm not pulling the "sympathy" card, i'll pulling the "reality" card. The reason we have illegal immigrants here is because many Americans and American businesses want cheap labor. They want to be pay someone under the table and not deal with taxes. They want to someone to work long hours for less than minimum wage. They could care less if the money being made is all going back to Mexico and there are consequently less jobs for other American citizens..these people only care about their bottom line. Yet then these same people turn around and point fingers at illegal immigrants for crowding schools, tresspassing, using our resources... I imagine that people decide to cross the border because they typically have a neighbor/sister/cousin/friend who has already done so, has found a job and is sending tons of $$ back to Mexico. They see that and they then decide to do the same because it sounds like the best way to make $$ to support their starving family. Well, obviously there were no jobs for them here then people wouldn't cross the border in the first place...simple as that. Only if there were no jobs left in US for them, then Mexican govt may start a welfare system for the poor like you described..but right now there's no reason because many Americans are more than willing to employ undocumented workers..so why should they bother. Anyway, I too can sympathize with the rancher because it must be annoying as h*ll to have people constantly trespassing your property and having the US government not doing much about it. However I do not understand how all the anger about this situation is typically aimed only at poverty-stricken people who merely want to feed their children. Why is no one ever blaming the millions of American folks who are the reason why these people are here in the first place?

this is one of the most brilliant posts i've ever read on tpf. thank you!

[Classic Chic]

Originally Posted by LV-PRADAfanatic

i hope the rancher win

ITA! Imagine the risk of his family member have in their own land? what if a child of his witness the trans passing or drug dealing? would that child be safe or harmed? IMO, the system had failed to protect the rancher and his family, which leaving him with no choice but today's action.

[DiorDeVille]

Originally Posted by sweetneet

Any American who complains about illegal immigrants [/b](stealing jobs, trespassing, littering, etc) should really be blaming the millions of other Americans who give illegals jobs in the first place, because that is the reason they are here. When you say "we are supporting their economy", you are totally right...and for that you can thank all those Americans who hire undocumented nannies and landscape workers, all those American businesses who hire undocumented farm workers, factory workers, etc. I can see how people are frustrated about this issue, but with this issue it bugs me to no end when people criminalize human beings for simply wanting to put food on the table and feed their children..yet they fail to see where the origin of the problem actually lies. I'm not pulling the "sympathy" card, i'll pulling the "reality" card. The reason we have illegal immigrants here is because many Americans and American businesses want cheap labor. They want to be pay someone under the table and not deal with taxes. They want to someone to work long hours for less than minimum wage. They could care less if the money being made is all going back to Mexico and there are consequently less jobs for other American citizens..these people only care about their bottom line. Yet then these same people turn around and point fingers at illegal immigrants for crowding schools, tresspassing, using our resources... I imagine that people decide to cross the border because they typically have a neighbor/sister/cousin/friend who has already done so, has found a job and is sending tons of $$ back to Mexico. They see that and they then decide to do the same because it sounds like the best way to make $$ to support their starving family. Well, obviously there were no jobs for them here then people wouldn't cross the border in the first place...simple as that. Only if there were no jobs left in US for them, then Mexican govt may start a welfare system for the poor like you described..but right now there's no reason because many Americans are more than willing to employ undocumented workers..so why should they bother. Anyway, I too can sympathize with the rancher because it must be annoying as h*ll to have people constantly trespassing your property and having the US government not doing much about it. However I do not understand how all the anger about this situation is typically aimed only at poverty-stricken people who merely want to feed their children. Why is no one ever blaming the millions of American folks who are the reason why these people are here in the first place?

Well, because those Americans are feeding the starving children!

I do feel pretty strongly about this, simply because I started my career in a small town that's half Hispanic, and about half of that population was here illegally. So there's a face - or a lot of them - on this issue for me. Some were good people who loved their families, some were in police blotters for murder or worse, and there's a lot ofdiversity there that's lost in these blanket statements. I respect your arguments, but have a couple of devil's advocate points to make:

First, I don't think the U.S. can be held responsible for the Mexican government's self-serving attitude and poor decisions. Certainly we can't complain about our government's activity in the Middle Eastern countries while complaining about our lack of governmental activity in regard to Mexico's government. We're either responsible for other nation's government's shortcomings (that affect us) or we're not. Especially after former Mexican President Fox actively opposed any U.S. actions to tighten our southern borders. Not only is the Mexican government ignoring the problem, they're encouraging it.

