Buyer Wants to Avoid Customs Tax

#31
International Customs LAW!!!...



Who is responsible for the information entered in the declaration?


You as an importer are the debtor, which means that you are responsible for the information entered in the customs declaration. You are also responsible for ensuring that the duties and taxes are paid. Even if you entrust an agent to issue your declaration,
it is you who finally are responsible for that the entered information is correct. The agent is thus not responsible, even though he/she happened to be the one who filled in and presented the declaration on your behalf.
 
#33
BritAbroad said:
This is accurate.
It is mail fraud and it's illegal. The seller can list "not responsible if no insurance purchased" but it means nothing. If the item goes missing the buyer can file and INR and the seller will only be able to claim the insured value - maybe. You have to still prove that value and if the Paypal invoice shows a different amount then you are exposed for fraud.
Even if it's a marked gift, you still have to prove its value.
Also, there is Customs to consider. I once bought bedding Internationally on ebay. I never asked the seller to undervalue it but she did. Customs randomly opened it and then seized it and contacted me asking to provide proof of payment, which of course showed I paid significantly more. Well then I got flagged, every single package I had delivered to me at that address afterwards got opened by Customs, it was a nightmare. The seller also got into trouble and was frustrated at me, but I never asked her to do it and she never told me she had.

I feel sorry for people who have to pay high taxes but I'm not willing to risk breaking the law to help them out. Why would I risk those repercussions for a complete stranger?
All you need is a pencil pushing Customs officer to open your package and demand proof of payment and you, the seller, risk charges - not the buyer.
Click to expand...

Sellers have on occasion undervalued things they sent to me too, and I never asked them to do so. If I got in trouble like you did, I'd be so upset.

Getting flagged is what happens to you if you get caught not declaring things you are bringing into the country as well. After that, plan on getting stopped and searched every time you come into the country.

Not worth it.
 
#34
JustAgUrL said:
so fact is.... the customs slip OUTGOING from the USA means nothing to the USA....
ONLY to the importing country.....

Customs is ONLY assessed in the IMPORTING county.....
Click to expand...

Customs may be assessed in the importing country, but if you read the customs declaration that US exporters are required to sign, it is a violation of US federal law to falsely state the value of any item. So it doesn't mean nothing to the US.
 
#35
BritAbroad said:
This is accurate.
It is mail fraud and it's illegal. The seller can list "not responsible if no insurance purchased" but it means nothing. If the item goes missing the buyer can file and INR and the seller will only be able to claim the insured value - maybe. You have to still prove that value and if the Paypal invoice shows a different amount then you are exposed for fraud.
Even if it's a marked gift, you still have to prove its value.
Also, there is Customs to consider. I once bought bedding Internationally on ebay. I never asked the seller to undervalue it but she did. Customs randomly opened it and then seized it and contacted me asking to provide proof of payment, which of course showed I paid significantly more. Well then I got flagged, every single package I had delivered to me at that address afterwards got opened by Customs, it was a nightmare. The seller also got into trouble and was frustrated at me, but I never asked her to do it and she never told me she had.

I feel sorry for people who have to pay high taxes but I'm not willing to risk breaking the law to help them out. Why would I risk those repercussions for a complete stranger?
All you need is a pencil pushing Customs officer to open your package and demand proof of payment and you, the seller, risk charges - not the buyer.
Click to expand...



how did the seller get in trouble????

and as it always is.... the ITEM was not seized.... It was reassessed and you paid the amount on the actual sale...... NO PRISON time.... No extra fines.....
You paid the higher value and got your item......


and seller did not go to prison..... and I REALLY don't think that British Customs
contacted her and called the FED's on her.......

So, how much trouble did the seller really get into and with WHOM????
she was not signing on HER behalf..... she was signing on YOUR behalf.... she would NOT get into any trouble.....


the reason why the seller would not get into any real trouble is that they are signing on behalf of the buyer...... It is up to the BUYER to be responsible
for the declared value.... as when the seller signed it it was really YOU who
is responsible for that signature.....


once it is in customs in the importing country, yes, they can open
it and reassess the value..... It is VERY rare and it does not get seized....
It just gets revalued and the importer pays the higher value....
OR... can do in in person customs declaration where the IMPORTER signs
a document stating the value of the item.....

sometimes there is no proof of what a person paid for an item....
this is why there are other ways of declaring the customs value.....
 
