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omgsweet · Oct 23rd, 2009, 11:58 AM

http://news.aol.com/article/northwes...hoots%2F732996

WASHINGTON (Oct. 23) -- A Northwest Airlines flight from San Diego to Minneapolis overshot the Minneapolis airport by about 150 miles Wednesday evening, and federal investigators are looking into whether the pilots had become distracted, as they claimed, or perhaps fallen asleep.

Air traffic controllers lost radio communication with the Airbus A320, carrying 147 passengers and an unknown number of crew, when it was flying at 37,000 feet, according to the National Transportation Safety Board. There was no communication with Flight 188 for more than an hour as it approached the airport, the board said.

When air traffic controllers finally made contact with the pilot, his answers were so vague that controllers feared the plane might have been hijacked, according to a source familiar with the incident.

The controllers in Minneapolis ordered the pilot to make a series of unnecessary maneuvers to convince them the pilots were in control of the flight, the source said, adding that fighter jets were poised in Madison, Wisc., but were never deployed.

Controllers tracked the aircraft on radar as it flew over its intended destination -- Minneapolis-St. Paul International/Wold-Chamberlain Airport -- and continued northeast for about 150 miles over the next 16 minutes. The airport's controllers then re-established communication with crew members, who said they had become distracted, the safety board said.

"The crew stated they were in a heated discussion over airline policy and they lost situational awareness," the board said in a news release.

A federal official, who asked not to be identified, told CNN that air traffic controllers in the Denver area had communicated with the pilot, but the pilots were "nonresponsive" during a subsequent communication. The plane was handed off to controllers in Minneapolis as a NORDO, the designation for "no radio communications."

The Federal Aviation Administration contacted the airline and had its dispatcher try to reach the pilots, the federal official said.

Doug Church, spokesman for the National Air Traffic Controllers Association, said numerous controllers were involved in efforts to contact the plane, including text messages, and that "concern escalated" as the pilot neared the airport "without making any effort to descend."

Ultimately, controllers contacted two other Northwest planes, asking them to try to reach Flight 188 through its last known frequency. One of those planes succeeded, prompting the pilot to contact Minneapolis, Church said.

"It was pretty good ATC (air traffic control) detective work," he added.

An NTSB spokesman said the agency is examining all possible explanations for the incident, including whether the pilots might have fallen asleep.

The safety board said it is scheduling an interview with the crew and has secured the plane's cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder for examination. The recorders capture cockpit conversations and other noises.

Reported instances of two pilots falling asleep are rare. In August, the safety board concluded its investigation into a Feb. 13, 2008, incident in which two pilots aboard a Go airlines flight fell asleep and traveled 26 miles beyond the destination of Hilo, Hawaii, before waking and contacting air traffic controllers.

Northwest Airlines is part of Delta Air Lines, which issued a statement Thursday, saying it is "cooperating with the FAA and NTSB in their investigation, as well as conducting our own internal investigation. The pilots have been relieved from active flying pending the completion of these investigations."

It said Flight 188 landed safely in Minneapolis just after 9 p.m.

Delta suffered another major embarrassment this week when a Delta pilot landed a passenger jet on a taxiway at Atlanta-Hartsfield International Airport instead of the runway. The NTSB also is investigating that case.

© 2009 Cable News Network. Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
2009-10-23 06:28:58

twin53 · Oct 23rd, 2009, 12:02 PM

that could have been disastrous

omgsweet · Oct 23rd, 2009, 12:14 PM

I still dont understand why they passed the airport or why it took them so long to realize that they had flown over the airport. The flight attendents know when they are suppose to land. Did they question what was going on in the cock pit?

There are so many unanswered questions.

domlee · Oct 23rd, 2009, 12:16 PM

Those pilots are going to lose their jobs.

omgsweet · Oct 23rd, 2009, 12:58 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2009/TRAVEL/10/23....by/index.html

Airliner overshoots airport; controllers feared hijacking

By Mike M. Ahlers
CNN

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A passenger flight from San Diego, California, to Minneapolis, Minnesota, overshot its destination airport by about 150 miles Wednesday, and federal investigators are looking into whether the pilots had become distracted, as they claimed, or perhaps fallen asleep.

Air traffic controllers lost radio communication with the Northwest Airlines Airbus A320, carrying 147 passengers and an unknown number of crew, when it was flying at 37,000 feet, according to the National Transportation Safety Board. There was no communication with Flight 188 for more than an hour as it approached the airport, the board said.