You are right, though. As our economy declines, other countries surrounding Mexico are noticing an increase in the number of illegal immigrants to their country, while our rates declined in 2008 (although some sources attributed this to Bush's increased border security, just to quote more than one view). The Pew Hispanic Center has some great reports online that really cover this topic too.

Employers: I can name one business off-hand just in my city that is run by immigrants from Mexico, some here legally,that almost exclusively hires illegal immigrants. It's reportedly not even close to being the only one. And our city doesn't have a huge hispanic population. So it's not all U.S. citizens hiring them.

My best friend is an attorney for a charity, which deals primarily with immigrants who are here illegally. They live a horribly stressful life here, always dodging deportment, and she's always asking them, "Why do you not go home? Wouldn't your life there be so much happier?" The answer is usually yes, but they want more money. The only reasons she's received from them, ever, is money and/or a free high school education for their kids (which I empathize with, even though I don't support it). They could make enough in Mexico to live, but they wouldn't have as much income.

Plus, imagine - if I was getting $500 a month in disability in the states, but if I could sneak into Canada illegally (through, say, a desert that might kill me, etc), make $2,000 a month, and sneak back, would I do it? I hope not, I like to think I'm a bit more honest than that. And some Mexican citizens are the same way - they went through legal channels to get the right to "feed their starving children" in the U.S.

But, if I did decide to sneak into Canada at night, against the law, over a private citizen's property, and in the process that private citizen found me, and held me at gunpoint while I waited for their law enforcement officers to come pick me up, and drop me off back in America, I wouldn't be offended at their lack of hospitality! I'd feel lucky I got off easily.

And they're not really "taking our jobs" IMO because - have you been in a meat packing plant? I have - it's gruesome stinky work, and where I was, mostly done by Mexican immigrants, legal and not. I don't know many Americans who would want that job! Frequently, its just an issue of citizens of two countries that are comfortable with illegal activities, finding and sustaining a symbiotic relationship with each other. Unfortunately, this rancher got caught in the middle of that.

Certainly, prices would likely rise on several items if we really enforced border controls to the south. And the profits of these employers who hired illegals would - rightfully - decline. But the costs of deportation, border controls, legal processes for cases like this would all decline as well.

Illegal immigrants are people, good and bad, making a bad choice, for reasons that are both good and bad. I don't have to think for them or remove the negative consequences of their bad choice. We just enforce one single, very reasonable law - don't enter our country illegally. The rest is up to them. If they are unhappy with Mexico's provisions for them, they could also lobby their own government - or bribe it or start a revolution, etc., like other nations before them have done. Put that national pride to good use, I say.

They're not children or mentally challenged, which is how some of these "big bad American government/employer/border patrol/citizen" arguments seem to paint them, at least in my view. That approach is also insulting to the remaining 70 percent of immigrants - hispanic or not - who spend years trying to enter the country legally. It also inspires racist reactions to very good people of hispanic descent or appearance who were born here and have no dog in the immigration fight whatsoever.

Illegal immigrants aren't starving. They are poor and "chasing the dream" in their own way. It's just that their dream is funded by activities which are illegal.

I don't get to break the law to make more money. Neither do you. And, although some will disgree with me, neither do they.

[lilian]

Originally Posted by miss alice

I am also unsure as to what I think of this issue but I do think this suit brings forth a important questions, esp in realms of what level of force is appropriate. I think this case is interesting and is certainly something we never learned about in our property class..no? hehe..no case quite like this yet!

Thanks for your sweet comments. I'm really interested in this stuff, and I wish this was the kind of stuff we learned about in property. Instead I spent four months trying (unsuccessfully) to figure out wth the rule against perpetuities meant and how to apply it. Law school just takes the fun out of everything!

[lilian]

Originally Posted by DiorDeVille

I believe he was a retired sheriff, correct? So he was trained in law enforcement.

I read that actually, but it doesn't really make a difference to me. If you allow one person to do something, you allow everyone else to do it as well. For me, I think it's kind of key that this guy was not acting in his capacity as a law enforcement officer.