#36
lulilu said:
Sellers have on occasion undervalued things they sent to me too, and I never asked them to do so. If I got in trouble like you did, I'd be so upset.

Getting flagged is what happens to you if you get caught not declaring things you are bringing into the country as well. After that, plan on getting stopped and searched every time you come into the country.

Not worth it.
Click to expand...

I agree... I understand, no one likes these additional taxes, but you should always be mindful of the risks and consequences...people can and do get caught. I was so happy when I finally sold that house and moved and the searches stopped.
 
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#37
lulilu said:
Customs may be assessed in the importing country, but if you read the customs declaration that US exporters are required to sign, it is a violation of US federal law to falsely state the value of any item. So it doesn't mean nothing to the US.
Click to expand...


when they sign it.... they are NOT signing it as the EXPORTER.....
they are a PROXY for the importer.....

That is just a fact.... You are signing it in place of the BUYER......

Value is kinda subjective..... there is sale value, retail value, wholesale value, REPLACEMENT value..... and yes, what you actually paid.....

But one person can buy an item on ebay for $50.... then somebody else
pays $100...... for the exact same item.....

does that mean that same item is really worth $100.??? or $50????

This is why Value is VERY subjective......

many of the mail forwarding services have the IMPORTER declare the value of the package the the service will be exporting...... Since the buyers of the service are the ones who are responsible for the customs declaration anyway..... the buyers get to assess the value.....
 
#38
JustAgUrL said:
how did the seller get in trouble????

and as it always is.... the ITEM was not seized.... It was reassessed and you paid the amount on the actual sale...... NO PRISON time.... No extra fines.....
You paid the higher value and got your item......


and seller did not go to prison..... and I REALLY don't think that British Customs
contacted her and called the FED's on her.......

So, how much trouble did the seller really get into and with WHOM????
she was not signing on HER behalf..... she was signing on YOUR behalf.... she would NOT get into any trouble.....


the reason why the seller would not get into any real trouble is that they are signing on behalf of the buyer...... It is up to the BUYER to be responsible
for the declared value.... as when the seller signed it it was really YOU who
is responsible for that signature.....


once it is in customs in the importing country, yes, they can open
it and reassess the value..... It is VERY rare and it does not get seized....
It just gets revalued and the importer pays the higher value....
OR... can do in in person customs declaration where the IMPORTER signs
a document stating the value of the item.....

sometimes there is no proof of what a person paid for an item....
this is why there are other ways of declaring the customs value.....
Click to expand...

British Customs...prison...FEDS? What are you talking about? I think your enthusiasm to state your opinion superceded that fact I made no mention of either, I'm in Canada, the seller was from the US.
Nobody is legally responsible for the signature of another person, period.
As for the rest, any further response would be moot, it seems like you're taking this way too personally and emotionally, why flame the fire...
 
#39
JustAgUrL said:
when they sign it.... they are NOT signing it as the EXPORTER.....
they are a PROXY for the importer.....

That is just a fact.... You are signing it in place of the BUYER......

Value is kinda subjective..... there is sale value, retail value, wholesale value, REPLACEMENT value..... and yes, what you actually paid.....

But one person can buy an item on ebay for $50.... then somebody else
pays $100...... for the exact same item.....

does that mean that same item is really worth $100.??? or $50????

This is why Value is VERY subjective......

many of the mail forwarding services have the IMPORTER declare the value of the package the the service will be exporting...... Since the buyers of the service are the ones who are responsible for the customs declaration anyway..... the buyers get to assess the value.....
Click to expand...





I'm not quite sure what point you are making, to be entirely candid. However, I do know that on US Customs declarations, the Seller/Exporter completes the forms and signs them under penalty of perjury attesting to the honesty of the statements on the forms. I don't know how a Seller can be a "proxy" or "agent" of a Buyer without any knowledge of that on the part of a Buyer - at least under US law.

Suffice it to say, lying on US Customs declarations is a violation of Federal law and, though rarely prosecuted, is still unacceptable.