When air traffic controllers finally made contact with the pilot, his answers were so vague that controllers feared the plane might have been hijacked, according to a source familiar with the incident.

The controllers in Minneapolis ordered the pilot to make a series of unnecessary maneuvers to convince them the pilots were in control of the flight, the source said, adding that fighter jets were poised in Madison, Wisconsin, but were never deployed. Watch how Flight 188 drama unfolded »

Controllers tracked the aircraft on radar as it flew over its intended destination -- Minneapolis-St. Paul International/Wold-Chamberlain Airport -- and continued northeast for about 150 miles over the next 16 minutes. The airport's controllers then re-established communication with crew members, who said they had become distracted, the safety board said.

"The crew stated they were in a heated discussion over airline policy and they lost situational awareness," the board said in a news release.

A federal official, who asked not to be identified, told CNN that air traffic controllers in the Denver, Colorado, area had communicated with the pilot, but the pilots were "nonresponsive" during a subsequent communication. The plane was handed off to controllers in Minneapolis as a NORDO, the designation for "no radio communications."

The Federal Aviation Administration contacted the airline and had its dispatcher try to reach the pilots, the federal official said.

Doug Church, spokesman for the National Air Traffic Controllers Association, said numerous controllers were involved in efforts to contact the plane, including text messages, and that "concern escalated" as the pilot neared the airport "without making any effort to descend."

Ultimately, controllers contacted two other Northwest planes, asking them to try to reach Flight 188 through its last known frequency. One of those planes succeeded, prompting the pilot to contact Minneapolis, Church said.

"It was pretty good ATC [air traffic control] detective work," he added.

An NTSB spokesman said the agency is examining all possible explanations for the incident, including whether the pilots might have fallen asleep.

The safety board said it is scheduling an interview with the crew and has secured the plane's cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder for examination. The recorders capture cockpit conversations and other noises.

Reported instances of two pilots falling asleep are rare. In August, the safety board concluded its investigation into a February 13, 2008, incident in which two pilots aboard a Go airlines flight fell asleep and traveled 26 miles beyond the destination of Hilo, Hawaii, before waking and contacting air traffic controllers.

Northwest Airlines is part of Delta Air Lines, which issued a statement Thursday, saying it is "cooperating with the FAA and NTSB in their investigation, as well as conducting our own internal investigation. The pilots have been relieved from active flying pending the completion of these investigations."

It said Flight 188 landed safely in Minneapolis just after 9 p.m.

Delta suffered another major embarrassment this week when a Delta pilot landed a passenger jet on a taxiway at Atlanta-Hartsfield International Airport instead of the runway. The NTSB is investigating that case as well.

surferchick2 · Oct 23rd, 2009, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by omgsweet

I still dont understand why they passed the airport or why it took them so long to realize that they had flown over the airport. The flight attendents know when they are suppose to land. Did they question what was going on in the cock pit?

There are so many unanswered questions.

It was only 16 minutes. Flight Attendant wouldn't know if they passed over Minneapolis or know that ATC was attempting to contact the cockpit for the last hour. Even if it had been longer, they could prolong the flight due to weather or hit headwinds. Sometimes they make up 30 minutes in flight. Also, once it hits sterile cockpit, flight attendants aren't supposed to contact the captain unless there's cause for concern. Under the circumstances, in the cabin, it would have felt like a normal flight as any other.

omgsweet · Oct 23rd, 2009, 01:44 PM

On the news last night, they said that the flight landed about 2 hours late. I think they would have noticed that much of a delay. But maybe I heard wrong. I did read the 16 minutes thing in these articles.

bagaholic85 · Oct 23rd, 2009, 02:07 PM

^^maybe because everything is so scheduled that to reschedule a landing it added another 1.5 hours?

either way such a bizarre story. and really scary...

surferchick2 · Oct 23rd, 2009, 05:31 PM

Possibly they missed their landing slot and had to get in line since msp is a very busy airport. Even so, I'd be surprised if they had enough fuel to even circle for two extra hrs is it wasn't done in anticipation of weather, etc. 150 really isn't very far at all and 15 minutes is about right. I'm sure the cabin crew knew long before that 2 hr mark, although the time delay doesn't make sense at all.

redney · Oct 23rd, 2009, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by domlee

Those pilots are going to lose their jobs.