Originally Posted by DiorDeVille

Well, because those Americans are feeding the starving children! I do feel pretty strongly about this, simply because I started my career in a small town that's half Hispanic, and about half of that population was here illegally. So there's a face - or a lot of them - on this issue for me. Some were good people who loved their families, some were in police blotters for murder or worse, and there's a lot ofdiversity there that's lost in these blanket statements. I respect your arguments, but have a couple of devil's advocate points to make: First, I don't think the U.S. can be held responsible for the Mexican government's self-serving attitude and poor decisions. Certainly we can't complain about our government's activity in the Middle Eastern countries while complaining about our lack of governmental activity in regard to Mexico's government. We're either responsible for other nation's government's shortcomings (that affect us) or we're not. Especially after former Mexican President Fox actively opposed any U.S. actions to tighten our southern borders. Not only is the Mexican government ignoring the problem, they're encouraging it. You are right, though. As our economy declines, other countries surrounding Mexico are noticing an increase in the number of illegal immigrants to their country, while our rates declined in 2008 (although some sources attributed this to Bush's increased border security, just to quote more than one view). The Pew Hispanic Center has some great reports online that really cover this topic too. Employers: I can name one business off-hand just in my city that is run by immigrants from Mexico, some here legally,that almost exclusively hires illegal immigrants. It's reportedly not even close to being the only one. And our city doesn't have a huge hispanic population. So it's not all U.S. citizens hiring them. My best friend is an attorney for a charity, which deals primarily with immigrants who are here illegally. They live a horribly stressful life here, always dodging deportment, and she's always asking them, "Why do you not go home? Wouldn't your life there be so much happier?" The answer is usually yes, but they want more money. The only reasons she's received from them, ever, is money and/or a free high school education for their kids (which I empathize with, even though I don't support it). They could make enough in Mexico to live, but they wouldn't have as much income. Plus, imagine - if I was getting $500 a month in disability in the states, but if I could sneak into Canada illegally (through, say, a desert that might kill me, etc), make $2,000 a month, and sneak back, would I do it? I hope not, I like to think I'm a bit more honest than that. And some Mexican citizens are the same way - they went through legal channels to get the right to "feed their starving children" in the U.S. But, if I did decide to sneak into Canada at night, against the law, over a private citizen's property, and in the process that private citizen found me, and held me at gunpoint while I waited for their law enforcement officers to come pick me up, and drop me off back in America, I wouldn't be offended at their lack of hospitality! I'd feel lucky I got off easily. And they're not really "taking our jobs" IMO because - have you been in a meat packing plant? I have - it's gruesome stinky work, and where I was, mostly done by Mexican immigrants, legal and not. I don't know many Americans who would want that job! Frequently, its just an issue of citizens of two countries that are comfortable with illegal activities, finding and sustaining a symbiotic relationship with each other. Unfortunately, this rancher got caught in the middle of that. Certainly, prices would likely rise on several items if we really enforced border controls to the south. And the profits of these employers who hired illegals would - rightfully - decline. But the costs of deportation, border controls, legal processes for cases like this would all decline as well. Illegal immigrants are people, good and bad, making a bad choice, for reasons that are both good and bad. I don't have to think for them or remove the negative consequences of their bad choice. We just enforce one single, very reasonable law - don't enter our country illegally. The rest is up to them. If they are unhappy with Mexico's provisions for them, they could also lobby their own government - or bribe it or start a revolution, etc., like other nations before them have done. Put that national pride to good use, I say. They're not children or mentally challenged, which is how some of these "big bad American government/employer/border patrol/citizen" arguments seem to paint them, at least in my view. That approach is also insulting to the remaining 70 percent of immigrants - hispanic or not - who spend years trying to enter the country legally. It also inspires racist reactions to very good people of hispanic descent or appearance who were born here and have no dog in the immigration fight whatsoever. Illegal immigrants aren't starving. They are poor and "chasing the dream" in their own way. It's just that their dream is funded by activities which are illegal. I don't get to break the law to make more money. Neither do you. And, although some will disgree with me, neither do they.