As someone else said early on in this thread, if a Buyer does not want to pay Customs fees, they should not have international transactions.

Yes, value is subjective, but for purposes of eBay sales, one can simply state that the value of the item is what the Buyer paid for it. That should provide adequate information should Customs agents question the information provided on the customs dec.
 
#40
JustAgUrL said:
how did the seller get in trouble????

and as it always is.... the ITEM was not seized.... It was reassessed and you paid the amount on the actual sale...... NO PRISON time.... No extra fines.....
You paid the higher value and got your item......


and seller did not go to prison..... and I REALLY don't think that British Customs
contacted her and called the FED's on her.......

So, how much trouble did the seller really get into and with WHOM????
she was not signing on HER behalf..... she was signing on YOUR behalf.... she would NOT get into any trouble.....


the reason why the seller would not get into any real trouble is that they are signing on behalf of the buyer...... It is up to the BUYER to be responsible
for the declared value.... as when the seller signed it it was really YOU who
is responsible for that signature.....


once it is in customs in the importing country, yes, they can open
it and reassess the value..... It is VERY rare and it does not get seized....
It just gets revalued and the importer pays the higher value....
OR... can do in in person customs declaration where the IMPORTER signs
a document stating the value of the item.....

sometimes there is no proof of what a person paid for an item....
this is why there are other ways of declaring the customs value.....
Click to expand...

In the interest of fact and law for the benefit and protection of tPF members, as written by Canadian Government:

"Understating the value of imported and exported goods is illegal, the items may be seized and you may lose the goods permanently or pay a penalty to get them back.
Depending on the type of goods and the circumstances involved, the penalty imposed may range from 25% to 70% of the value of the seized goods.
Individuals are subject to arrest under the Customs Act. There will be a criminal investigation and charges could be laid against the individuals involved. Upon conviction, the maximum penalty for undervaluing goods that are imported into Canada is five years imprisonment and/or a $500,000.00 fine."

JustAgUrL, if you want to commit fraud, if you want to discuss your doing so and advise others on the merits of it on a public forum, by all means, but I want no part of it, to the potential detriment to tPF.
 
#41
BritAbroad said:
British Customs...prison...FEDS? What are you talking about? I think your enthusiasm to state your opinion superceded that fact I made no mention of either, I'm in Canada, the seller was from the US.
Nobody is legally responsible for the signature of another person, period.
As for the rest, any further response would be moot, it seems like you're taking this way too personally and emotionally, why flame the fire...
Click to expand...


you said your seller got in trouble for not declaring the correct amount.....

how did your seller get in trouble????

and what happened to her after she got in trouble....

I am only going by what YOU said....
 
#42
Luvbolide said:
I'm not quite sure what point you are making, to be entirely candid. However, I do know that on US Customs declarations, the Seller/Exporter completes the forms and signs them under penalty of perjury attesting to the honesty of the statements on the forms. I don't know how a Seller can be a "proxy" or "agent" of a Buyer without any knowledge of that on the part of a Buyer - at least under US law.

Suffice it to say, lying on US Customs declarations is a violation of Federal law and, though rarely prosecuted, is still unacceptable.

As someone else said early on in this thread, if a Buyer does not want to pay Customs fees, they should not have international transactions.

Yes, value is subjective, but for purposes of eBay sales, one can simply state that the value of the item is what the Buyer paid for it. That should provide adequate information should Customs agents question the information provided on the customs dec.
Click to expand...


Those customs slips are NOT USA only they are the same world wide....

Those slips no matter how you slice it, are signed by you as a PROXY for the IMPORTER.......

That is just a FACT....

This is not a US Federal law.... NOT a British law..... This is a UNIVERSAL
Customs enforcement law.....

Under customs law, you as the importer are legally responsible for the information on the declaration; therefore it is in your own interest to ensure, wherever possible, that the sender abroad completes the declaration accurately and in full.



this is why NOBODY has EVER been prosecuted for filling out that form
declaring a lesser value.....

this is why the sender would NEVER get in trouble for signing that form,
cuz they are NOT doing it as an exporter.... they are signing as a proxy
for the IMPORTER.....

I don't care what value people want to put on the slip.....

I just care that for ONE... they don't lie about these penalties...
and that they understand what that signature actually means.....