Call me a terrible person but I hope they do. There is simply no room for irresponsibility in the cockpit in commercial aviation. Regardless if they were in a heated discussion or sleeping, it's totally unacceptable to be completely incommunicado with ATC and unaware of their situational surroundings when the safety of passengers and crew is in their hands.

amanda · Oct 23rd, 2009, 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by surferchick2

Possibly they missed their landing slot and had to get in line since msp is a very busy airport. Even so, I'd be surprised if they had enough fuel to even circle for two extra hrs is it wasn't done in anticipation of weather, etc. 150 really isn't very far at all and 15 minutes is about right. I'm sure the cabin crew knew long before that 2 hr mark, although the time delay doesn't make sense at all.

Yeah, that was the first thing that occurred to me - I once was on a flight that missed its landing slot at LaGuardia because we had a delay entering DC airspace from Atlanta, and we had to circle NYC for quite a while waiting for a new landing slot. So even if they only overshot by 15 minutes, it's not surprising that it would have taken much longer than that to actually put the plane on the ground.

ayla · Oct 23rd, 2009, 06:20 PM

Yikes. I really hope it doesn't have anything to do with the other recent NYT story about pilots - http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/14/bu...e%20cut&st=cse

surferchick2 · Oct 23rd, 2009, 06:29 PM

Some more info. They were supposed to land at 8p, was contacted at 815, then placed in a holding pattern until they could be reslotted and finally landed at 9p, after circling for 30. They couldn't deplane immediately so officials could board first, so maybe that's where the extra hour came in, when they could finally deplane the aircraft. I'm sure they wouldn't have had the fuel to circle and extra hour. They usually only add extra in anticipation of needing it, like severe headwinds or weather ( in case they can't land and have to circle or divert). Obviously they didn't think they'd do something so irresponsible.

http://www.twincities.com/news/ci_13619032?source=rss

boxermom · Oct 23rd, 2009, 07:52 PM

I read that a flight attendant did knock on the cockpit door when she realized they had passed the airport and they weren't descending.

DH is a retired airline pilot and he thinks they were asleep because in the cockpit they have regular radio contact with various air traffic control centers as they fly across the country. He said if he didn't hear anything on the radio for about 10 minutes or so, he would check to see if the radio was on the correct frequency. Pilots would never go a long time without some contact with controllers, if nothing more than to say, "Kansas City, you still there?" for example.

Obviously more info will emerge, but I would never want to be on a plane with these 2 at the controls.

HauteMama · Oct 23rd, 2009, 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by redney

Call me a terrible person but I hope they do. There is simply no room for irresponsibility in the cockpit in commercial aviation. Regardless if they were in a heated discussion or sleeping, it's totally unacceptable to be completely incommunicado with ATC and unaware of their situational surroundings when the safety of passengers and crew is in their hands.

I agree. I cannot say that being in a heated discussion and totally ignoring or forgetting your location and responsibilities is any better than having fallen asleep. No matter what actually happened, these pilots really dropped the ball and potentially endangered many lives.