Great post. I agree with everything you said, except briefly on the part I bolded. I just think it's playing with fire to say that a normal person should get to act in the capacity of a official, i.e. get to kick people, threaten them, etc. The problem with looking at these things on a case by case basis is that, of course, the farmer's story here is the one we hear, so we feel for him and think "meh, what's the harm. So someone got a little afraid and got kicked". But in the broader picture, I think delegating this kind of power to everyday individuals is a bad policy. To me, that's the part that is interesting about the case. I know the line is kind of blurred here, because this guy isn't the typical "minutemen" type situation, but it's not exactly just a regular guy protecting against tresspassers either. He has used possibly more force than was maybe necessary against these people, and when he did this he was arguably acting as a proxy for an immigration official. Anyway, I really want to know how this will play out.

[lilian]

Originally Posted by Jahpson

idk. who is someone? I was just saying in my last post that this suit is pretty much pointless and a waste of time.

Again,

"Someone" was supposed to refer to who you were quoting when you said:

Originally Posted by Jahpson

I highly doubt this case will "pave the way" for others who sneak into this country.

Maybe it would have been more clear if I had said "who here ever said or even suggested that this case would 'pave the way' for other to sneak into this country?", but I didn't want to come across as rude, and or didn't want to make it sound like I was attacking someone. I'll make a note to be more clear next time.

Anyway, what I was saying was that thinking that the point of this suit is to "pave the way" for others who sneak into this country is clearly and completely missing the point.

[Jahpson]

^ I meant like illegals would have the "right" to trespass on property that is not overseen by the authorities. Given that this trial fell through and they won.

[lilian]

Originally Posted by bisousx

ITA. There is a process that every immigrant must go through in order to become naturalized or citizens, and it kind of appalls me how many people ignore it or let their visa's expire. Even if you don't want to do go through the process the long way, the system is easy to worm around, and even then people don't bother to get their greencards

I have to disagree here. The system is so difficult and complicated, especially for people with limited financial means. Trust me, I've been through it. It's a long wait (which is fine), it's very expensive, and there are only a few narrow roads that eventually lead to a greencard. No one would want to pick fruit for nothing and live without a SSN if they had any better options...it's just that it's very difficult to find a legal way in.

Personally, kind of OT, but I think immigration in the US really needs to change before all the border states go bankrupt: more border control by actual, qualified officers, more domestic crackdown to stop people from actually employing illegal aliens, and then some serious reform to the immigration policy. This will never happen..but I guess I can always dream though..

[Vegas Long Legs]

Originally Posted by DiorDeVille

And they're not really "taking our jobs" IMO because - have you been in a meat packing plant? I have - it's gruesome stinky work, and where I was, mostly done by Mexican immigrants, legal and not. I don't know many Americans who would want that job! Frequently, its just an issue of citizens of two countries that are comfortable with illegal activities, finding and sustaining a symbiotic relationship with each other. Unfortunately, this rancher got caught in the middle of that.

I'm from the midwest & older than most on here. Meat packing plant jobs used to be a ticket to a nice life for many. Until the companies in the 80's reorganized/filed bankruptcy to get out of union contracts & now pay crappy wages for what they do. That's why so many illegals work there.

[alely]

I am starting to wonder if any of you even know how much a worker in mexico makes.

Lets for starters say a teacher, I have an aquaintance who crossed the border illegally, who has his teaching license in mexico and was a teacher before he came here, he now works in the fields. You wanna know how much he made as a teahcer in a day? 100 to 200 pesos or with the current economy 7 to 13 dollars. A. DAY.

And honestly that's just if you're educated, if you aren't you end up making anywhere from 10 pesos a day (.70 cents) to 60 pesos a day ($4)

I fully understand the legality of the issue but most people don't seem to understand the circumstances surrounding it. Yes you might go to Cabo San Lucas or Acapulco but never really stray far enough to see how bad conditions really are.

And people can't say that the US has nothing to do with this, because the US is a great enabler. Because I know for a fact that if the US wanted to really close the border and have as little illegal traffic as possible coming through then that would be accomplished. It's just greedy business that lobby washington and make sure that the border stays open so like, as other posters have said, they can keep hiring cheap labor. Not to mentiion the bad decision and interference in Latin America/central america and mexico by the monroe doctorine and policies during the mid to late 1900s
that caused upheaval and god only knows how much damage to the said countries by the US. Ramifications which are still being felt today.