There is a whole lot of false information on this thread.....

I am just stating the facts.... and fact is.... when you sign that customs slip
you are doing it as a PROXY to the actual IMPORTER.... not an an exporter....

this was taken off the British Customs web site......

Under customs law, you as the importer are legally responsible for the information on the declaration; therefore it is in your own interest to ensure, wherever possible, that the sender abroad completes the declaration accurately and in full.



here is a link to that info....

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channels...ntent&id=HMCE_CL_000014&propertyType=document
 
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#43
Also, there is Customs to consider. I once bought bedding Internationally on ebay. I never asked the seller to undervalue it but she did. Customs randomly opened it and then seized it and contacted me asking to provide proof of payment, which of course showed I paid significantly more. Well then I got flagged, every single package I had delivered to me at that address afterwards got opened by Customs, it was a nightmare. The seller also got into trouble and was frustrated at me, but I never asked her to do it and she never told me she had.


How did your seller get in trouble????
 
#44
Luvbolide said:
I'm not quite sure what point you are making, to be entirely candid. However, I do know that on US Customs declarations, the Seller/Exporter completes the forms and signs them under penalty of perjury attesting to the honesty of the statements on the forms. I don't know how a Seller can be a "proxy" or "agent" of a Buyer without any knowledge of that on the part of a Buyer - at least under US law.

Suffice it to say, lying on US Customs declarations is a violation of Federal law and, though rarely prosecuted, is still unacceptable.

As someone else said early on in this thread, if a Buyer does not want to pay Customs fees, they should not have international transactions.

Yes, value is subjective, but for purposes of eBay sales, one can simply state that the value of the item is what the Buyer paid for it. That should provide adequate information should Customs agents question the information provided on the customs dec.
Click to expand...
Exactly. ^^^^

JustAgUrL, if you are trying to rationalize your own infractions, either as a buyer or a seller, that's fine. But do not offer inaccurate advice to others who might consider doing something illegal based on your say-so.

Lying on a customs form is illegal and the sender (aka seller) is responsible for attesting that they have filled out the form honestly. They are not an agent for the buyer nor is it a proxy signature.

Whether and how often either US government or the government of the buyer's country chooses to prosecute is irrelevant. Wrong is wrong and there's no excusing your way out of it.
 
#45
JustAgUrL said:
Those customs slips are NOT USA only they are the same world wide....

Those slips no matter how you slice it, are signed by you as a PROXY for the IMPORTER.......

That is just a FACT....

This is not a US Federal law.... NOT a British law..... This is a UNIVERSAL
Customs enforcement law.....

Under customs law, you as the importer are legally responsible for the information on the declaration; therefore it is in your own interest to ensure, wherever possible, that the sender abroad completes the declaration accurately and in full.



this is why NOBODY has EVER been prosecuted for filling out that form
declaring a lesser value.....

this is why the sender would NEVER get in trouble for signing that form,
cuz they are NOT doing it as an exporter.... they are signing as a proxy
for the IMPORTER.....

I don't care what value people want to put on the slip.....

I just care that for ONE... they don't lie about these penalties...
and that they understand what that signature actually means.....

There is a whole lot of false information on this thread.....

I am just stating the facts.... and fact is.... when you sign that customs slip
you are doing it as a PROXY to the actual IMPORTER.... not an an exporter....

this was taken off the British Customs web site......

Under customs law, you as the importer are legally responsible for the information on the declaration; therefore it is in your own interest to ensure, wherever possible, that the sender abroad completes the declaration accurately and in full.



here is a link to that info....

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channels...ntent&id=HMCE_CL_000014&propertyType=document
Click to expand...





I am sorry, but the information that you are setting forth is neither factually nor legally correct. Each country has their own laws governing international trade. Those of us in the US must follow US law, which requires us to complete certain documents truthfully under penalty of perjury. Different types of items are subject to different US laws. You can find out more about this by Googling US Department of Commerce or US Border Protection and Customs. There is also information available on eBay with regard to how to conduct cross-border transactions.

I don't think it makes much sense for me to continue to argue this point with you further. Suffice it to say, it is illegal in most (if not all) countries to under declare value on items being imported or exported.
 
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