Oct 23rd, 2009, 11:58 AM	#1
omgsweet OP omg...cute bag!! Joined: Apr 2007 Location: Scottsdale, Az Posts: 2,963	Detla/Northwest Jet Overshoots Airport by 150 Miles http://news.aol.com/article/northwes...hoots%2F732996 WASHINGTON (Oct. 23) -- A Northwest Airlines flight from San Diego to Minneapolis overshot the Minneapolis airport by about 150 miles Wednesday evening, and federal investigators are looking into whether the pilots had become distracted, as they claimed, or perhaps fallen asleep. Air traffic controllers lost radio communication with the Airbus A320, carrying 147 passengers and an unknown number of crew, when it was flying at 37,000 feet, according to the National Transportation Safety Board. There was no communication with Flight 188 for more than an hour as it approached the airport, the board said. When air traffic controllers finally made contact with the pilot, his answers were so vague that controllers feared the plane might have been hijacked, according to a source familiar with the incident. The controllers in Minneapolis ordered the pilot to make a series of unnecessary maneuvers to convince them the pilots were in control of the flight, the source said, adding that fighter jets were poised in Madison, Wisc., but were never deployed. Controllers tracked the aircraft on radar as it flew over its intended destination -- Minneapolis-St. Paul International/Wold-Chamberlain Airport -- and continued northeast for about 150 miles over the next 16 minutes. The airport's controllers then re-established communication with crew members, who said they had become distracted, the safety board said. "The crew stated they were in a heated discussion over airline policy and they lost situational awareness," the board said in a news release. A federal official, who asked not to be identified, told CNN that air traffic controllers in the Denver area had communicated with the pilot, but the pilots were "nonresponsive" during a subsequent communication. The plane was handed off to controllers in Minneapolis as a NORDO, the designation for "no radio communications." The Federal Aviation Administration contacted the airline and had its dispatcher try to reach the pilots, the federal official said. Doug Church, spokesman for the National Air Traffic Controllers Association, said numerous controllers were involved in efforts to contact the plane, including text messages, and that "concern escalated" as the pilot neared the airport "without making any effort to descend." Ultimately, controllers contacted two other Northwest planes, asking them to try to reach Flight 188 through its last known frequency. One of those planes succeeded, prompting the pilot to contact Minneapolis, Church said. "It was pretty good ATC (air traffic control) detective work," he added. An NTSB spokesman said the agency is examining all possible explanations for the incident, including whether the pilots might have fallen asleep. The safety board said it is scheduling an interview with the crew and has secured the plane's cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder for examination. The recorders capture cockpit conversations and other noises. Reported instances of two pilots falling asleep are rare. In August, the safety board concluded its investigation into a Feb. 13, 2008, incident in which two pilots aboard a Go airlines flight fell asleep and traveled 26 miles beyond the destination of Hilo, Hawaii, before waking and contacting air traffic controllers. Northwest Airlines is part of Delta Air Lines, which issued a statement Thursday, saying it is "cooperating with the FAA and NTSB in their investigation, as well as conducting our own internal investigation. The pilots have been relieved from active flying pending the completion of these investigations." It said Flight 188 landed safely in Minneapolis just after 9 p.m. Delta suffered another major embarrassment this week when a Delta pilot landed a passenger jet on a taxiway at Atlanta-Hartsfield International Airport instead of the runway. The NTSB also is investigating that case. © 2009 Cable News Network. Turner Broadcasting System, Inc. All Rights Reserved. 2009-10-23 06:28:58
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Oct 23rd, 2009, 12:02 PM	#2
twin53 Member Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 4,181	that could have been disastrous
twin53 Member Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 4,181

Oct 23rd, 2009, 12:14 PM	#3
omgsweet OP omg...cute bag!! Joined: Apr 2007 Location: Scottsdale, Az Posts: 2,963	I still dont understand why they passed the airport or why it took them so long to realize that they had flown over the airport. The flight attendents know when they are suppose to land. Did they question what was going on in the cock pit? There are so many unanswered questions.
	__________________ How to invest for 2009 and Beyond Protect Yourself Against Institutional Traders

Oct 23rd, 2009, 12:58 PM	#5
omgsweet OP omg...cute bag!! Joined: Apr 2007 Location: Scottsdale, Az Posts: 2,963	http://www.cnn.com/2009/TRAVEL/10/23....by/index.html Airliner overshoots airport; controllers feared hijacking By Mike M. Ahlers CNN WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A passenger flight from San Diego, California, to Minneapolis, Minnesota, overshot its destination airport by about 150 miles Wednesday, and federal investigators are looking into whether the pilots had become distracted, as they claimed, or perhaps fallen asleep. Air traffic controllers lost radio communication with the Northwest Airlines Airbus A320, carrying 147 passengers and an unknown number of crew, when it was flying at 37,000 feet, according to the National Transportation Safety Board. There was no communication with Flight 188 for more than an hour as it approached the airport, the board said. When air traffic controllers finally made contact with the pilot, his answers were so vague that controllers feared the plane might have been hijacked, according to a source familiar with the incident. The controllers in Minneapolis ordered the pilot to make a series of unnecessary maneuvers to convince them the pilots were in control of the flight, the source said, adding that fighter jets were poised in Madison, Wisconsin, but were never deployed. Watch how Flight 188 drama unfolded » Controllers tracked the aircraft on radar as it flew over its intended destination -- Minneapolis-St. Paul International/Wold-Chamberlain Airport -- and continued northeast for about 150 miles over the next 16 minutes. The airport's controllers then re-established communication with crew members, who said they had become distracted, the safety board said. "The crew stated they were in a heated discussion over airline policy and they lost situational awareness," the board said in a news release. A federal official, who asked not to be identified, told CNN that air traffic controllers in the Denver, Colorado, area had communicated with the pilot, but the pilots were "nonresponsive" during a subsequent communication. The plane was handed off to controllers in Minneapolis as a NORDO, the designation for "no radio communications." The Federal Aviation Administration contacted the airline and had its dispatcher try to reach the pilots, the federal official said. Doug Church, spokesman for the National Air Traffic Controllers Association, said numerous controllers were involved in efforts to contact the plane, including text messages, and that "concern escalated" as the pilot neared the airport "without making any effort to descend." Ultimately, controllers contacted two other Northwest planes, asking them to try to reach Flight 188 through its last known frequency. One of those planes succeeded, prompting the pilot to contact Minneapolis, Church said. "It was pretty good ATC [air traffic control] detective work," he added. An NTSB spokesman said the agency is examining all possible explanations for the incident, including whether the pilots might have fallen asleep. The safety board said it is scheduling an interview with the crew and has secured the plane's cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder for examination. The recorders capture cockpit conversations and other noises. Reported instances of two pilots falling asleep are rare. In August, the safety board concluded its investigation into a February 13, 2008, incident in which two pilots aboard a Go airlines flight fell asleep and traveled 26 miles beyond the destination of Hilo, Hawaii, before waking and contacting air traffic controllers. Northwest Airlines is part of Delta Air Lines, which issued a statement Thursday, saying it is "cooperating with the FAA and NTSB in their investigation, as well as conducting our own internal investigation. The pilots have been relieved from active flying pending the completion of these investigations." It said Flight 188 landed safely in Minneapolis just after 9 p.m. Delta suffered another major embarrassment this week when a Delta pilot landed a passenger jet on a taxiway at Atlanta-Hartsfield International Airport instead of the runway. The NTSB is investigating that case as well.
	__________________ How to invest for 2009 and Beyond Protect Yourself Against Institutional Traders

Oct 23rd, 2009, 01:44 PM	#7
omgsweet OP omg...cute bag!! Joined: Apr 2007 Location: Scottsdale, Az Posts: 2,963	On the news last night, they said that the flight landed about 2 hours late. I think they would have noticed that much of a delay. But maybe I heard wrong. I did read the 16 minutes thing in these articles.
	__________________ How to invest for 2009 and Beyond Protect Yourself Against Institutional Traders

Oct 23rd, 2009, 12:16 PM	#4
domlee Member Joined: Jan 2007 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 952	Those pilots are going to lose their jobs.

Oct 23rd, 2009, 02:07 PM	#8
bagaholic85 Member Joined: Sep 2007 Location: i <3 ny Posts: 5,087	^^maybe because everything is so scheduled that to reschedule a landing it added another 1.5 hours? either way such a bizarre story. and really scary...

Oct 23rd, 2009, 05:31 PM	#9
surferchick2 Member Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,118	Possibly they missed their landing slot and had to get in line since msp is a very busy airport. Even so, I'd be surprised if they had enough fuel to even circle for two extra hrs is it wasn't done in anticipation of weather, etc. 150 really isn't very far at all and 15 minutes is about right. I'm sure the cabin crew knew long before that 2 hr mark, although the time delay doesn't make sense at all.
surferchick2 Member Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,118

Oct 23rd, 2009, 06:20 PM	#12
ayla Gangsta Luv♥ Joined: Oct 2005 Location: Toronto, Ontario Posts: 21,246	Yikes. I really hope it doesn't have anything to do with the other recent NYT story about pilots - http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/14/bu...e%20cut&st=cse
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Oct 23rd, 2009, 06:29 PM	#13
surferchick2 Member Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,118	Some more info. They were supposed to land at 8p, was contacted at 815, then placed in a holding pattern until they could be reslotted and finally landed at 9p, after circling for 30. They couldn't deplane immediately so officials could board first, so maybe that's where the extra hour came in, when they could finally deplane the aircraft. I'm sure they wouldn't have had the fuel to circle and extra hour. They usually only add extra in anticipation of needing it, like severe headwinds or weather ( in case they can't land and have to circle or divert). Obviously they didn't think they'd do something so irresponsible. http://www.twincities.com/news/ci_13619032?source=rss
surferchick2 Member Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,118	Last edited by surferchick2; Oct 23rd, 2009 at 06:33 PM.

Oct 23rd, 2009, 07:52 PM	#14
boxermom Member Joined: Aug 2006 Location: North Carolina Posts: 13,688	I read that a flight attendant did knock on the cockpit door when she realized they had passed the airport and they weren't descending. DH is a retired airline pilot and he thinks they were asleep because in the cockpit they have regular radio contact with various air traffic control centers as they fly across the country. He said if he didn't hear anything on the radio for about 10 minutes or so, he would check to see if the radio was on the correct frequency. Pilots would never go a long time without some contact with controllers, if nothing more than to say, "Kansas City, you still there?" for example. Obviously more info will emerge, but I would never want to be on a plane with these 2 at the controls.

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